Midland Great Western Railway carriage livery and Broadstone photographs.

[Ian]

Hello People

 

I'm new to this forum but looking forward to some interesting chat and discussion. I'm currently working on a layout based on Mulranny/Malaranny on the MGWR line From Westport to Achill circa 1900-1914. Rails to Achill by Jonathan Beaumont has proved an excellent resource so far. Does anyone know where i could possibly source photographs of MGWR carriages during that period. Im aware the livery has been described as a mid brown with yellow lining but a visual reference showing how it looked would be useful.

 

Also out of curiosity. Do any photographs exist of Broadstone terminus in MGWR days, Ive seen images of the works and exterior but never any of the platform area and train shed, would be great to see what it was like.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated

 

Ian

[Garfield]

Hi Ian,

 

If you don't have it already, 'The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland' by Ernie Shepherd is a good place to start. Plenty of photos, but all in black and white. It's unlikely there are any colour photos of MGWR coaches in their original liveries... I certainly haven't seen any, at least.

[GSR 800]

Hi Ian,

 

If you don't have it already, 'The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland' by Ernie Shepherd is a good place to start. Plenty of photos, but all in black and white. It's unlikely there are any colour photos of MGWR coaches in their original liveries... I certainly haven't seen any, at least.

 

Would it have looked like the LNER livery Garfield?

[Garfield]

Would it have looked like the LNER livery Garfield?

 

I've no idea, to be honest.

 

Jhbachill171 of this parish will no doubt be along shortly... he wrote 'Rails Around Achill' and loves waxing lyrical about liveries.

[GSR 800]

Alright sound.Sure to have a long talk with him.

[Ian]

Thanks garfieldsghost i was kind of suspecting colour pictures to be a big ask, but b/w photographs should at least help give an idea of the style of lining and paintwork.

[iarnrod]

Think there is only about three books that deal specifically with MGWR. Ernies Shepherds book is an excellent starting point. MGWR in pictures by the IRRS is another one. Des Coakham's Irish Broad Gauge Carriages might have some stuff in it. Only other MGWR book that I can think of is Rails to Achill.

Edited April 23, 2015 by iarnrod

[jhb171achill]

A layout based on Mallaranny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I can't answer this post at all, as I am drowning in drooling at the prospect..... There are huge possibilities in modelling. D16 4.4.0's, six wheeled Midland coaches, and as for the wagons!!

 

Ian, PM me and I'll answer in detail when I calm down.......

 

......and, I can show you actual MGWR brown paint, which was a shade darker than LNER or GNR (I).

[minister_for_hardship]

A layout based on Mallaranny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I can't answer this post at all, as I am drowning in drooling at the prospect..... There are huge possibilities in modelling. D16 4.4.0's, six wheeled Midland coaches, and as for the wagons!!

 

Ian, PM me and I'll answer in detail when I calm down.......

 

......and, I can show you actual MGWR brown paint, which was a shade darker than LNER or GNR (I).

 

Oh, no....look what you've started now...

[Broithe]

A layout based on Mallaranny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I can't answer this post at all, as I am drowning in drooling at the prospect..... There are huge possibilities in modelling. D16 4.4.0's, six wheeled Midland coaches, and as for the wagons!!

 

Ian, PM me and I'll answer in detail when I calm down.......

 

......and, I can show you actual MGWR brown paint, which was a shade darker than LNER or GNR (I).

 

Type with one hand, whilst breathing as slowly as possible in and out of a paper bag.

 

[David Holman]

Can only agree it is a fabulous subject for modelling, though dare I say that, if you are going to model something that will require so much scratch building, hopefully you are doing it in 21mm gauge? Like JHB, my saliva glands are already working overtime.

Wolf Dog has to be there!

[jhb171achill]

It's morning. I've calmed down.

 

Right. Where do we start.

 

Mulrany (or Mallaranny) has a lot going for it as a layout for a number of reasons.

 

1. Scenic setting

2. Ease of operation

3. Simple track plan. but with enough to provide interesting through traffic and station shunting

4. Original building - or most of it - still accessible to photograph

5. Sufficient photographic evidence to assist the modeller

6. Throughout its (short) life, the station didn't change, therefore you can set it in MGWR or GSR times without changing the track layout or buildings. The one and only significant change in the station's appearance in all of its life was the GSR repaint of station woodwork from MGWR pillar-box red and cream to GSR dark green and dark cream.

