The Official Irish 'Might Have Beens' Thread

[minister_for_hardship]

To kick off, two CB&SCR examples, both put forward Dec 1910:

 

Large goods 4-8-0T

Boiler 5' 1 3/4'' dia.

Grate area 30.6 sq ft

Heating surface 1,786 sq ft

4 safety valves, on top of firebox

Max height from rail level 12' 10''

Driving wheels 4' 5'' dia

2 x inside cylinders 20 1/2'' x 26''

180lbs boiler pressure

Tractive effort 27,830lbs @ 75% pressure

Water 1,800 gals

Coal 3 tons

Weight 77T 5c

 

Cab profile to be the same as existing 4-6-0Ts so would look like an elongated, big boilered Bandon Tank with a squat dome and chimney.

Edited April 14, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Broithe]

The Rathdowney Review is published annually, with both current and historical features in it. An edition from a few years back claimed that there had once been plans for a tramway the four miles to Ballybrophy, though I've never found any corroboration for this.

 

It is plausible, as Rathdowney had a substantial mart in the old days, and Perry's Brewery could have provided a bit of traffic, too - apart from any passenger movements.

[minister_for_hardship]

CB&SCR proposed 0-6-6-0 Beyer Garratt

 

6' dia boiler & Belpaire firebox

Heating surface 2,188 sq ft

Grate area 34.8 sq ft (larger than 800 class!)

4 x cylinders 16'' x 20'' c/w Walschaert's valve gear

Tot. length over buffers 59' 10''

Weight 87 1/2T

180lbs /sq '' boiler pressure

Water 2,200 gals

Coal 3 1/2 tons

Tractive effort 30,100lbs

[Warbonnet]

CIE proposed to build six twin engined sulzer locomotives in 1948. The engines themselves were built by vickers armstrong but instead were used in the B class after a period of storage http://www.derbysulzers.com/cie.html

[minister_for_hardship]

According to lore, CIE officials examined the unfinished Bulleid Leaders with a view to purchase, but nothing came of it.

 

According to the Irish Steam Loco register: a loco originally destined for the MGWR ended up in Brazil, as Maua Railway No.1 and it's still there today...http://www.revistaferroviaria.com.br/galeria_foto_mostra.asp?InCdMateria=5041&InCdFoto=191

Edited April 14, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[minister_for_hardship]

The Cork & Macroom had notions of extending to Ballyvourvey and Kenmare and also a branch to Coachford.

[GSR 800]

The proposed SG2 class of 1952 firebox modifications and sliding window 4000 gallon F type tender.Also no 803 and 804 deidre and grainne. 803 only got as far as her boiler which was later used for spares

[GSR 800]

GNRI 4-6-0 proposal. 61 tons 5,7 drivers 15 ton axle load. would have looked like elongated S class or holton b12

[minister_for_hardship]

The IRRS journal had an article recently on the diesel locos tendered for by the GNR, only one of which actually made it off the drawing board.

 

The link up between the Cork, Blackrock & Passage and the Cork & Muskerry via the Cork Electric Tramways. The tramway chose 2 ft 11 7⁄16 in gauge to allow normal 3' rolling stock to work through on and the CB&PR and C&MLR had identical coupling systems.

 

The proposed fleet of mini 'Turfburners', outline sketches exist of these.

Edited April 15, 2015 by minister_for_hardship

[Garfield]

The IRRS journal had an article recently on the diesel locos tendered for by the GNR, only one of which actually made it off the drawing board.

 

Donal Murray wrote an article about the proposed GNR diesel locos for the November 2005 edition of 'New Irish Lines'. It includes notes and drawings for each proposed loco. He also wrote about the proposed electric locos in a later issue (can't remember which one). Available to download here: http://newirishlines.org/archive-2/

[richrua]

World Cup team for 2010 who lost to France at the play off stage ... Thanks to that handball

[minister_for_hardship]

Grand Central Station....Dublin.

 

And a terminus in Blacksod Bay.

 

http://archiseek.com/2013/1872-proposing-a-grand-central-station-for-dublin/

 

http://archiseek.com/2013/1915-railway-terminus-blacksod-bay-co-mayo/

[Broithe]

a terminus in Blacksod Bay.

 

http://archiseek.com/2013/1915-railway-terminus-blacksod-bay-co-mayo/

 

There was some talk of that earlier - http://irishrailwaymodeller.com/showthread.php/1416-New-Recruit!!?p=21672#post21672 .

[jhb171achill]

1. In 1947, the NCC carried out a survey of the Ballycastle line with a view to converting it to 5' 3". Unsurprisingly, the conclusion was that it would be too expensive for the traffic on offer. The UTA would gave closed it a few years later in any case.

 

2. In the early 60s, the UTA investigated building a direct curve if the Belfast Central into Great Victoria Street. This was shelved as they decided that the necessary curve would be too sharp. Thirty years later, they built it anyway!

 

3. During World War 2, consideration was given to quadrupling the Belfast - Lisburn line due to the possibility of very greatly increased military traffic to the American air base at Gortnagallon on the Antrim branch, some part of which at least might have had to be doubled.

