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GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

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jhb171achill

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Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

 

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

 

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

 

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

 

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 

I hope this is of interest.

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Interestingly photos of ex CBP 2-4-2T 10L and T&D 2-6-0T 6T look suspiciously like both locos were painted black following overhaul in the 1950s 6T ran with her number scrawled in white o the buffer beam rather than the usual shaded transfer.

 

Is there any consensus on whether 6T was black on delivery to the C&L? I'm hoping to run one relatively clean engine on my layout but I would like to get the colour right!

 

One further question and I'm sure the answer is on the forum somewhere but I can't find it - what available paint colours come closest to CIE engine grey?

 

Cheers

 

Phil

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Phil

 

The narrow gauge engines were always grey, all through GSR and CIE times. Several, especially on the C & L, didn't receive a new coat of paint from pre 1925 days until well into the thirties, but that's not the same as GSR or CIE painting them differently.

 

While on the T & D, every locomotive was plain grey, without exception. T & D Nos. 3, 4 & 6 were on the C & L (can't recall if other T & D locos went there too), and all were grey on arrival. No. 6, at least, appears blackish in one good colour photo I've seen, but on closer inspection - on the very few clean bits there are - grey is evident. On coal trains, with coal dust flying about at Arigna, and smoke drifting about Ballinamore shed, aided and abetted by an almost total lack of any sort of cleaning, grey could look almost like a dirty black pretty quickly.

 

The shade is like a dark wagon grey; if you look at recent colour pictures of the RPSI's 186, that's very accurate. Watch, however, the smokebox - apparently, many at Whitehead thought that a grey smokebox and chimney looked odd, so they tended not to clean it like they did the rest of the loco, giving an impression in some photos that the smokebox is black! But it isn't, and wouldn't have been; the GSR / CIE grey encompassed absolutely everything, motion and all, except solely for the red buffer beams.

 

Numerals on the T & D locos were cast plates while on the T & D, pale yellow painted numerals while on the C & L.

Edited by jhb171achill
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GSR, the lining the GSR used only on the 800 class (with a lighter green than CIE) was yellow and black. CIE used only white and black. I think that one 400 class may have appeared in green with no lining, judging by one photo I saw, though it was in a filthy condition. But CIE only used gold as edging on the "eau-d-nil" (light green) lining, numerals and "snail" logos.

 

As an aside, we often see pale yellow "snails" on steam era model in grey livery. This is incorrect, and had probably come about as a result of the more obvious pale yellow used on large cabside numerals in CIE times. For grey (or rare post-1955 black), while numals are light yellow, tender logos should be "eau-de-nil" lined in gold. And, the light yellow cabside numbers were not lined in gold, or anything else!

 

Obviously, CIE lining was post-1945, which is when CIE was formed.

 

The "snail" was invented for and used by the Dublin United Tramways Company to replace their old garter logo in 1941. When the DUTC was amalgamated with the Grand Canal Company and the the GSR (road and rail sections*) to form CIE, they simply copied the DUTC logo, the "flying snail". Thus, the "snail" was never used by the GSR in any shape or form - at that stage it was a different company's logo.

 

(* The GSR had a "road" section - buses and freight haulage - by 1945, as a result of having taken over the Irish Omnibus Company some years earlier).

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Saw it, GSR 800.

 

The caption says gold lining too; this is incorrect. If you look at page 12, you'll see "Maedb" herself at Thurles in 1960, already repainted in advance of going to Cultra. If you look at this picture, the lining didn't look white either, but if you view her in Cultra you can see it is; the paint she wears today is what's in that picture.

 

Rusty metalwork on wagon frames and chassis may be one reason for the "urban myth" that ironwork is black, especially in black'n'white photos, while a dirty CIE engine looks black, but is actually grey.

 

Good photos can show a shade of paint definitively - and do most times - but research always must come first. Clearly, in that book there are several instances of white lining looking yellow, and grey engines looking black, for that matter - look at the 400 beside 800 in that top pic on p12!

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GSR, 400s were all grey until roughly 1948/9. A few received green after that - exactly the same livery carried by 800 in Cultra, though every example I've ever seen in green was absolutely filthy and badly faded and weathered; same with those "Woolwiches" which also wore green.

 

I'm not sure of colour numbers, but if you can match what Cultra have on 800 (which was actually painted by CIE in Inchicore before it went north), then you're there. Don't go by the RPSI's 461; attractive as it looks, the green isn't accurate - though the lining and gold-lined "snail" are.

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Thanks JH. Hard to tell if 401 was green or grey as she looks black, probably due to the fact that it had not been cleaned for 6 years! The first time I looked at the book, with little knowledge of anything Irish, I believed that the woolwiches had been painted a light blue! It seems the must have got sun bleached( in Ireland ?) as the green had gone this colour over the years. I knew there was something strange about 461s livery. Looks a bit too light

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I was asked recently for info on GSWR / GSR / CIE standard locomotive grey, in terms of how dark it was.

 

I think I posted a picture many moons ago, and doubtless upside down, of a model my grandfather made while he was in Inchicore, and using actual paint. However, I can't find the picture anywhere - maybe someone else knows where it is. If it can't be found, I'll take another.

