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jhb171achill

CIE locomotive livery variations 1960-1990

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PART 1 (of 2)

 

We're all well aware of the changeover from green to black'n'tan in the early '60s. But it wasn't a case of everything being green one day, and repainted uniformly the following Monday morning! In these days of carefully managed corporate images, there is greater uniformity - and to companies who value a strong corporate branding, this is a good thing. But for an enthusiast and modeller, the 1955-75 period was one of variety, albeit beneath the blanket of the black'n'tan!

 

I will dig out details as I get the chance of variations in different locos, for example there was at least one 121 which received a red buffer beam during the short-lived greay and yellow era for these engines. The grey and yellow was largely gone within six years or so of delivery, with the class all receiving the standard black'n'tan.

 

G and E class locos carried both black with white bands at the top, and same with tan at the bottom. Generally, a black loco had CIE roundels on the sides, while a b'n't loco did not. On E class locos, the orange was "full height", i.e. matching the levels up to below-window-level on carriages, or thereabouts. On G class locos the tan was a strip about a foot high from platform level. Both "full height" and "lower strip" tan bands were to be seen on A and C class locos at various times; you will know what I mean if I refer to these variations as "high" and "low" tan sides.

 

Newly delivered 141s did not have a CIE roundel below the number on the sides, though these were added with later repaints, whereas 181s had them from the outset.

 

Some C class locos, while black, had yellow ends; on these the loco number was in black. I do not have the details of which locos had which variations and when, but I may be able to dig this out in which case I will post it.

 

A class locomotives had a tale to be told. This was the subject of an article in the August 1969 Irish Railfan's News, the following being a summary which would be invaluable for those modelling these locomotives in a 1960s setting.

 

There were sixty of these engines - the largest class of any Irish locomotive bar the GSWR 101s - built in 1955. They were delivered in all over silver, bogies and all, with "flying snails" and numerals in light green, and red buffer beams. This livery had extremely poor durability - probably worse than any other finish any rail vehicle has ever been in! A realistic approach to modelling this would be to look at photos of locos in this livery in traffic - they were a filthy grey in use, and the story got worse by degrees! Not surprisingly, CIE did not perpetuate this more than 5 years or so, with the lighter green as seen on the Dublin RPSI coaches taking over shortly, though not before A46 appeared in the older dark green, with light green line along the middle (as on DCDR's coach 3223 at present) in May 1958.

 

From here, the story became complicated.

 

Following A46's debut in dark green, A36 appeared in the then new lighter green, but without the lighter waistband. However, despite the lighter green being the new "post-silver" livery, the following emerged over the next few months in the dark green with waistband: A10, 11, 15, 24, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 & 60. So by late 1959, one lloco is in light green, 13 in dark green, and the rest in varying stages of the fifty million shades of silvery grey!

 

From 1960 the lighter version began to appear on all locomotives on a wide scale. A46 itself received this late in the year. No other loco started in dark green and was repainted light green - others went from silver to one form of green, then to black'n'tan or black. By the end of 1961 and locomotives still in silver were really in a deplorable state, in many cases the numerals being barely legible as they seemed to have tendency to wear off.

 

In September 1961 A6 appeared in an experimental livery described at the time as "black, golden brown and white". The IRN and the IRRS journals of the day doggedly stuck to this description of the light tan, which was in reality a browny-tinted orange. The loco had "high" tan sides. During 1962/3 this livery spread, though after the first few locos were thus treated the white strip above window level became narrower - the more familiar width perpetuated right through to the 1990s on Cravens.

 

However, in 1962 A16 appeared in traffic in newly painted silver!

 

By 1963/4, the story was:

 

Black'n'tan: 1-3, 5-8, 12, 14, 15, 17, 20, 22-4, 27, 31, 36, 37, 39, 40, 47, 48, 50, 52, 56 & 58. The tan was "high" level - same as on carriages. Trains thus formed had a very uniform look.

 

Dark Green with waist level lighter green line: 10, 11, 25, 34, 45, 51, 54, 57, 59 & 60.