 

If there could be said to be any "cons" as opposed to "pros", that would be locomotives and rolling stock, of which nothing at all is available as RTR. If the accuracy of locomotives, carriages and wagons isn't an issue, then no problem. If it is, then what you would need to consider is conversions or scratchbuilds of MGWR six-wheelers, as these constituted virtually the entire passenger stock until GSR days. Prior to 1925, bogies were almost unknown and would only have appeared once or twice a year - if that - on a harvestman's emigration special, some of which loaded to 6 coaches.

 

Locomotives were all J26 type 0.6.0T prior to 1905, and D16 4.4.0 "Achill Bogie" afterwards. The D16 was quite a small 4.4.0 and I'm sure there is some proprietary model which might be altered to look close enough. (The black and white lining on the green livery might be fiddly, though many on these boards would be able to prove me well wrong on that count). For the modeller, GSR days provide a little more variety in the form of an occasional ex-GSWR D17 4.4.0, but overall on account of lightweight trackwork, very few loco classes were allowed. Also, all locos would be plain all-over grey.

 

A layout set in about 1927 might be interesting, as some locos would still be in MGWR green, others in new plain grey. Perhaps one might carry the short lived lined "royal blue".

 

With a typical train service then consisting of two sets, which tended to cross in Newport though facilities always existed at Mulrany, two locomotives would be a minimum. Depending on space, fiddle yard or cash and modelling reserves, half a dozen might be good. A D16 in MGWR green, one in blue and one in all-grey. Plus a grey (GSWR) D17, and two J26 tanks, one each in green and grey.

 

Carriages would have a standard first, second and third plus a full brake or brake third in each train set - all six wheeled. After the mid 1910s, it tended to be two six-wheelers and a brake instead of the aforementioned: a three coach set instead of four. All would be brown, unless you're setting it in the mid 1910s where for a brief time, some (maybe just one on the layout) would be blue and white (not cream) with gold lining. While the "Tourist Express" never went to Achill, coaches painted thus appeared now and again all over the Midland system, a bit like an "Enterprise" liveried 201 turning up on a timber train in Waterford. (Belmond 201 on the weedspray in Navan, anyone?)

 

Modeller's Licence could have the Tourist Train travelling to Achill. Had it done so, a destination might well have been Mulrany itself, due to the railway company's hotel there, rather than Achill, so turning it and stabling it would be a possibility, as would the use of modeller's licence to allow larger MGWR express engines to arrive, e.g. the big "Mail Engines" (drooling recommences).

 

Freight traffic in Mulrany was by far the lightest on the line, with barely a wagon a day in GSR days. Yet, the place retained both its sidings until the end. The goods shed was of interesting construction too, as was the signal box, with a large store attached. At the time the line was opened, cattle traffic was initially buoyant on fair days but this declined soon after, as the emphasis moved away from the small cattle fair there to those at Achill Sound and, above all, Newport; the latter remaining very busy until closure.

 

In fact, goods traffic was so busy at closure time that serious consideration was given to retaining Westport - Newport as a good-only line, as much incoming mixed goods was apparent as well as outgoing cattle. On a model, why not Mulrany instead?

 

Another "might-have-been" for Mulrany was turf traffic, which was being proposed just as closure was being planned. A Bord na Mona style operation was proposed a few miles on the Newport side, though it never even began to provide enough to fill a few wagons a week at most. Could a 3ft gauge turf line, on a model, feed turf to Mulrany's goods siding?

 

A few thoughts and ideas off the top of my head. If I think of more I'll post accordingly.

 

I often thought of doing a layout based on Achill as if it had survived into the 70s, allowing me to run a branch train of a 141, a Park Royal and a tin van - or the like.

[jhb171achill]

Oh yes.................. I meant to say.

 