 

Basically, it should not be "nearly black" - it should be just a shade darker than wagons. That's about all I can say without an example. In GSR times, the numberplate was all over grey too, usually (but not always) with the number and rim of plate picked out in pale yellow) - not a black background plate. In CIE times, same, or once the plate was removed an unlined pale yellow number and gold-lined "eau-de-nil" (Pale green, not yellow!) flying snail. Hope that answers it.

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I was asked recently for info on GSWR / GSR / CIE standard locomotive grey, in terms of how dark it was.

 

I think I posted a picture many moons ago, and doubtless upside down, of a model my grandfather made while he was in Inchicore, and using actual paint. However, I can't find the picture anywhere - maybe someone else knows where it is. If it can't be found, I'll take another.

 

Basically, it should not be "nearly black" - it should be just a shade darker than wagons. That's about all I can say without an example. In GSR times, the numberplate was all over grey too, usually (but not always) with the number and rim of plate picked out in pale yellow) - not a black background plate. In CIE times, same, or once the plate was removed an unlined pale yellow number and gold-lined "eau-de-nil" (Pale green, not yellow!) flying snail. Hope that answers it.

I think I have it somewhere JB,I will search my archives..

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For a C, A, B101, G601 (NOT G611!), or carriages painted after 1955/6, yes.

 

The darker shade with more elaborate lining was before that and didn't apply to locos mentioned above.

 

One A, I think A46, got a coat of the darker shade as a one off for a short time in the early 60s, and the B113 pair and the D's had a older "steam-like" dark green livery when new.

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What was the shade of green used on the A and C class diesel locos, and for the pale green lining? Equivalent RAL number if matches would also be useful. I've been trying to visually find a match on this chart https://www.everythingairbrush.com/media/wysiwyg/PDF/Model_Air_Colour_Chart.pdf Thanks in advance. Noel

 

 

 

I'm afraid I don't know RAL number but the pic of the C above shows it well.

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Ps: this is the type of green livery I was asking about the shade or Ral no?

 

Don't know if there was a darker one or just this?

 

maxresdefault.jpg

 

I have used Humbrol no 2 Emerald Gloss Green and got good results for the CIE lighter Green on C231. For the pale green lining I used Humbrol no 90 Beige Green Matt and had Weshty make up some number transfers in this colour to match.

20130426_001547.jpg

20130516_090111.jpg

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Thanks for the response guys, that's really helpful. It looks like 'Vallejo Model Color' 70.891 intermediate green for diesel locos and post 1955 coaches, and 'Model Air' 71.009 'Eau de Nil' for the lining, and perhaps 70.850 medium olive for pre-1955 coaches? Railmatch 307 also looks like a possible match for diesel loco body.

 

Vallejo have different colour charts in their range for 'model color' and 'model air' ranges of paints.

 

Any further advise would be welcome.

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On ‎08‎/‎12‎/‎2012 at 2:29 PM, jhb171achill said:

"Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

I spotted this error in a post of mine several YEARS ago; and I was wondering how can anyone edit a post they've done ages ago. recent posts can be edited, but not old ones.

 

My "howler" above says that no tender engines ever had snails; abject nonsense! I mean that no TANK engines ever had snails. I am sure that the eagle-eyed will have spotted this, but I'd like to correct it on the original post if at all possible.

 

It is correct, though, that yellow or white snails on tenders are totally wrong in all circumstances. Numerals were painted light yellow but tender snails were "eau-de-nil" light green, lined gold.

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LOCOS

51

52

53

54

55

56

57

58

59

60

61

62

63

64

65

66

67

68

69

70

71

72

73

74

75

76

77

78

79

80

Steam

 

Mostly very dark grey / some black AFTER 1955, some lined green

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

B113

Dark & lined loco / bus green

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Later “Mid” Green

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

C

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Black and Tan” or all-black derivatives

 

 

 

 

“Supertrain” – Orange all over with black midway band

 

 

B101

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

G601

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

E401

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

K801

 

 

 

 

GNR Dark Blue

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

G611

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

E421

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

B121

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Pale Grey & Yellow (Flying Snail logo)     Some

Black & tan from 1965

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

B141

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

B181

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

071

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COACHES

6 wheel pass’ger carrying

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6 wheel full brake

Dark & lined loco / bus green

 

 

Later “mid” green

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wooden bogies

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bredin & early CIE

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P Royal

 

 

 

 

Unpainted inc. chassis, roof, bogies, ends & roof

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Laminate

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Black and tan”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Tin Vans”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cravens

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

AEC Railcars

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WAGONS

All types

Dark Wagon Grey. “Flying Snails” & numerals light green until c.1953, then white.

Light wagon grey

Dark Brown, getting slightly more reddish in the 2000s.

 

 

Bullied Open

 

 

Unpainted bodies until they were “doubled up” for beet in the 1990s.             In the 1980s a very small number had brown chassis instead of grey, but unpainted “silver!” bodies.

Brake Vans

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cement “bubbles”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dark wagon grey

 

Orange “bubble” with GREY chassis

 

 

 

Some time ago I tried to post a table of what liveries ran with what, due to the growing interest in the 1950-70 period, and the release of the Murphy 121s, as well as the equally eagerly awaited IRM "A"s.

For some reason related to my crass ignorance of computers, I could not post it, so I did a simplified version.

If anyone wants the full thing, please ping me on this by private message and let me know your email address and I will forward the whole story, and nothing but the story, as my learned friend might say..........

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