 

Plain Light Green, no line; OR silver (a few; not sure which): 4, 9, 13, 16*, 18, 19, 21, 26, 28-30, 32, 33, 35, 38, 41-44, 46, 49, 53, 55. (* 1962 painted silver)

 

As if that wasn't complicated enough, A30 appeared in plain black in early 1964, as seen nowadays on Downpatrick's A39, but with orange buffer beams. Livery detail for modellers here: apart from a few rare one-offs, the general rule is that if there is tan at all, the upper white line continues right round the body sides, whereas if the loco is otherwise all black, the white bits are ONLY on the ends. An exception was the G class: white all round the top of the cab (though black roof, of course) irrespective of whether the loco had tan or not. Also, tan locos had no "broken wheel" on the sides, whereas black ones did in later days, but (as on DCDR's A39 now, and A30 as described above) did. A49 and A55 followed suit, but no other locos were thus treated. The orange buffer beams did not last long, soon being repainted red; otherwise the black livery remained the same.

 

By 1968 most of the class were repainted in this black livery, though the central side numeral gave way to numerals in the more familiar position on each end of the lower body side, with a "broken wheel" where the number had previously been. But A54 was still a dishevelled dark green (and temporarily out of use) and 1, 15, 22, 37, and 52 were black and "high" tan. A16 had a unique variation; having been b'n't, her sides had been painted black for her appearance in a film "Darling Lili", but her ends were b'n't... for a while!

 

In June 1968, A52 received the rectangular yellow patch on the front that was to become a short-lived feature on a few locos on the A and C classes, and the B113/4 pair. The loco number was painted on this in black, but the livery was otherwise unchanged. However, A15 was repainted after it, in the standard all-black.

 

By late 1969, A22, 37, 58R* and 59R* were black'n'tan. All others were black and white, with the following having received yellow ends: A4, 12, 13, 20, 24, 31, 34, 50, 52 & 55.

 

* The "R" following the number indicated that the loco had had its original Crossley engine replaced by a GM one during the re-engining or "transplant" process. Externally no changes were evident, but on re-engined locos the tan changed to the "low" version. This involved the ends remaining the same, but the formerly mid-height tan band on the sides dropping behind the cabside doors to a band (from memory) about 1 foot or 18 inches high... photos indicate this.

 

By the time the re-engining process was complete, in parallel with a similar process on the C class (whose livery history had been more or less an exact parallel of the above), the new "Supertrain" livery was coming into being.

 

Below window level, it was the same, but the changes were above this. Carriages had formerly had a white line above the windows, then more black right over the roof, but now the new "a/c" (Mk 2) stock had the same tan as below windows right over the roof and no white line, giving an impression of an all-tan coach with a black band covering window level only. Numerals were on the ends instead of the sides, giving a smooth and streamlined appearance.

 

The first locomotives to be treated with this new livery were A's, as they were now being used in a new lease of life on main expresses all over the country. Unlike coaches, locos had a number at each end of the bodyside, low down, and one on the ends, above a CIE roundel; loco ends were the only places where the CIE logo was to be seen on the "Supertrain" livery. "A"'s received tan sides, tan roofs and tan ends, with just the mid-bodyside black band, which dipped at the ends, for relief. The white lines were gone - for the time being! Initially the white numerals on the ends had orange shading if on a black background (A class) and later on with a black background when on tan, as seen on 141s once they started being repainted. I don't remember ever seeing shaded numerals on a 121; I think they were plain white from the start, as the shaded ones became with their first repaint.

 

Numerals on the sides of locos retained their shading.

 

(ctd)

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Part 2

 

After a short time, pairs of 121/141/181s were becoming commonplace, especially on main lines. Many a "pair" had a b'n't loco and a newly painted "supertrain" one - while nowadays I prefer the older b'n't myself, at the time the old livery was getting tatty, and a pair with a newly painted loco showed the new livery off to very flattering effect, as it tended to be kept immaculately clean. The "tan" became a marginally more orangey shade, which added to its attractiveness - or maybe it was its newness, and the greater area of it?

 

By the late 70s, b'n't engines were still to be seen among the 121/141/181 classes but were very rare among As and the now re-engined C's. I don't believe I saw any black and tan A or C class locos on extensive "runabout ticket" travels in 1977/8. I am not sure when the last GM got the "supertrain" livery, but maybe someone else here might know. It can't have been beyond 1980.

 

Meantime, shunters pottered about. The E401 class were few, but bore the silver, then the all black; some members had the "high" tan as well, which was typically applied to locos detailed to shunt Heuston carriages sidings. The E421 class were all delivered in black, but a few acquired the "low" tan for a while, though by the mid 1970s all were black and remained thus until withdrawal in the mid 80s.