 

4. The transatlantic port idea above had numerous manifestations. Belmullet would be the terminus, and various routes were proposed to connect it to the railway network. One traversed the north Mayo coast via Ballycastle, Co Mayo; another (which actually was the last proposed, about 1909) went direct from Ballina through Crossmolina and Bangor Erris. Thus one actually made it into a school atlas as having been built! Another, which without doubt would have been Ireland's most picturesque railway, would have left the Achill line about three mikes west of Mallaranny, struck out on a long Cahirciveen-style viaduct across Bellacragher Bay, and proceeded north via Castlehill, Ballycroy and Bangor Erris, before turning west to Belmullet.

 

5. When the 800 class were built, their anticipated lifespan in full front line service would gave seen them operating until about 2000! "Maedb" in black'n'tan, anyone?

 

6. The UTA gave consideration to painting ALL steam locos - even narrow gauge and shunters, in a lined light apple green livery. Only "WT" No. 5 ever received this, and as an extremely short-lived experiment.

 

7. The NCC tested a 3ft gauge railcar on the former Ballymena & Larne line. It had been built as a one-off for export to a South American line (anyone know where it went?). Had they taken the view that it would have been suitable, it would have been a precursor to a substantial dieselisation of the B & L and Ballycastle narrow gauge lines; possibly the Victoria Road - Strabane line too.

[GSR 800]

 

5. When the 800 class were built, their anticipated lifespan in full front line service would gave seen them operating until about 2000! "Maedb" in black'n'tan, anyone?

 

 

 

Bit strange but,considering the Scotsman now nearly 100 years old was still working (despite her seeming to be constantly in doncaster with cracked crankpins) so if the steam era for some reason had never been brought to an end or effientcy of steam had improved to provide instant steam(this was already discussed in another post)i dont see why the 800s wouldnt have lasted into 2000 or even later.I also bring up the question why werent they converted to oil burning?

[jhb171achill]

Oil conversions were greeted with mixed views among the engineering bods in Inchicore. Had steam continued, I dare say they would have continued with experiments in the oil burning world. With oil and coal being both imported into Ireland, the price of each would have had a major bearing on this.

 

I mentioned that 800 etc would have been in main line service until maybe 2000. I'm quite sure that depending on funding for new steam engines in, say, the 1990s, they might have lasted longer in front-line service. However, they'd likely have eked out their days on whatever freight was on offer. They'd probably still be about today.

 

As we all know, it was by no means uncommon for steam locomotives to see out a century and more in working order - all over the world and throughout the steam era.

[minister_for_hardship]

Bit strange but,considering the Scotsman now nearly 100 years old was still working (despite her seeming to be constantly in doncaster with cracked crankpins) so if the steam era for some reason had never been brought to an end or effientcy of steam had improved to provide instant steam(this was already discussed in another post)i dont see why the 800s wouldnt have lasted into 2000 or even later.I also bring up the question why werent they converted to oil burning?

 

4472 was worked and worked hard, craned and loaded into ships and onto low loaders god knows how many times, so things getting cracked and strained is hardly surprising. But steam is very labour intensive, imagine that's why it survived so long in places like India and China.

[Warbonnet]

4472 was worked and worked hard, craned and loaded into ships and onto low loaders god knows how many times, so things getting cracked and strained is hardly surprising. But steam is very labour intensive, imagine that's why it survived so long in places like India and China.

 

They should really rename Scotsman 'Trigger's Broom'...

[minister_for_hardship]

 

7. The NCC tested a 3ft gauge railcar on the former Ballymena & Larne line. It had been built as a one-off for export to a South American line (anyone know where it went?). Had they taken the view that it would have been suitable, it would have been a precursor to a substantial dieselisation of the B & L and Ballycastle narrow gauge lines; possibly the Victoria Road - Strabane line too.

 

Was that the one that Harland and Wolff built? Any pics of it on trial?

Think Railway Mag printed a grainy pic of it when new/just delivered a while back.

[Junctionmad]

Noel, of this parish, was recently explaining to me, that there was a proposed branch line from bray to enniskerry, which never got built . But various embankments and stone work were laid that can be seen along the current road from the motorway to enniskerry

 

Anyone know more .

[jhb171achill]

Minister; H & W did indeed build it, though I'm nearly sure it had a Gardner engine.

 

Junctionmad; the Enniskerry Railway ran out of money before it was barely started, and I think there were issues about the chosen route. At least one archway was built and may still be seem just below the village.

 

Re 800's possible withdrawal date, Inchicore thinking would have been guided by their thoughts on what techology was available at that time. No doubt Oliver Bullied would have had some other theories, as would CMEs in more recent times.

[Junctionmad]

Re 800's possible withdrawal date, Inchicore thinking would have been guided by their thoughts on what techology was available at that time. No doubt Oliver Bullied would have had some other theories, as would CMEs in more recent times.

 

If you read railway technical history, It was clear that as much mis-placed emotion as technicalities convinced some in the railway world that steam locomotives would last much longer then they did. It was clear from post war America , where much railway technology had come, that the diesel was trouncing the steam loco. The main issues were its capital cost and initial technical complexity.

