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Mk 2 Supertrain Coaches

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CIE livery on 071 Class and Mk2s in 1984 - Belfast Central

 

iarnrod

 

Going by the photo you posted above, would it be an option and more economical to respray the locomotive you intend to use to match the MM Mk2s colour?

 

Eoin

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Eoin, that did cross my mind, and might be an option to pursue. I thought MM got it spot on though, with the CIE colour on the 141/181s, 071s and Cravens, so bit of a shame to get rid of the true colour, even if the cheaper option. Spraying the locos to match the Mk2s still makes the Cravens a different colour. Either way, it involves spraying something to get a happy medium. Shouldnt be the case at €56 a pop.

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You could use the new Hornby or forthcoming bachmann air con coaches as respray donors. Not 100% accurate but cheaper. Alternatively maybe one of the respray gang will do you a deal on a bulk order of that size.

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As an aside, when did the ends of the Supertrain Mk2's start getting painted all black as opposed to black/tan?

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You could always try weathering, you'd be surprised how it blends two different shades of livery together especially if the 071/141 is heavily weathered.

20150126_132650.jpg

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One could also wear dark glasses or perhaps rose tinted ones when running them on your layout , but you cannot escape the fact that I am about to drop the guts of €500 euro in to my local agent ( deposit already paid) for a set of seven of these coaches and there not the right colour !. If you have respray them or weather them that adds to the cost of them big time .

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I'd say a lot of these coaches will end up getting the two white stripes added to them. Firstly as a source of obtaining the much desired IR/IE gen van, and secondly to complete or add to a rake of orange roof IR/IE MK2's.

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More reference material here...

 

I think the jury is going to be out on this for a long time! Mk2s in supertrain livery feature, and I deffo think that the coaches, in reality, are lighter in colour than the orange on the 071s of the day.

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It's all in the eye of the beholder.

 

35 years ago I could not stomach the bright orange plastic on the Hornby CIE Hymek loco so hand painted it a darker shade, but never got around to the mk2a coaches.

 

DSC_6863.jpg

 

That photo represents nearly all the Irish passenger rolling stock I had back in 1978. Lima mk1s, and Hornby mk2s in horrible day-glo orange plastic, but they were the best one could get RTR back then. Pretty poor by todays standards. However, thanks to Paddy Murphy's business, I am now delighted to have a fleet of superb GM locos, rakes of superb Craven coaches and even a few Mk2d's to tarnish our layouts rails, combined with IFMs park royals and SF GSVs. Happy days, all my dreams for irish model railways have come true. MM have raised the bar so high our expectations have grown to new heights, perhaps unfairly so, but at €56 each it is a pity the colour seems slightly off the mark with the new coaches.

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Some pictures from IRRS Inchacore works visits late 1970s and early 1980s

 

001 & 071.jpg

 

There does not appear to have been a major difference in shade between the newly re-painted 001 Class and 071 in original livery after approx. 12months service and road grime. The B101 in the background shows how the Golden Brown eventually fades to pink.

 

The paintwork on the MK2D Supertrain sets would tended to have become more faded in comparison with the locos. The Supertrains were introduced over a relatively short period while the locos were re-painted on a more gradual basis as they went through the Works, some locos were still running around in the black and tan scheme in the late 70s.

 

MK2D & sts coaches.jpg

 

Recently re-painted MK2D, Laminate and Park Royal Coaches early 1980s. It looks like CIE have changed the shade of Golden Brown or possibly its the lighting or photographer.

 

Personally I would not get too worked up about the difference in shade between the coaches and 071 locos, the 071s were originally painted a darker richer shade of Golden Brown than the coaches, were intensively used and always seemed to be covered in road grime.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]16983[/ATTACH]

 

Recently re-painted MK2D, Laminate and Park Royal Coaches early 1980s. It looks like CIE have changed the shade of Golden Brown or possibly its the lighting or photographer.

 

Personally I would not get too worked up about the difference in shade between the coaches and 071 locos, the 071s were originally painted a darker richer shade of Golden Brown than the coaches, were intensively used and always seemed to be covered in road grime.