 

The D class had predated these and originally had the lined dark green livery used on those steam locos which CIE repainted from grey to green, and which can still be seen on "Maedb". Later they got the post-1955 lighter green - unlined. I suspect thus was applied about 1958as it was then that they were officially classed as "D". Prior to that, their numbers were 1000-4, not 301 upwards. They skipped silver, as they were not new when it was introduced - only new vehicles were ever silver. After repainting in black, some of these had tan, but they all wore all-black before withdrawal, with the unusual feature of the white flash on the upper ends being striped on the black surface on at least two; in other words, instead of a plain white panel between and above end window level, they had vertical white stripes.

 

Other than the D class, the only other diesel locos to wear the lined dark green ("steam")I very were B113/4, though it is important to note that they were then numbered 1100/1, only being designated "B" class in 1958, which is probably when they received their next livery, the then-current lighter green. From about 1963' they appeared first in full black'n'tan but later all black with yellow panels on the ends. It was in this livery they ended their career.

 

The three original (1955) G class locos (G601-3) were delivered in silver, repainted in light green some time about 1960/1, and then into plain black, which they retained to the end. At least one had the loco frames in green too, though (I stand to be corrected) the other two had black on the frames, green on the body. All three had small "snails" above the number on the cabside. These three did not have vacuum brakes and were thus never used on Loughrea passenger or mixed trains - in fact, I have no evidence of them going into Loughrea at all.

 

The other seven, G611-7, went into traffic in black'n'tan, though there is a theory that the initial one, G611, arrived from Deutz in plain green with no markings. If so, it was certainly repainted b'n't before it turned a wheel. During the '60's, several of these locos were repainted plain black, and when they were all withdrawn not long after the Loughrea branch closed some were b'n't, some plain black. Both liveries may be seen today on G613 (b'n't) and G617 (black) at Downpatrick. G611 is there also, and carries the green livery that the G601 class had for a while, though it never ran itself like that. In addition, unlike G613 and G611 which have both been (strictly incorrectly) painted green at Downpatrick at various times, green "G" class locos never had a "flying snail", as they carried a large painted number on cab sides.

 

All ten "G" class locos had the number painted on the cab sides and end. In common with larger diesels the numbers were small if a CIE rounded was also present, generally with the all black variation*, but when black'n'tan the larger font, as on can ends, was used. Due to the fact that the vacuum pigeon the "G611" class obscured the radiator, these seven never had a number on the front at all - the only CIE locos as far as I am aware to have no front number. The earlier three, with no vacuum pipe, had the number painted in small than usual numerals on the front above the radiatior.

 

(* always with "G" and "E" class; usually but not always with "A" and "C")

 

An interesting livery detail regarding the solitary ex-GNR "K" class was that with no logical place to paint the normal sized numeral in its ends, it wade only broad gauge CIE diesel to carry a number on its buffer beams, as in steam days, but with a more modern font.

 

The three narrow gauge West Clare F class locos started and ended their short lives in the plain lighter green, but only carried a numeral. In common with the Walker railcars there they never carried lining or "snails". Like K801, they carried buffer beam numerals.

 

And so to the Sulzers. These started in the old steam-era dark green with large numerals and snails in light "eau-de-nil" green, lined in gold, and black and white lining. They received the lighter green treatment in the mid 50s, and "high" b'n't about 1964. Later, they were painted plain black, and received the yellow ends. They did not last long enough in traffic to receive the "supertrain" livery, but might have looked quite well in it! There's one for a modeller, to sit alongside a 141 or 121 in the current black and silver 071 livery......

 

The "Birmingham Sulzers" as the B101s seemed to have been invariably known, had a story like some A's. They started in silver and some got the light green but none the dark green. Black with "high" tan followed, and most ended up in plain black, before later getting the "low" tan band. At least one had an odd variation: while it had full "high" tan sides, the white band was not continued along the sides. It ended its days like that: I saw it thus at Inchicore about 1979.