 

While its certainly was a " nice what might have been " , its s miracle stream traction lasted as long as it did . as for taking 800s out before their time, well CIE has a superb history of that .!!!

[Mayner]

Was that the one that Harland and Wolff built? Any pics of it on trial?

Think Railway Mag printed a grainy pic of it when new/just delivered a while back.

 

There is a couple of photos and a short piece on the diesel railcar in E M Patterson's The Ballymena Lines. The builder is said to be the Belfast firm of Gardner-Edwards, a very neat looking single unidirectional unit possibly with an underfloor engine powering the trailing bogie with coupling rod drive.

[minister_for_hardship]

If you read railway technical history, It was clear that as much mis-placed emotion as technicalities convinced some in the railway world that steam locomotives would last much longer then they did. It was clear from post war America , where much railway technology had come, that the diesel was trouncing the steam loco. The main issues were its capital cost and initial technical complexity.

 

While its certainly was a " nice what might have been " , its s miracle stream traction lasted as long as it did . as for taking 800s out before their time, well CIE has a superb history of that .!!!

 

The 800's didn't have a 'fair go', only giving a tiny hint what they were able to do before the shortages of WW2. Still, think there were way oversized and a more modest 400 or 500 class sized loco would have better suited the GSR, with a bit more flexibility than just Dub-Cork.

[airfixfan]

Mayner is correct there are 2 good photos of the railcar on trial opposite page 129 of the Ballymena Lines and a short paragraph on page 125 about the only appearance of a railcar on the NCC NG lines. The trial took place just after the railway strike of 1933 had ended which killed off parts of the NCC NG network and other lines such as the Castlederg line as well.

[Junctionmad]

The 800's didn't have a 'fair go', only giving a tiny hint what they were able to do before the shortages of WW2. Still, think there were way oversized and a more modest 400 or 500 class sized loco would have better suited the GSR, with a bit more flexibility than just Dub-Cork.

 

Indeed, one wondered at the decision of the GSR to produce them. it must have been a reaction to the designs being built interwar in the UK. the " sure well have one of them too, irish complex "

[jhb171achill]

The GSR were keen to have "flagship" train, hence not only the 800 class but also the "steels", i.e. steel-sided ("Bredin") coaches which were in fact very much influenced by contemporary LMS design. In my grandfather's time, senior design people from Inchicore, Dundalk, York Road, Derby and Swindon made visits to each other. I am unaware of whether LNER or SR people were involved.

 

It is probably fair to say that the GSR would have done better to concentrate on more, or upgraded, 400 or "Woolwich" classes.

[jhb171achill]

In very early days, a "might have been" would have involved the Ulster Railway's main line approaching Belfast via Hillhall, Tullynacross, Ballylesson and what is now broadly the Malone area, with a Belfast terminus at Stranmillis.

[GSR 800]

In my opinion i partly agree with you.I believe the 800s were useful engines but deprived of their chance to truly be recondnised as this.The Woolwiches were brilliant locos and were well known for their reliability.As for the 400s i think when the 500s were designed 5-6 of the 400s should have been scrapped to make more 500s because when they were 4 cylinder machines they were notoriosly unrealiable.Yes, their rebuilding hugely improved them,but cost the GSR alot.The steel sided coaches were actually a step forward in irish coach building but the GSR did not have to make such a big deal about them.The purple/maroon livery of the BRs mk1s.

[jhb171achill]

The 800 class did stretch the GSR financially, but the opinions I quote are those of Inchicore at the time, not entirely mine; I simply state that this is what they thought - which of course, the benefit of retrospect can have proved to be right or wrong.

 

The 400 class were perceived to be way better than the 500s by those involved with them, while the Woolwiches had better route availability.

 

Had the war and the advent of diesels not happened, we'd have seen great feats accomplished by the 800s indeed.

[GSR 800]

Do you know the fastest an 800 was recorded at?

[jhb171achill]

I'm not certain what the absolute fastest was, GSR; but on test they just exceeded 100 mph on a few occasions.

 

As an aside, one must assume that the track was a good bit better then - without all the yellow machines and complicated procedures they use today!

[GSR 800]

I'm not certain what the absolute fastest was, GSR; but on test they just exceeded 100 mph on a few occasions.

 

As an aside, one must assume that the track was a good bit better then - without all the yellow machines and complicated procedures they use today!

 

100mph! that must have been a great site 800 roaring past .You would think track maintinance would be better now.Does that mean the tracks now cant hold as much axel load?

[Noel]

Grand Central Station....Dublin.

 

http://archiseek.com/2013/1872-proposing-a-grand-central-station-for-dublin/

 

Wow that was an awesome idea! What ingenuity.

[Noel]

I'm not certain what the absolute fastest was, GSR; but on test they just exceeded 100 mph on a few occasions.

 

As an aside, one must assume that the track was a good bit better then - without all the yellow machines and complicated procedures they use today!

 

Was the 800 class not designed specifically for the Cork-Dublin route and especially to be able to pull a long passenger express up the tunnel gradient out of Cork without the need for double or triple heading or having to stop after the gradient to uncouple the extra loco needed for the gradient? I though the design spec was tractive effort rather than speed.