 

Its 5408 closest to the camera, the Presidential coach, which did not see a great deal of use compared to most MK2's so Id not use this as a comparison photo. Its parked in the same spot of the works that it usually resided in too. Its still in immaculate condition today too - the only surviving CIE MK2D kitchen

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The president coach was numbered 5406 first than 5408 so this coach could have been the real 5408 and seen more traffic.

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The president coach was numbered 5406 first than 5408 so this coach could have been the real 5408 and seen more traffic.

 

5408 in the photo and taken after conversion......moving on

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I hope the cranky mood in some of these posts is down to the 'January Blues' & that February will bring about a more positive vibe!! :-bd

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For Dave182 and others, if I may assist in putting to bed the confusion over the shades of tan / orange / "golden brown".

 

There were basically four shades, two being only an irrelevantly tiny bit different.

 

A. Original from 1962: unchanged on anything at all, bar brand new 071s, until the late 1970s.

 

B. Exceptionally slightly more orange version of the above, applied to everything painted from maybe about 1980 until the early 90s.

 

C. Distinctly, but only slightly more orange, applied to anything painted after about 1990.

 

D. A very much browner shade - more an orangey-brown than "orange with a brownish tint". This was on newly delivered 071s only: this colour was never used in Inchicore. It came about quite simply because GM painted them the wrong shade in Illinois. The CIE logos were non-standard too; all white, different font, larger roundel size. All 071s with this logo must by default have this one-off light brown, and all "standard orange" must by default have standard logos - if accuracy is desired.

 

Fading did play a part too. If you see a newly painted "E" class, say, or a tin van, in 1966, it looks just as bright orange as a Mk 2 in 1980. But as this colour faded, it looked a bit browner. Thus, a newly outshopped Mk 3 in 1986 would have looked more orange than, let's say, a Dutch van sitting beside it, though painted five years earlier in the same, or nearly same, shade.

 

Postscript: I saw a pic which someone had photoshopped of an 071 in NCC maroon. You've no idea how well it looked!

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JHB - excellent summary on the different shades of tan/orange.

 

In model terms, there should only be a very minimal or no difference in shade on the MM Mk2's to the MM CIE 141s/181s and 086. The difference in shading is vast, and is something that should have been copped at the pre-prod stage.

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Been posted before, but perhaps worth another viewing.

Would the "real" golden brown / orange please stand up...

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The real golden brown is subjective, but referencing photos from the period show there was little difference in colour between locos and Mk2s at that time, 071s dogy tan shade excluded.

 

I think the general consensus at the time of their release was that the CIE tan applied to the MM 141s/181s was an excellent reproduction in model form of the original CIE tan colour. If it aint broke and all that ......

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The real golden brown is subjective, but referencing photos from the period show there was little difference in colour between locos and Mk2s at that time, 071s dogy tan shade excluded.

 

I think the general consensus at the time of their release was that the CIE tan applied to the MM 141s/181s was an excellent reproduction in model form of the original CIE tan colour. If it aint broke and all that ......

 

Something similar to the shade used on the early livery MM Cravens would have been grand...

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Heard report this evening that people have returned these coaches to at least one retailer for a refund. It seems it is hard to find a coach with a straight black line on it as these two examples show. IMG_0064.jpg

IMG_8152.jpg

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EDIT: CROSSED with post above - OUCH!

 

Web photos, light, camera, scanners, white balance, JPG colour tone, etc, all leave room for colour tonal differences.

 

Examining a pair of old and new in the flesh is the only way to make a sound judgement, or a well taken photo of a pair of MM Mk2s, one earlier orange roofed IE/IR livery above one of the new supertrain livery coach. Side by side the supertrain coaches should and may have a different colour to the later IE/IR coaches, but only the mk1 eyeball can tell for sure. Despite the photos on this thread suggesting otherwise, I would be really surprised if they were the exact same colour. Have a look in a retail store to be sure and compare them side by side in the flesh! :)

Edited by Noel
crossed with post above

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JHB- I'm still laughing at your very informative and funny post above! It sums up the situation perfectly, and we all forget that technology was a lot different back then in terms of mixing paint, and the paint ingredients and colour charts. Now, off to Vinny Byrnes tomorrow for 2 cans of 'Exceptionally slightly more orange' and a small tin of 'Distinctly, but only slightly more orange'!!!