 

As mentioned, the story of the C class was not unlike that of the A's. Silver, two shades or green, and black. I don't remember any in the "high" tan at the outset, though at least the rebuilt pair B233/4 had it after re-engining, but most C's were black in the sixties, a minority with yellow panels post-1968. The "transplant" era saw them emerge with "low" tan on the sides. By this stage they were all graduating towards Dublin, there being little or now work for them elsewhere, and the de-engining of the old AEC railcars gave them a new life on push-pulls in the Dublin area. I don't remember seeing a b'n't "C" on such work - all seemed to have received the "supertrain" livery by the time they started that.

 

This "Supertrain" livery ruled the roost, therefore, on all locos bar the E class from the mid 70s until 1987, when CIE became IE, as far as the locos were concerned. The railway was not awash with money at that stage, so instead of a bright bold new livery, the locos and coaches simply received the white lines aove and below the central black band. This was referred to by some at Inchicore at the time as the "tippex treatment", but actually looked well. The CIE roundel on loco sides was replaced by the new IE "set of points" logo, though locos were to be seen with new badge, no tippex, or tippex with no badge, and in the case of one 141, CIE roundels on the ends and "sets of points" on the sides for a while.

 

IE applied their logo to loco sides. First it was the "set of points", then later the "three pin plug" in the 1990s. In the "supertrain" era no CIE roundel was ever on the side of a loco, only the ends.

 

If I think of more, I'll post it - if you think of questions, please ask.

Edited by jhb171achill

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A wealth of information to digest, perhaps could be made a sticky on the forum. ;)

 

I have few additions might be of interest based on observations; Regarding the grey/yellow 121 locomotives, B127 and B123 had the red painted buffer beams, I know one 121 was repainted in the yellow/grey as reported in the IRN, think it might have been B123? - I'm not sure.

 

For some reason, some of the re-engined A Classes in their black & tan livery, still had the high-tan sides unlike most which were altered to the low-tan, the preserved A39r, and A51r being such examples, there may have been others.

 

The Crossley engined C Class locomotives, C203 (yellow buffer beam), C209 and C211 were in all over black with the yellow rectangle fronts. Some of the Crossley Cs had the black & tan with high-bands during the mid 1960s, examples C206, C209 and C211, they later got the all-over black treatment.

 

The first re-engined C Classes, renumbered B233 and B234, still had the all-over black livery when re-entering service, B234 received the tan treatment later, while by 1969 B233 was still in all-over black but with a yellow rectangle. Interestingly, when 233 received the 'Supertrain' livery, it was still without its GM headlight on the front, which looked sort of odd! Not sure if 234 looked the same at that time. Re-engined C Classes did operate in the black/tan livery with the converted AEC pushpull stock, but all receiving the 'Supertrain' treatment by end of the 1970s.

 

The Birmingham Sulzers may have got the two green liveries, the lighter without the white band, the darker with it. B111 and B112 were the Sulzers to have the high-tan sides, unlike the rest the class with the low-tan.

 

Some of the D Class received the black/tan treatment in the early 1960s, such as D302 and D305. D303 at some point may have received a later shade of green, as observed in 1956, in Irish Railways in Colour (1). Interestingly, one of the Ds may have remained in the dark green and original number into 1960s, as observed (not by myself I might add!) at Inchicore in 1964.

 

All of this of course would be easier to explain with photos! :)

Edited by Eiretrains

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Stuck :)

 

Excellent, well worthy of stickyness....indeed well worthy of a potential Ian Allen / Colourpoint publication to be honest...

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C233 & 234 were originally re-engined in the mid-1960s with Maybach 1200hp engines similar to the WR Warships as at the time EMD were only prepared to supply complete locos.

 

They were outshopped in the plain black with white eyebrow and small yellow warning panel, one of the odder features of these engines was that the porthole window on the opposite side to the main air intake at the No2 end was blanked out.

 

The Maybach rebuilds were fitted to work in multiple with the B141 class and seem to have been used mainly on Dublin-Limerick passenger trains and bulk cement workings out of Castlemugnet.

 

The GM re-motored B201 Class appear to have been used on main line trains out of Heuston to Cork and Tralee and Connolly-Galway & Sligo passenger services before being concentrated on Dublin suburban workings.

 

With their push pull capability I always wonder what would have happened had CIE followed NIRs example and used B201 class to top and tail Supertrain sets on Heuston-Waterford and Heuston-Limerick trains.

 

The Colourpoint book Irish Metrovicks covers most of the livery variations of the two/three classes.

