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Mayner

CIE coach sides to fit Dapol 60' Stanier coach kit.

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I have been looking at using the Airfix/GMR 60' Stanier coach as a donor body with etched brass sides for the 1st batch of main line coaches introduced by CIE in the 1950s.

 

Dapol have released these coaches in kit form http://dapol.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=177_60_87_220&product_id=1319

 

Several coach types were produced including: Buffet Car, Open Second, Side Corridor Second, Side Corridor Composite, Brake Second (railcar driving trailer). The coaches were initially introduced to provide modern trailer stock to run with the AEC railcars and later were widely used as hauled stock on both main and branch lines. Many of the corridor coaches were converted to Brake Steam Generator Vans to replace the tin vans on suburban trains, a sizable number of these coaches made it into preservation with the GSRPS, WISRA and more recently the DCDR

 

I am looking initially at sides for the Buffet and one of the Brake Steam Generator Vans to fit the Dapol body shell, with other varieties to follow if there is interest for 10 or more of each type.

 

The basic idea is to supply sides only to fit the Dapol body shell, and produce a correct scale length/width body shell if there is sufficient interest.

 

 

GSRPS Buffet 2.jpg

 

GSRPS Buffet Car Mallow 1984?

 

GSRPS Buffet.jpg

 

CIE rebuilt many of its older buffet coaches including some former GSWR coaches with B4 bogies in the late 1960s

 

http://www.cs.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se/CarriageInfo.asp?Ref=3340

Edited by Mayner

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Great idea John, I will register an interest in your etched brass sides please.

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Great idea John , a 2400 series dining / buffet car is much needed , the other coach I would love to see is one of the 1497/1503 laminates one of the last Inchicore built coaches these were 10'2" wide sometimes refered to as the "ultra wides" very similar to the earlier batch but wider the same profile as your tin vans they also had the improved Commonwealth bogies so the Bachmann commonwealth bogies would suit this model .

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3343839

Edited by flange lubricator

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The original premise is very thoughtful and clever.

LMS Period 111 carriages are 60' long and 9' 3" wide.

Most early CIE stock is 61' 6" long and 9' 6" wide, and the roof profile looks different, so clearly there are some dimensional compromises to be accepted.

I would think that CIE 10' 2" wide stock is going to be too "fat" to represent.

The LMS underframe isn't going to pass for a GSR one, given the GSR remained faithful to round rod and turnbuckle trussing, but the bogies aren't a million miles from GSR/early CIE ones.

The LMS underframe is also not going to pass muster as a Bulleid triangulated CIE underframe either, and I've never felt the BR Commonwelath looks much like a CIE one.

While all this may appear to narrow the field, as John has pointed out, quite a bit of stock was built that could be represented, if one accepts a 61' 6" x 9' 6" envelope with "normal" underframe and GSR type bogies.

 

All below are 61' 6" x 9' 6" with "normal" underframes and GSR type bogies unless stated.

 

Compo

2124 - 2129 of 1951, 60' x 9' 6"

2130 - 2136, 2139, 2144, 2152, 2155 of 1952/4

 

Third

1339 - 1355 of 1951/2 Side corridor

1356 - 1371 of 1953 open

 

Brake Third

1904 - 1908 of 1953 of which 1906/7 became driving trailers for AEC railcars for a time

 

Diners

2405 - 2418 of 1953/4 buffet, fitted with Hoffman roller bearing axleboxes.

Later fitted (late 1960's) with B4 bogies (without dampers like the Cravens).

2407 later became a kitchen car (1969), 2412 and 2416 later cafeteria cars.

 

Conversions were 2126/7/35 to radio studio coaches, later numbered (from 1966) RS22/3/4

The remaining compos were downgraded to all-third class in 1972. In 1974 these were converted to vans in the 257x and 258x series, as were five of the 1339 to 55 series thirds (258x and 259x).

The remainder of that batch of thirds became BSGSV's in 1977/8, 3201 - 12.

Some of the compo vans seem to have become BGSV's 3213-8 at the same time. Some compo/vans also became BSGSV's 3219 - 3224 in 1980.

Arrival of DART and Mk.3's meant that withdrawals were rapid from 1984 onwards.