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JHB- I'm still laughing at your very informative and funny post above! It sums up the situation perfectly, and we all forget that technology was a lot different back then in terms of mixing paint, and the paint ingredients and colour charts. Now, off to Vinny Byrnes tomorrow for 2 cans of 'Exceptionally slightly more orange' and a small tin of 'Distinctly, but only slightly more orange'!!!

 

T7PO25VMVWHF1LEZBKMRJVXK_999x999.jpg

 

I recall a note on a drawing, back when I had a proper job - "Apply Vaseline very sparingly, then wipe it all off".

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]16992[/ATTACH]

 

I recall a note on a drawing, back when I had a proper job - "Apply Vaseline very sparingly, then wipe it all off".

 

Don't ever remember using Vaseline work or other wise. :banana:

Edited by burnthebox

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In model terms, the one shade is perfectly adequate in terms of accuracy for absolutely everything bar newly delivered 071s. Weathering of any models I have see thus treated is more than good enough to replicate actual weathering. Far more models are non weathered than the real thing, where every single thing was weathered after a few days in traffic. I remember seeing a newly painted 141 or 181 in Inchicore about 1970 (black'n'tan, obviously) and it looked so bright (well, the orange and white bits!).

 

For current comparison, Whitehead's 142 and Downpatrick's G613 are exactly right.

 

Obviously, every modeller has their personal preference, and their own take on the importance of accuracy, of lack of it. But for those who do seek accuracy, all colours in all CIE, IE, UTA or NIR liveries can easily be accurately recreated without doubt having to enter into it. Good news for modellers, of course!

 

I'm just imagining a laminate in Vaseline and marmalade livery, though......

Edited by jhb171achill

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In this case of People's Opinion Vs Paddy Murphy Esq., I'd like to produce some evidence for the defence M'Luds, ladies and langers - and thank JHB for putting me on the right track.

 

I must begin with the models themselves - I got two delivered today from a chap who wanted the "right" ones. He left me off to make a call on weathering colour and so on. I only did it as I felt I owe a duty to this little corner of the internet to put the hours in. I will return to normal tomorrow.

 

On first inspection, they are bang on models - better than the hornby ones by a country mile. End detail is particularly good, as is the underframe detail. The roof can sit up a little at either ends, but I think this has got to do with the internal glazing being stuck down with rat gut, rather than glue. An easy fix. There are some decoration issues, no doubt, again easily fixed.

 

DSCF9145.jpg

 

The roof pops off at either end, and with a bit of force comes away easy.

 

DSCF9147.jpg

 

I mixed up a pot of "irish Dirt" gouache and liberally applied and put to one side.

 

DSCF9148.jpg

 

DSCF9149.jpg

 

DSCF9150.jpg

 

Now, to take off the chassis... Push out the little nibs at the either end

 

DSCF9151.jpg

 

Then repeat with the central ones show

 

DSCF9154.jpg

 

DSCF9155.jpg

 

There are some wiggles and overspray, but nothing to get excited about. IF you like watching trains with the 2 foot rule, they are bang on. If you like to lick and sniff them, well you may want to correct it :)

 

DSCF9156.jpg

 

Here's the bodyside under harsh workbench light, and by golly it looks bright indeed.

 

DSCF9157.jpg

 

Here's the dried roof...

 

DSCF9158.jpg

 

And now the removal of that dirt with a brush and some clean water, leaving the gouache where you'd expect it to stay.

 

DSCF9159.jpg

 

I got a rotring pen - 0.18mm and drew a nice thin line from one point to the other. You can see the reflection of the ink in the lower left. I also filled in beneath the doors, cos the photos told me to.

 

DSCF9160.jpg

 

This is the Standard Open under distress.

 

DSCF9161.jpg

 

To seal the water based ink - and this should work with felt tip permanent markers too - I sealed it with Vallejo Gloss Varnish - 2 min touch dry time, and water based.

 

DSCF9162.jpg

 

Two minutes later and a coat of gunk on.

 

brief adjournment M'Lud..

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Without wishing to get drawn into the various shades of orange debate, on which I would defer to the superior knowledge of others, I would like to raise a few of questions regarding the model of the catering car depicted on the MM website.