 

Oh! Nearly forgot 001 appeared with the centre section of the roof painted black (much more sensible than orange) in the Supertrain publicity photos shot on the Wexford line.

Edited by Mayner

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"B" Class Liveries

 

Further to the initial subject of this post, a more detailed look at the various varieties of "B" class locomotives.

 

B101 class

 

All silver initially, with green numerals; then B112 got the dark green with midway line. These locos had no normal buffer beam as such, so did not initially have a red area at the front when in silver. However, the area where one would expect a buffer beam to be was gradually painted red on all locos following a well-received experiment on B104. B110 was the first to receive black'n'tan with "high" tan, followed by the rest of the class, but in the mid-60s all were painted plain black except B111, which remained b'n't. From 1970 onwards, all were painted b'n't with "low" tan. Following the introduction of the "Supertrain" livery, all still in traffic received this livery. I have an idea that at least one was painted this way but saw little or no use thereafter. The last two of the class were withdrawn in 1978.

 

B113 / 4

 

Details have been posted above by Eiretrains.

 

B121 Class

 

The grey and yellow livery has already been referred to. The reason 123 and 127 received red buffer beams in 1961/2 was because they worked specials to the Wexford Opera Festival! All were repainted b'n't, with CIE roundel on the sides, the first being B121, 132 and 134 in 1966, and the last two being 122 and 128 in 1968. The initial trio mentioned differed from the rest in having a (slightly) more square shaped "dip" in the white on the front end. From 1972, all were repainted into "Supertrain" colours fairly rapidly, and appeared in pairs on the main line expresses alongside "A"'s.

 

B141 / B181 classes

 

The 141s were delivered in b'n't but without the CIE roundel on the sides, which was later added, though in 1971 B177 still didn't have one. The later B181s all had a roundel from the outset. By degrees all were repainted into "Supertrain" style after 1972, but from memory b'n't locos of these types were around longer than in other classes.

 

B233 / 234

 

As Eiretrains mentioned, these were somewhat exceptional, and I agree - it would have been interesting to see what use might have been made of them on push-pull "Enterprise" type operations on CIE lines.

 

071 Class

 

Delivered from GM in a factory painted version of CIE livery. The "tan" was not CIE's standard shade, being significantly darker and more brownish. The CIE roundel on the ends was all white, instead of the normal style of tan surround and white letters, and it was not quite the standard shape of logo. It looked slightly larger than normal. At first repaint all received standard "Supertrain" livery.

 

These locos did not carry standard orange with white logo. White logo, brown paint; normal logo with normal orange / tan.

 

In the case of all of the above, "tippex" white lines were of course added post-'87, along with a change of logo.

Edited by jhb171achill

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The detail provided is immense and worthy to be included in the Resource Section of this Forum.

 

To see it with accompanying pictures illustrating the different liveries would be a book I would be interested in and it would be great if it could include Coaching Stock as well. Well done jcb171achill.

 

My only concern with all your extensive articles is will there be an exam at the end of them.. I haven’t been taking notes!

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Hahaha Kirley - well I think anyone who has waded through them has already passed the exam! Research for the book, I am reliably informed, has started! Photos are indeed the issue, especially since many useful ones have already been published. Tomorrow a big trawl of various archives continues. And there's another book to be finished ahead of it, I am equally reliably informed!

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Now, a question to those like jhb who clearly know their onions when it comes to CIE lveries, what about coaches? Were there two variations of green in the later 1950's/early 60s, after the very dark green with light green stripes of the early 50s, as per the Murphy Models CIE liveried coaches.

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Very much so - there were a number of variations.

 

When CIE was formed in 1945, they adopted the green colour and logo of the Dublin United Tramways company; the "flying snail" dated initially from the 1930s, as did that shade or darkish brunswick green. CIE added the lighter green broad stripes, as seen on preserved buses and on the Bachmann "flying snail" coaches, which would actually be better in UTA green as they are of LMS design - they'd make very comvincing NCC coaches, but that's wandering off the point!

 

This original livery had the "snail", the numerals and the broad light green lines edged in gold. The light green was initially not QUITE as light as the "eau de nil" but close enough. Thus, modelling the period 1945-50, a layout would have newly painted coaches in this livery, but quite a few, especially older 6-wheelers or parcel vans / passenger brakes still in GSR maroon of the later type, i.e. LMS red. This faded, incidentally, to a more browny red, due to brake dust; a weatherer's dream, well able to be very convincingly done by many here.