I have a sample of MGWR red station paint, and of GSR green for the same purpose. I can also arrange for you to see both MGWR brown and the "Tourist Express" blue at Downpatrick, if you're ever in a position to visit there. So, colour wise, in Midland days you're looking at a livery for stations of almost British Post Office red and cream; the red would be on footbridges too, and the cream on wooden fencing. Carriages were a mid brown all over with (initially) white roofs, which didn't stay white, so weathering is a must on all but maybe one roof! Chassis black, carriage ends brown like body sides. Lettering and lining were gold, though for a while in later days (approximately 1910-8) yellow was used for lining for economy. In 1918 (or possibly 1915 - haven't been able to establish exactly) the MGWR changed to a very deep maroon, probably not unlike the dark crimson lake the GSWR used. Lining and lettering remained the same. If you follow matters DCDR, look at the (accurate GSWR) paint of coaches 836 and 1097, and maybe go a slight shade lighter. Locomotives were a shade of green, the details of which I got from the late Bob Clements. This was darker than Isle of Man green, but considerably lighter than CIE loco green. So if you look ta an Isle of Man green "Ailsa" period loco, and go a shade darker, you're about right. Clements offered to give me a sample of it had some twenty five years ago or so, but he died before I was able to call with him and it was thrown out! Around 1905-10, a few locos appeared in royal blue with black and white lining, and some coaches (by no means all - only a few) were repainted this blue on lower panels, with white on upper; ends plain blue, lining in gold, lettering in shaded gold. Must have looked amazing.

 

The MGWR painted wagons a dark grey, darker than latter-day CIE by some margin. Not quite the slate grey / black of the GSWR, though. One of Henry Casserley's pictures taken at Achill in 1934 shows a DSER wagon, still in that company's livery and lettering; the grey on it is dark too. I would go for a shade in between GSR locomotive grey and LMS wagon grey. Unfortunately, the exact details of the shade haven't survived.

 

Now I'd better go and have me lunch. Do PM me if you've any questions.

[leslie10646]

Think there is only about three books that deal specifically with MGWR. Ernies Shepherds book is an excellent starting point. MGWR in pictures by the IRRS is another one. Des Coakham's Irish Broad Gauge Carriages might have some stuff in it. Only other MGWR book that I can think of is Rails to Achill.

 

Just to say the Irish Railways in Pictures No.2 - The Midland Great Western is available from me for £2.95 sterling, plus postage (which looks like £2.45).

 

If someone wants one and is travelling on the RPSI South Munster railtour then I'll hand it over for €5.

 

Just e-mail me at

 

lesliemcallister@aol.com

 

I need to know how many before I travel on 7 May!!!!

 

Leslie

[jhb171achill]

Indeed, Leslie — that was an excellent little volume, as was its GNR companion. Looking forward to seeing you on the tour - got the seating plan finished last night so your ticket should wing its way imminently!

 

To anyone else travelling on the RPSI May Tour, that applies to you too......

[Ian]

Just returned from work to find a wealth of information, thank you very much JHB

 

You pretty much described my reasons for choosing that prototype

 

I was actually stuck between modelling the Achill or Clifden line,both quite similar in their origin and short lived lives.

 

I guess as a general question i've been debating about modelling in 21mm. purely because thats a new area for me. But mabey it's worth giving a try because it would be nice get the broad gauge look. I just wouldn't know where to start, i presume rails have to be bought and sleepers and points made. Is it costly?

 

Modelling locos and rolling stock i'm looking forward to. We're using 3d printers where i work so this would be a great and fun experiment on pushing my skills in that area. But again, building driving wheels and all the functioning parts seems a bit daunting. But i guess never say never.

 

Also while ive been sketching and working from photographs the plan is to hopefully take a holiday to that area during the summer, The Greenway itself i've heard is a good enough reason to visit.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Ian

[Mayner]

One of the beauties of a layout based on the Achill line is that you can get by with very little in the way of locos and stock. In 4mm the E & the MGWR & GSWR Convertible Wagons are available from SSM, the D17 is on the SSM wish list. Jeremy Suter once produced a very nice MGWR open box wagon. Kits for the horse box and meat van are just about ready for release and if you can wait long enough the D Class and some of the MGWR 6 wheel coaches are on my wish list.

 

If you have the space O Gauge would be a better option than 4mm for building locos and stock. Dave Holman's SLNCR layout shows what can be achieved in a small space in 7mm using a combination of kits and scratchbuilding. If you are planning on 3d printing the larger scales are more forgiving of the coarse surface texture you get with the 3d printing process.

[jhb171achill]

If you look at some of the 21mm layouts about, the extra effort is very, very well worth if; that said, it's not for an amateur like I would be myself! David Holman's SLNCR is inspirational, and others on both 4mm and 7mm scales with correct gauge track are truly superb.

 

Ian, you'll find no shortage among those here of advice, tips and shared skills. You've privately pinged me already; please feel free to do so via my private email which I gave you and I will provide what assistance I can.

