Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 So, it turns out the Flying Snail wasn't unique to Ireland. Here's a photo of a preserved 1940s Dutch trolley bus wearing one... (Photo: Voogd075 at nl.wikipedia) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Well spotted. I will be quizzing my Dutch correspondent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 More photos on Google Images... https://www.google.ie/search?q=ARNHEM+TROLLEYBUSES&client=firefox-a&hs=YQj&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8uqTUdCkIeTE7Abn64Bg&ved=0CDEQsAQ&biw=1608&bih=830#imgrc=J_dgDLFgqERf3M%3A%3BBPpbKHfofJtVoM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%252F2512%252F3918702365_0193040983_z.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252Farthur-a%252F3918702365%252F%3B640%3B480 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 They seem to be the other way up to ours.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 They seem to be the other way up to ours.. True, although 'reverse' Flying Snails were used on the right-hand side of loco tenders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I wonder where they got it from, and when? CIE adopted it directly from the Dublin United Tramways Company, who had introduced it about 1941. The DUT based the design on the London Underground "bar and circle" device, still used today - possibly one of the longest running corporate identity logos in the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 I wonder where they got it from, and when? CIE adopted it directly from the Dublin United Tramways Company, who had introduced it about 1941. The DUT based the design on the London Underground "bar and circle" device, still used today - possibly one of the longest running corporate identity logos in the world? Well JB, if you ask me they should have kept the Flying Snail... it's a timeless design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Scotsman 4472 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Could CIE have copied it from the Dutch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 My Dutch Correspondent only appears on my other Forum every week or so, but he does know his stuff. We'll see what he comes up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If they had it in the 1940s, I suppose either the Dutch could have copied it from the DUTC (rather than CIE), but equally the DUTC could have copied it from the Dutch. If the Dutch bus livery turns out to be pre-1941, then the DUTC have directly copied it from the Dutch - thus the original theory about the London Transport origin needs considerable amendment. Could the Dutch have based their design on London, followed by CIE copying it? Either is possible, but the London Transport theory has wide currency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 The photo is of a trolley bus that ran in the city of Arnhem. According to Wikipedia, the trolley bus network there began operating in 1949... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybuses_in_Arnhem ...Which would suggest they ether copied it from CIÉ, or as JB suggests, a coincidence derived from the London Transport roundel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 That would seem most likely. The story of how DUTC got it is widely quoted by reliable sources; thus it does indeed seem the Dutch copied it from either DUTC or early CIE. Done'n'dusted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Scotsman 4472 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 If they had it in the 1940s, I suppose either the Dutch could have copied it from the DUTC (rather than CIE), but equally the DUTC could have copied it from the Dutch. If the Dutch bus livery turns out to be pre-1941, then the DUTC have directly copied it from the Dutch - thus the original theory about the London Transport origin needs considerable amendment. Could the Dutch have based their design on London, followed by CIE copying it? Either is possible, but the London Transport theory has wide currency. Could Garfield have stumbled upon something here that may see the history books rewritten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 15, 2013 Author Share Posted May 15, 2013 Could Garfield have stumbled upon something here that may see the history books rewritten. I'm afraid I can't take credit. Details arrived in my email inbox from an acquaintance. JB, you should have mail about it as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Scotsman 4472 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I'm afraid I can't take credit. Details arrived in my email inbox from an acquaintance. . Shhhhhhh Pat say nothing we'll give you the credit anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WRENNEIRE Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Iomchar Atha Cliath Dublin Transport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister_for_hardship Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 (edited) That was the DUTC version of the snail, think 'iomchar' may be a portmanteau of 'iompair' (transport/transit) and 'car' (car/vehicle) there being no ready made word in Irish for 'tram' or 'tramways'. There were a lot of winged/flying wheels used in Europe (OBB in Austria had a very chunky stylised one) and elsewhere, but the Dutch one is uncannily similar to the Irish 'snail' albeit a bit elongated like the old Lima HO CIE logo. Edited May 16, 2013 by minister_for_hardship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 My agent has reported and is undertaking further investigations.. I have not seen this logo before in our area of Holland (Rotterdam)It seems to have only been used in Arnhem by the local transport organisation at that time. The organisation was the GVA (Gemeentelijk Vervoersbedrijf Arnhem) But it is very difficult to find more info on this matter The first trolleybus used in Arnhem was in 1949 There have also been variations on the logo: As seen on the trolleybus: and a more "Modern" variant: I will try to find out more later! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 16, 2013 Author Share Posted May 16, 2013 Cheers for that, Broithe! From those links it's apparent that the logo is based on the CIÉ version, and the Dutch enthusiasts even refer to it as a 'Flying Snail'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Cheers for that, Broithe! From those links it's apparent that the logo is based on the CIÉ version, and the Dutch enthusiasts even refer to it as a 'Flying Snail'. No problem. He knows what he's doing on rail-related matters - and he can search effectively in Dutch, which may turn up stuff not readily available to us.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weshty Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Iomchar Atha CliathDublin Transport? Lovely!!! I like the gold edging. Very tasty, I'll be updating my transfers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 That's in Head Hunters in Enniskillen. The paint on all those crests is original railway company stuff. I can vouch for the ancestry of the excellent collection in Head Hunters Railway Museum there, which is well worth a look. That particular "snail" was presented to the original owner by the DUT Co. Thus, the paint is one of the few genuine examples of the exact green used by the DUT - and CIE - until the lighter green came into use in 1955. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhb171achill Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Interesting! So that confirms it. Maybe the railways of Antarctica will adopt the MGWR coat of arms next! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 My agent is still active in the field.. Hello, me again! I have been trying very hard to find the original source of the logo. But its a bit like the chicken and the egg........ All Dutch sources indicate at least that the logo is identical to the one used in Ireland. The logo was already used before 1949. During the war almost all trams in Arnhem were distroyed, and they had to start all over. At this time they decided to change from trams over to trolley buses. The following video tells the history of the trolley buses in Arnhem (sorry about the language ) At approx. 1:52 you see the logo on the side of a very primitive looking bus. These (lorry)buses were used just after the war as a stop-gap measure, until the trolley buses could start to run. These big lorry type buses drove shortly after the war (approx. 1946-1947) until they were replaced by more civilised buses. (As people kept banging their heads on the ceiling when getting on) These were then at latter replaced by the trolley busses. The "flying snail" logo was also used on signs, as can be seen on the next photo: (Note the nice "toothed" edge on top of the sign to prevent vandalism) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heirflick Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 fair play to your agent broithe -good research there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 fair play to your agent broithe -good research there! There's actually two of them and they're twins - a great aid when working under-cover.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garfield Posted May 16, 2013 Author Share Posted May 16, 2013 Nice one... make sure to thank him for us, Broithe! It looks like the mystery hasn't been solved yet, so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 Nice one... make sure to thank him for us, Broithe! It looks like the mystery hasn't been solved yet, so. I have done - and I suspect he's not finished yet...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sentinel281 Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I know this does not really help any further, but just to add some footage: On Ebay two badges were sold in the last few weeks, also showing the DUTC lettering on it: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-enamel-badge-/261204690426?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item3cd10345fa&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-cap-badge-/261204710820?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3cd10395a4&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 They both were (wrongly) described as CIE ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister_for_hardship Posted May 17, 2013 Share Posted May 17, 2013 I know this does not really help any further, but just to add some footage: On Ebay two badges were sold in the last few weeks, also showing the DUTC lettering on it: http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-enamel-badge-/261204690426?pt=UK_Collectables_Badges_Patches_MJ&hash=item3cd10345fa&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 http://www.ebay.ie/itm/CIE-flying-snail-cap-badge-/261204710820?pt=UK_Collectables_Railwayana_RL&hash=item3cd10395a4&nma=true&si=tupth5Eav35GB2bL8T01bbfRqo8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 They both were (wrongly) described as CIE ones. The little enamel one is a modern replica, I got the tie pin version of this selling at Fry Model Railway souvenir shop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broithe Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 Anybody recognise this - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121275343322&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en - I can't find anything anywhere.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minister_for_hardship Posted February 14, 2014 Share Posted February 14, 2014 (edited) Its the Bowmakers Bank logo. Probably a customer giveaway item, back around the times before hi-vis vests and those miserable armbands were thought adequate for walking at night. Edited February 14, 2014 by minister_for_hardship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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