 

In 1950 when the first AEC cars were introduced, the livery currently worn by Downpatrick's brake genny standard 3223 was adopted but only for railcars. Base colour was the same, but a single thinner light green line along the waist was used, and both it and the snail, as well as the lettering, no longer had the gold lining. Unlike locos and wagons, which were almost "sheep dipped" in their respective body colours, carriage roofs were always dark grey, and chassis always black at this stage, on all coaching stock.

 

Carriage ends were black, never green, unlike the GSR, which tended to paint the ends of non-corridor stock in the body colour, though I am aware some were black too. The "steels", in GSR days, and all similar coaches, always had black ends. CIE generally painted all coach ends black, bar a few on narrow gauge lines.

 

The "railcar" green had several interesting variations; some were seen (one or two in West Cork in particular) with a striped pattern on the curved very front of the roof. I am not sure what colour the stripes were, but this detail was only applied to a few AEC cars; most had grey roofs all over.

 

There were variations. On the West Cork system, some old bogie coaches had the dark green with an unlined "snail" about a third along the bodyside, and another about 2/3 along; otherwise the standard was always ONE snail. On coaches treated thus, perhaps only one or two, there was no lining at all, and the unlined snail and unlined numeral was a very much lighter colour, possibly even white. On the Cavan & Leitrim, carriages carried a light green band above the window level only, not below, and neither it or the numerals & snail were gold-lined. The West Clare stock had no lining but were otherwise as above; many items of coaching stock on this system had no snails either; just plain green with a number (suffixed with "c", of course).

 

In 1955, the Park Royals appeared in the lighter green now worn by DCDR's TPO, and the RPSI's Dublin heritage set, with lining and snails as on them; namely unlined in gold, and the thin waist line rather than thick bands of light green above and below window, which no vehicle painted light green ever had.

 

Then we have the new tin vans and laminates appearing unpainted - chassis, roof, ends included. After 4 milliseconds in traffic this became an awful, drab, dirty looking dull uneven patchy grey (I'm really selling it, aren't I!). Carriages turned out thus never had flying snails at all, and numerals were reported by some to have been red on at least some of them, though locos turned out in silver always had snails and numerals in the standard light green, no gold lining.

 

By 1960, ex-GNR coaches are appearing on CIE lines. Unlike the UTA, who painted out the GN crest on some and applied a UTA one to the otherwise-unrepainted coach, CIE left them alone until a proper repaint was due, after which they came out in the standard light green livery - except for one, the RPSI's 114, which is believed to be the only GNR coach whcih went straight from GNR livery into black'ntan as late as about 1965.

 

Many of the remaining sixwheelers and old wooden stock was by now repainted into the light green, but by 1960 a few old examples in the dark green with full "above & below" gold lined light green bands were to be seen, among light green vehicles and a few "silver" ones.

 

Then the famous black'n'tan era started. I was in Kildare signal box one day with my father and a 141 speeded through with an up train from Cork. The 141 can't have been long out of its Hornby box (or should that be Bachmann?), and the train consisted of carriages all in green, bar the last vehicle which was just repainted. "Oh!" says Senior; "is that the new livery!". "Yeah", said the signalman, in a somewhat deadpan way, "Ye'd think we'd have seen the last of the black and tans!".

 

I digress; it was early 1963 when all but a few experimental coaches, started to be painted in b'n't en masse, even as grey and yellow 121s were appearing to haul them. This livery was to remain on Cravens unaltered until the early 1990s. As a corporate image livery it was very strong and ahead of its time. The next major change was of course when the "supertrain" livery appeared from 1972; all over orange, roof included, and the body colour for the first time slightly coming round the coach end, and a black band of window-depth. Post 1987, the "tippex lines" were added, giving the attractive livery of orange & black edged in white. And the rest ye know! The final incarnation of orange and black was to be that on the 2600s when new, with a black band just below the window level edged in white, the "Arrow" branding, and for the first time the chassis, bogies and roof were light grey instead of dark grey or black.

 

If that was the "Fanta Can" livery, we then had the "Lilt can" lime green and dark blue, followed by NIR's "red bull" livery!

 

Dunno what you'd call the current forty shades of grey (and green...)... a "novel" livery?

 

Hope that helps!