 

As I said at the start, a very well thought out idea.

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Just to whet the appetite a bit:

 

1339-55 Series Thirds

 

Bredin MK 2 61 6 Composite.jpg

 

3201 Series BSGSV

 

Bredin Brake Standard Heating Van Conversion.jpg

 

BSGV

 

Thanks for that excellent summary of early CIE coaching stock.

 

While there are issues with length and end profile I saw the re-introduction of the Stanier 60' coach in combination with overlays as a relatively painless and inexpensive way for modellers who might want to try their hand at kitbashing to add a bit of variety to their roster.

 

Older stock was common on Dublin inner and outer suburban services up until the commissioning of the DART & Park Royal, Laminate and Craven stock with TL lighting were cascaded off the Intercity routes following the introduction of the MK3s.

 

A typical outer suburban working to Drogheda or Dundalk would have been made up of 3-4 non TL fitted coaches and a brake standard steam heating van hauled by a B201

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While there are issues with length and end profile I saw the re-introduction of the Stanier 60' coach in combination with overlays as a relatively painless and inexpensive way for modellers who might want to try their hand at kitbashing to add a bit of variety to their roster.

 

Older stock was common on Dublin inner and outer suburban services up until the commissioning of the DART & Park Royal, Laminate and Craven stock with TL lighting were cascaded off the Intercity routes following the introduction of the MK3s.

 

A typical outer suburban working to Drogheda or Dundalk would have been made up of 3-4 non TL fitted coaches and a brake standard steam heating van hauled by a B201

 

John, I assure you I meant no offence regarding the compromises. I think many modellers would find them most acceptable, and, as you say, they would provide an excellent way to introduce the less learned among us to a certain level of kit bashing, as well as providing something novel.

Speaking of kit-bashing, your drawings do show how adept Inchicore got at the 12 inches to one foot variety. Nice to see the BSGSV!

I have happy memories of the last of the CIE design stock on Dublin outer-suburbans, in tandem with Park Royals and BR and Dutch gen vans, hauled by A's, C's and GM's, so much so that my "modelling" these days mainly consists of working on preserved vehicles.

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Definitely interested john and I hope you get sufficient numbers to start producing them:tumbsup:

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By the by, the maroon versions of the LMS coaches appear to be only £11.80, against the crimson and cream at £12.90.

Replica do kits of B4's that appear to be a direct fit to Dapol coaches (same Mainline lineage?) Is that right?

And, yes, I would be interested too - in the BSGSV at least! Should have said so sooner.

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By the by, the maroon versions of the LMS coaches appear to be only £11.80, against the crimson and cream at £12.90.

Replica do kits of B4's that appear to be a direct fit to Dapol coaches (same Mainline lineage?) Is that right?

And, yes, I would be interested too - in the BSGSV at least! Should have said so sooner.

 

I noticed the price difference too, as I write this a pair of Maroon coaches should be winging their way south for evaluation. Possibly looking at a set of test etchings mid-September.

 

The big decision at this point is whether to reproduce the window frames and cover slips over the panel joints in relief by half etching the sides similar to the Worsley Works Park-Royals or to engrave the outline similar to my Tin Van kits.

 

It should be possible to buy the basic bits for a layout coach for around £30, with say another £10 for detailing (interior, castings, roof pipework, ventilators etc.

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By the by, the maroon versions of the LMS coaches appear to be only £11.80, against the crimson and cream at £12.90.

Replica do kits of B4's that appear to be a direct fit to Dapol coaches (same Mainline lineage?) Is that right?

And, yes, I would be interested too - in the BSGSV at least! Should have said so sooner.

 

I noticed the price difference too, as I write this a pair of Maroon coaches should be winging their way south for evaluation. Possibly looking at a set of test etchings mid-September.

 

The big decision at this point is whether to reproduce the window frames and cover slips over the panel joints in relief by half etching the sides similar to the Worsley Works Park-Royals or to engrave the outline similar to my Tin Van kits.

 

It should be possible to buy the basic bits for a layout coach for around £30, with say another £10 for detailing (interior, castings, roof pipework, ventilators etc.