 

MM Catering Car Model

MM MkIId Catering.jpg

 

Firstly, in the model the small window in the kitchen area (A) has a vent in the centre and what appear to be filled in windows on either side. Were these vehicles not delivered with all three sections glazed, the centre section being a sliding window for ventilation? Is the appearance of the ‘filled in’ windows on the model just because of a poor photo? Perhaps someone who has one of these models, or who has seen one, can confirm whether or not this is the case.

 

Secondly, the door leading into the kitchen area (B) has no drop light, which the prototype clearly did. I presume that this is because the same bodyshell tooling from the IR / IÉ models was used and that the door window had been removed in the prototypes in later years. This would seem to be quite a serious fault in the model.

 

Prototype Catering Car

MM MkIId Catering - Prototype.jpg

MM MkIId Catering - Prototype.jpg

Edited by josefstadt

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we resume....

 

DSCF9163.jpg

 

So what you see above are the 2 weathered roofs and a weathered side, both with the dirt toned down so it sits in cracks like the real thing, but both under the spotlight of 3 workzone high intensity lamps - not unlike those in glass cabinets in shops and the like. The pot of "Dirt" in the corner will be applied to the rear, and tumblehome, with an airbrush and any excess on the upper panel taken off with very fine 00000 metal wool.

DSCF9164.jpg

 

DSCF9166.jpg

 

DSCF9167.jpg

 

DSCF9168.jpg

 

DSCF9169.jpg

 

There's no camera or photoshop trickery involved here. It's just a spotlight where I do my spray work - I know it's at night - I'll get more in the natural light tomorrow.

 

DSCF9170.jpg

 

I put two locos in the booth - the one on the right is my trusty IE loco that has paint match scars all over the roof, but it's lighter in shade by about 10%. The 183 is still in it's box cause it has a shade of peach that my mother wore on a hat to my wedding, but I ain't never seen it on a 141, and I spent my childhood beside the lmk-lmk jct line. She will be corrected in time.

 

As for photographic evidence see below.

 

Exhibit_A.jpg

 

This is a rake of MK2's in both "tippex" and "supertrain" - I don't see much difference.

 

exhibit_c.jpg

 

See the light at the exit to kent hitting on the right of the coach - does that look like dirty brown like the vaunted 071? Nope.

 

exhibit_D.jpg

 

Oh, but perhaps this one does, but, what, hey wait a minute that's not supertrain?

 

Exhibit_E.jpg

 

Penultimately, this photo tells a key story - while the resolution is crap, this man had a good iso camera. The brown of the EGV in the background, versus the brighter orange tone, even in an overcast dublin, tells me that there was a decent variant.

 

DSCF9171.jpg

 

Lastly, This is a selection of MKIII coaches that have come from all the pro sprayers, here and abroad, myself included. Shilling if you can tell me which is right?

 

In summation, these are very fine coaches, that need a bit of tlc to get right, but don't you have to put on buffer beam detailing with locos and such? So if you can handle buffer beam detailing, you can handle a pen/lining pen/rotring pen, right? Paddy Murphy Esq did not spray the black band on them, so give him a break. Some clown on the far side of the planet screwed up, but that's no reason not to invest in them. Personally, I'll be buying all eight when I can, and weathering them as above. They just shout Miners Strike, Three Day Weeks, and "Don't be a TV sponger" to me.

 

The defence rests, M'lud.

  • WOW! 1

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After a short recess to pick ones jaw off the ground the jury has come back with a unanimous decision of WOW!! spot on.

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That's a really good fix, and it certainly tones down the colour a notch or two.

 

Couple of points though on the liveries. When IR came into being in 1987, most coaches simply were given a deep clean and had white striping applied as opposed to a full repaint. Full repaints happened over time. So initially, there would have been no difference in shade between CIE livery and IR livery on the majority of coaching stock.

 

The last picture of 5230 would have been taken after 1980, as identified by the full black ends, so a slightly brighter orange/tan shade was in use then, which would most likely account for the difference.

 

Josefstadt - I'm fairly certain MM only created one mould type per coach variant. In addition to the windows, you will also note that the vents on each side are the later retro fitted type as opposed to the original vents. The correct type is actually shown on the old Lima type Mk2 coaches. Might be available as an aftermarket part somewhere. The missing window could be carefully drilled out, I suppose.

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