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great information lads! wouldnt it be grear if all this info was available in a pocket sized book? heres hoping...saying-a-prayer-smiley-emoticon.gif

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great information lads! wouldnt it be grear if all this info was available in a pocket sized book? heres hoping...[ATTACH=CONFIG]6234[/ATTACH]

 

Cut, paste, collate, edit, index, size 9 times roman. PDF

No bother. That's what desk top publishing is all about.

 

Now photos.....that's a different matter.

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Cut, paste, collate, edit, index, size 9 times roman. PDF

No bother. That's what desk top publishing is all about.

 

ah westy darling, you forget that some of us (me really!) are cabbages when it comes to that sort of thing

embarrassed-smiley-face.gif

embarrassed-smiley-face.gif

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Eiretrains wrote:

 

For some reason, some of the re-engined A Classes in their black & tan livery, still had the high-tan sides unlike most which were altered to the low-tan, the preserved A39r, and A51r being such examples, there may have been others.

 

Indeed. However, an additional detail is that in later days all, or almost all, had "low-tan" sides.

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Just a thought.... By the time the history is written on 2600 / 2700 / 2800 / 22000 / 29000 classes of railcars, think of the many variations that have taken place already!

 

I'll be doing crosswords in a nursing home....

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...and I'll be spilling custard on them, Horsetan, dreaming of dinner on the Cork line in a 1956-built 24XX series dining car way back in the seventies.....

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Attached are some pictures of a model "O" gauge locomotive made by my grandfather when in Inchicore, as a toy for my father. The interest for modellers here, and indeed preservationists who will ever have anything to do with 90, 184, 186 and 461, is that it is painted with actual GSWR (or GSR / CIE) standard loco grey. You can see where the original description comes from of having "a bluish tinge" when clean. You can also see that in certain lighting conditions it looks much more like black, which has frequently given rise to assumptions that the locos actually were black.

 

In order to illustrate that point, I have photographed it from a number of angles, both in daylight and artificial light.

 

If anyone's interested in seeing the thing, ping me privately.

 

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Some engines had the cab interior painted this colour, but the majority had plain grey there too.

image.jpg

 

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Not sure, Weshty, without seeing the actual Humbrol paints. The colour currently carried by 186 was seen as absolutely spot-on by those few surviving who witnessed the real thing newly done in Inchicore (jhb171 senior being one). I've compared this model to it and it's fine.

 

AB0032 Dark Grey Matt would appear to be by far the best of those you identified above. None of the others look right.

Edited by jhb171achill

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I have a sample of GSWR wagon grey - which is as good as black - as well as the lighter loco "battleship" grey. Based on the above samples, the best matches would probably be:

 

GSWR wagon grey/black: a darkened version of RC414 Executive Dark Grey Matt AB2414.

 

GSR / Early CIE wagon grey: the closest looks like 125 US Dark Grey Satin AA1376.

 

1960s Light Grey as applied to H vans, pal-vans and "bubbles" when built; chassis of "bubbles" once the bodies were painted orange: probably 165 Medium Sea Grey Satin AA1794.

 

GSWR / GSR / CIE loco grey has been covered elsewhere.

 

In all of the above, I'm going on an online colour chart in artificial light! But the above look close enough.

 

If you trawl British modelling websites, I'm sure a decent reference can be found for LMS wagon grey. This is appropriate for the NCC, and only very marginally darker than CIE or GNR.

 

The County Donegal used a slightly lighter grey, which can be seen in original form on the preserved CDR open wagon in Cultra. However, as often seems to be the disease in replicating original wagon liveries, the black ironwork on that is not authentic. It should also be grey.

Edited by jhb171achill

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I meant to do this a long time ago.

 

Occasionally, black is seen as an alternative colour for CIE steam locomotives, and most will be aware that indeed, a few did carry green and black in the later times. So, for clarity:

 

1. Everything was all grey from GSR Day 1 until 1947, except for Albert Quay's ex-Bandon distillery 299, which was never repainted from its original green, and the three 800 class. The all-grey even existed long before GSR days; on the GSWR it had been introduced as early as 1915. jhb171Senior recalled that this was most probably due to economy, but as well as that, during the Great War it was not possible to get ready supplies of any colour of paint you wanted. And with Inchicore working full out, luxuries such as allocating men to do lining and so on would have been harder than before.

