Brake Vans

[Glenderg]

Gents,

 

Having a bit of a journey of discovery with Brake Vans of late, and came across these two photos at the crossing in limerick junction taken in 1957. I know that the 20 Ton Brake Van had vertical panelling, so it's not that, but the longer than 30 ton ducket on the side suggests it is. Is this non-striped ducket (presumably in yellow) and brown horizontal panelled brake van another variant that can be made of the SSM Brake Van kit or is it a different animal altogether? (It's not the 8452 - 8456 GSWR Ballast Brake Plough Van either - that's for another thread.)

 

 

 

Any info would be appreciated.

 

Richie.

[Lough Erne]

It looks like a GSWR 12T van series 8670-8679, however I could be wrong. If it is, it would be identical to the van at Dunsandle.

[WRENNEIRE]

Some vertically planked yokes Richie

Not them I know but thought I should share

 

 

 

[jhb171achill]

That brake van is of GSWR origin, probably 1910-ish era but I am not sure. In terms of livery, no brake vans were brown at that stage, nor were any striped. They were grey all over; roof and chassis included. The black paint on the preserved NCC one at Downpatrick and the "Ivan" one at Whitehead are not historically accurate. The livery on the plough van at Downpatrick is entirely fictitious; with GSWR lettering it should be dark grey or all over black. If lettered for GSR or CIE, grey - though post 1970-ish it would have been brown all over, chassis included, under CIE ownership.

 

To go back to CIE vans and livery details, the grey began to be relieved by stripes in the mid 60s. From about 1970 or so (can't be certain of exact date), brown with stripes began to be used by CIE.

 

No goods brake vans were ever all brown without stripes. Contrary to what you can see in the UFTM at Cultra, the stripes were always yellow and black, never white and black. In fact, most unfortunately, not one item in Cultra which has been painted by UFTM has an accurate livery - but that's for another day!

 

As far as I can tell, CIE never painted stripes on any vans which were not of the "modern" standard CIE design, nor were any painted brown. Thus, any old steam era brake van is all grey, and probably also needs to be well weathered to look right!

[Glenderg]

That brake van is of GSWR origin, probably 1910-ish era but I am not sure. In terms of livery, no brake vans were brown at that stage, nor were any striped. They were grey all over; roof and chassis included.

 

Cheers JHB. A further trawl into nerd land puts the lamp directly above the ducket, a wagon in D.Coackham's book agrees but its not the subject of the photo, and all trawls through the black and white photos seem relativley fruitless. You said in one of your recent nostalgic posts about the cost of pushing the shutter button on developing photos - it's clear that the gricers of that era preferred the mares up front than the donkeys at the back!

 

I have a fair understanding of the NCC/UTA /BCDR batch of brake vans, and thankfully there are either drawings available for scratchbuilding or kits available to make your own - i'm hoping to tackle these in a few weeks time. The southern irish proportion of brake vans appears to centred on a wagon from 1906 which was designated two differing batches of running numbers - one for ballast brake plough vans and one for dedicated brake vans only. ( d. Coackham) but essentially the same dimensions. I cant find any record of anyone other then GSWR. Were they really that dominant?

 

Back to the photos and i'm going to offer a hypothesis here. It's a 20 ton brake van on the basis that it is double veranda, lamp above the long ducket, and timber pattern akin to GSWR . I believe the wagon survived in use and was plated over and kept running in the same way 8452 was butchered and kept running for 106 years up until the cultural vandals in inchicore put the cutters torch to it.

 

I'll post up my photos etc. Tomorrow when i have the external hard drive plugged in to further the conversation and possibly see if my crackpot theory holds any water. I have one photograph showing the GSWR Ballast brake with original livery , the letters PWD clearly visible in 1936. A lot of this research has a swiss cheese factor though.

 

Full of holes.

 

Richie

[heirflick]

keep us posted riche - love the old pics

[Mayner]

The CIE 20T van was based on an older GSWR design, CIE tended to scrap anything not built in Inchacore and most DSER, MGWR & West Cork Vans had gone by the 1960s.

 

Some of the older vans were quite Wild West with raised cupolas and drovers compartments. I will post up some sketches when I get a chance

 

[jhb171achill]

In relation to how common these were, they were more common probably than any other type! But CIE embarked on a programme of building their standard ones in the 50s, and as Mayner says, anything deemed non-standard by Inchicore was the first to go. One van, Timoleagure & Courtmacsherry No. 5, did make it to the closure of the West Cork system (and for those interested, in battered weathered all-grey; no stripes of course). The above type was to be seen on goods train into the late 60s on occasions, but I would not think after that.

[Weshty]

You said in one of your recent nostalgic posts about the cost of pushing the shutter button on developing photos - it's clear that the gricers of that era preferred the mares up front than the donkeys at the back!

 

Accurate measures of inflation, one of my fav subjects. To understand why colour photos are rare even in the 70's, I have an old 1974 negative/photo holder from a pharmacy that arranged developing, with a price of £5.60 on the front (for 36 shots). Remember , this excludes the cost of the film.

 

The average earning equivalent of stg£5.60 today is €85, working out at €2.37 per snap (and with film cost c.€4 per shot). Hence the rarity. Go back another 20 years and you can see how colour slides were as rare as hens' teeth.

[Glenderg]

Funny then when you see the railtours during the 60's, and all the photographers gathered around together, pretty much all taking the same photograph. As HF said recently, there must be old film in attic's throughout the country.

 

Back on topic though, and I received some fabulous information from Mayner earlier, which I need to process fully, but along with that and a substantial find of 1940-1960's colour and B&W photo's I should be able to do the "family tree" of brake vans from turn of the century until recently. I'll do it later this evening. Thanks for all the input so far folks. It's been an interesting rabbit-hole adventure! R.

[heirflick]

. 'I'll do it later this evening.'

 

looking forard to that richie...i have the tayto and a few cans in the fridge!!