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Preview 1953 Corridor 3rd shrunk drawn in late 1950s green style to provide some contrast. The 61'6" coaches shrink down nicely to fit the Dapol body shell without distorting the overall proportions as the sides of the Dapol coaches scale out marginally lower than the Irish coaches.

 

Half etching the sides leaves hinges, doorstops, widow frames and panel joints in relief, the builder can mark the outline of the doors using a square and a scriber.

 

I have also drawn up a jig for cutting out window openings, & drilling out for door handles and grab rails.

 

 

1953 Corridor 3rd Preview.jpg

Edited by Mayner

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John, are you still considering producing correct scale length and width CIE stock, or is it just the etches to fit the Dapol coach? Also, are the earlier heating and luggage van kits still available?

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The first batch of Buffet Car and Corridor Standard sides will be ready for shipping in about two weeks at $32NZ(£16stg)+shipping. The TPO/Tool Van will be available in November.

 

The first batch basically covers existing enquiries/orders, please send me a p.m. if you want to be added to the list for the next batch of sides/TPO kits.

 

DSCF2412.JPG

 

1953 Side Corridor Standard

 

DSCF2415.JPG

 

Close up window/door details

 

Iarnrod

 

I am not planning scale width/length CIE coaches in the immediate future or at least I have released the 20t flats and MGWR vans and loco. Tin & Luggage vans are out of stock.

Edited by Mayner

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DSCF2433.JPG

 

 

 

DSCF2437.JPG

 

Side Corridor (compartment side)

 

 

DSCF2441.JPG

 

Buffet

 

DSCF2448.JPG

 

Buffet kitchen side

 

The donor coaches are Dapol 60' Stanier Coaches. Plastic is removed from the area between the windows leaving a strip below the waist and a narrow strip above the windows. The sides are fixed in place with contact adhesive.

 

Comet Kits RTR Conversions and Building Coaches the Comet Way http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/ are probably the best instruction for this type of modification.

 

Comet recommend gluing the roof to the body before cutting out the sides when carrying out this sort of conversion. The flush glazing units on original Airfix/GMR/Dapol coaches were also used to lock the body in place on the floor and locate the roof.

 

I have built the models with removable roofs clipped in place to strips cut from the old glazing units glued to the remains of the Dapol sides.

 

I may be possible to kitbash the Dapol interior to fit the Side Corridor coach or scratchbuild an interior using plasticard and Ratio or Comet coach seats.

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The coaches look great, i'll take 2 and see how i get on with that for now. Do you think the roof vents are a bit big & could be replaced with

smaller one? =D

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Do you think the roof vents are a bit big & could be replaced with

smaller one? =D

 

I don't know if its the light colour the Dapol vents tend to stick out like a sore time. The one advantage is that they are separate from the roof moulding, so should be fairly simple to detail the roof of the Side Corridors with the distinctive toilet filler pipework in brass wire and replace the vents with something from Comet or MJT.

 

Coachman (Larry Goddard) had a thread on RM Web on detailing the Airfix/Dapol LMS coaches, including a re-skinning job with etched brass sides, advice on flattening the Dapol roof and detailing the interior

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67996-making-use-of-dapol-lms-coach-kits/

 

A slightly more modern version of the Corridor Seconds on Bulleid Triangulated underframe and commonwealth bogies.

 

 

 

Side corridor seconds.jpg

 

Side Corridor Second.jpg

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Thank's for the info, and the two pic's are good to have, it is so hard to get pictures of things like this.

Can i also ask are the numbers,logo and stripe done in white or light green or was both used & did some coaches not have the stripe?

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The coaches in the pictures are in preserved condition at Tralee and Tuam the late 80s early 90s. The GSRPS restored several of these coaches in Tralee & Mallow for use on excursions and the Fenit Line some of which found their way to Westrail in Tuam and the last of these coaches is preserved at Dunsandle.

 

JHB is probably the best to advise on livery, photos indicate that some early CIE built stock was painted plain unlined dark green without flying snail logo, repainted into the light green scheme with a single narrow eau-de-nil line at waist height before being painted into black and tan. Lettering in the green era seems to have been in light green (eau-e-nil)

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