 

2. After 1947, MOST remained all grey right until the end of steam. But there exceptions to every rule, thus:

 

3. From 1947 to about 1953, the following engines were painted lined green, as currently carried by 800 (461's is not the correct shade):

 

(a) All 4.6.0 - the 400, 500 & 800 classes. Though 802 carried a lighter shade as an experiment for about 18 months from 1952 - this was like a dark apple green.

(b) The "Woolwich" 2.6.0's.

© Dublin suburban tank engines. This explains why one "Bandon Tank" received green, but the others didn't; one was then allocated to DSER suburban services.

Four other locos, each a single example in their class, received it: D14 (or "60" class) No. 61 - must have been a sight for sore eyes!!!, D4 No. 336, D12 No. 305 and B4 No. 467.

 

In all cases, lining was black and white. "Snails" were gold-lined light green (or "eau-de-nil"); this was a very pale green with a slight yellowish tint, but NOT yellow! Numerals were the same colour, always painted except for the 800 class. These retained the blue background to number and name plates initially, and 800 did until the end - however, 801 and 802 had their name and numberplates changed to a red background about 1951-ish.

 

4. The Black livery.

This one's a bit like the "modeller's disease" of common misconception that if Hornby make model wagons of all types in all liveries, but always, always, have black chassis, so must it be in real life. Carriages always had black chassis, but wagons almost always had body-colour chassis. Similarly, with locomotives; if it has a smokebox, this must be black. Usually, yes, but not with GSR and CIE grey livery, where it's ALL grey! This is not without precedent. In pre-first world war France and Prussia, there were numerous types of locomotives with smokeboxes the same as body colour...

 

So to CIE black. Again, the dark grey shown in photos is often assumed to be black, especially if weathered or when the lighting was poor when the photo was taken. When dirty it could look like faded black. In fact, very few CIE locos were ever painted black at all, but some were, as follows; all being thus treated post-1953, before which there was no black at all.

 

(a) "K1" class "Woolwich" No. 384 was painted glossy black about 1955 for working the "Rosslare Express". Uniquely, it had red lining too - an Inchicore throwback of GSWR influence. Despite being applied to a Midland locomotive! The red lining was accompanied by the standard "eau-de-nil" snail on the tender, and painted cabside numerals in this colour too, as opposed to the light yellow used on grey locos, but similar to the "eau" used on green locos - if all that makes any sense.

(b) Locos of several other classes were painted black, usually as individual examples. J30 No. 90 was repainted as late as about 1957 in what colour slides suggest was black, for example. Both of these were done in Cork, where other variations occurred as described later. A few Midland locos received black - at least one G2 2.4.0 is believed to have appeared thus.

© Three locos - Cork variations as alluded to above - appeared in a unique and quite attractive livery at the very end of steam, only being repainted thus about 1960. This consisted of the standard all-over grey, but with black smokeboxes and chimneys; therefore only appropriate to a Cork-area layout. These were J15 No. 193, ex-Midland J18 No. 593, and "Bandon Tank" B4 No. 464.

 

An important detail here, which should be of interest to anyone modelling steam in the 26 counties at any time post 1925. Under the GSR, no logos or lettering was carried on loco sides or tenders, with the exception of one Cavan and Leitrim tank, which carried small white "G S" on tank sides for a very short time! Numberplates were either completely painted over grey, or had the rims and lettering picked out in cream, retaining grey backgrounds. Occasionally, the rims and letters were polished, like 186, but this was unusual. Once into CIE times, this pattern remained initially, but before long tenders (never tank sides) received "flying snails" in eau-de-nil, never yellow as often seen now. It's an understandable error, as cabside numerals were yellow! But the "snails" were always eau-de-nil - they were standard transfers, as also used on carriages, and were thus also lined in gold. CIE began to remove numberplates from most locos, though, for example J26 No. 560 retained its plates until 1963. Once removed, unlined pale yellow cabside numerals were painted on.

 

So - for a GSR era layout - very easy! Unless ther's an 800 on it, everything's grey, no logos.

 

For CIE, green locos as 800 in Cultra (without the incorrect "G S" added by Cultra! - but with a lined "snail" instead). The rest, all over grey, with lined eau-de-nil snails on tenders, and pale yellow cabside numerals.

 

I hope all that makes some sort of sense!

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