 

Look at the links on this site to manufacturers like SSM models and others. Kits are available, as Mayner mentioned, of a number of things suitable for you, and a recent post showed a truly superb six-wheeler made out of a couple of Hornby "Thomas" four wheelers, so alterations of manufactured stuff is also an option if you go for ordinary 00 scale.

[Jawfin]

My attempt at photographing the blue on 53M (seen here) and the underframe of 13M, the body of which was scrapped by the RPSI - both are at Downpatrick, but I'd certainly recommend seeing them in person. I haven't noticed any brown on them or 25M, now, I must look out for that

[jhb171achill]

Excellent, Jawfin. That is indeed MGWR blue, a truly remarkable survivor. As you can see, the coach remains in extremely faded CIE green.

 

That particular sample is badly faded, however, and there is a tiny spot (possibly on the other coach?) where it can be seen a little better, along with nearby MGWR brown, and of course there are numerous spots on both where not only these colours, but GSR maroon and traces of lining may be seen.

 

If anyone's interested, PM me and the next time I'm in the north I'll try to organise a "guided tour" of the place for any modellers who want to come along or meet.

[Ian]

That blue must have looked spectacular on a full train when new. Managed to source Ernie Shepherds book at the library, plenty of great photos. Would still love to see more photos of Broadstone in MGWR days. Working on concepts and sketching away will post when time is right. Still battling the gauge question though. Keep saying to myself maybe it's worth getting the broad gauge look.

[Jawfin]

I imagine it would have looked pretty much the same as this:

 

http://www.steamindex.com/media/celtic.jpg

 

Speaking of MGWR blue, I was reading a book a while ago that said that MGWR blue/white on coaches was not only introduced for the Tourist Express to Clifden, but something called the Limited Mail as well?

[jhb171achill]

The blue was originally introduced specifically for the "Tourist train" but the stock used on this overlapped with the Limited Mail. In particular, the MGWR's one-time only dining car (No. 1!) took its part with both. So it made sense to paint extra stock in blue and white.

 

It looked extremely well, but the blue faded and the white got filthy, so it was very unpopular with staff and was rightly considered to be impractical. You might as well dress loco crew in white ballet dresses!

 

For just 2 or 3 years, most or all main line stock was painted blue and white, but apart from six wheelers specifically used on the Mail or Tourist trains, other six wheelers 9which made up the overwhelming majority of MGWR stock) remained brown with gold lining.

 

By 1915, they'd had enough of trying to keep the new livery clean and reverted to brown straight away. By this stage, I would estimate that barely 10% of the overall fleet was blue and white. After 1915, however, the "austerity" we all now know and love had kicked in, so the brown tended to be lined with pale yellow instead of gold.

 

In 1918, the MGWR abandoned brown finally, after having had it continually since the 1840s. A new livery of a very deep maroon was brought in, and all stock painted between then and 1925, when the GSR took over, was done in maroon. Lining was gold and lettering and coats of arms were in the same positions and styles on all three liveries. Given the size of the MGWR fleet, and the fact that money was tight, the brown livery ended up surviving on a great many vehicles until GSR times.

 

Regarding locomotives, most remained green throughout. The blue was only applied to some members of the classes allocated to the Tourist Train and other prime trains. The cigarette card version is incorrect, as cigarette cards frequently are. The blue should be much darker, and the lining was black and white, not what looks on the card like blue and gold; carriages in this livery were lined in gold.

Edited April 28, 2015 by jhb171achill

[brianmcs]

Hi guys ,

 

I remember seeing a painting of the blue and white limited mails train in the fry model museum . I wonder where is it now ? ( the painting and the Fry model)

[minister_for_hardship]

Most likely in storage with the rest of the collection.

[islandbridgejct]

Hi Ian,

On the gauge question, the P4 Society is pretty good for 21mm stuff, but a steep learning curve that I'm still trying to get up after 3 years of (admittedly fairly desultory) effort. I imagine the EM Gauge Society probably sells relevant parts too, and is easier to work in - Mayner could advise you on it. I feel the look of 21mm gauge is worth the effort - others say life is too short. Good luck, whichever you choose.

Alan

[David Holman]

7mm scale definitely worth considering. Ariana Town is just 3.6m long on the scenic section. Track not a problem, with C&L parts or copper clad. Alphagraphix catalogue contains several etched brass kits of the E class 0-6-0T and G2 2-4-0, plus etched brass and card kits of the 6 wheel coaches. Not difficult and VERY addictive!