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New 06.15hrs Cork to Dublin non-stop Express service begins Mon 25th May

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That IR logic is flawed , there is no doubt. Private operators in the UK see the value in sweating the assets. Even old locos have been refurbished and returned to service, when you have to lease your motive power , conpanies that provide cheaper alternatives using refurbished locos have a valuable place.

 

In Ireland the periodic bonanza of capital in the railways has meant that waste and poor planing is the order of the day. This is not entirely the fault of CIE group. It has nothing to gain by refusing capital.

There is no doubt that the rail car investment was not foreseen and the redirection of public money as a result of boom tubes led to on the hoof decisions.

 

In my view a railcar only fleet will cause

IR asset utilisation issues especially in passager numbers grow

The difficulty in reassembling different configurations to match traffic

Patterns amongst an increasingly stretched fleet , and the issues surrounding

Such reconfiguration process , will leave IR in a very very difficult position.

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city gold Irish rail watch video from 42mins 45 seconds the Dublin cork intercity 2hours 30mins with limited stops

Edited by Ben

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The 201 fleet is an absolute mess, due to being three different orders. 201-205 / 210-214 do not have push pull equipment fitted, different bearings on the bogies and other differences, compared to 215-226/229/232/234. 206/207/8208/8209/227/228/230 have NIR equipment and are thus restricted to those duties (the law in the North states that all stock must have AWS, TPWS, NIR Train Radio etc, or have a second competent person on board. I know which is cheaper day-to-day). Then you have the level of work required. As of today, there's 6 booked Class 201 diagrams. 5 Dublin-Cork and 1 Dublin-Belfast. Requirement of about 8 locos total, including time for A, B exams etc. Then freight. 3 flows (IWT, DFDS, Timber). Up to three IWT's a day, one timber and one DFDS - 6 locos. 14 out of 34 needed, based on just 201 usage. I make the current fleet to be 20 available for work (21 including 8208 under overhaul). Find the work first!

 

 

The 201s were from 2 different orders not 3. Ten were ordered first 201-205 and 210-214, the rest were ordered later to a different spec and the numbers were changed so that 206-209 were in this order and spec. This was because the first 10 locos have different draw gear and buffer design meaning they can't be equipped with or use auto or knuckle couplers and they wanted loco numbers 206-209 to be allocated to Enterprise duties for historic reasons.

 

With the EVN numbering system IE have now broken the class down into 3 sub classes. The 110s which are the 10 stored 201s, the 210s that are all the non NIR equipped push pull 201s and the 310s that are push pull capable and equipped for working the Enterprise.

Edited by Railer

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Well now I am just confused

 

This is what you're referring to, right?

 

1280px-IE_DVT_1.JPG

(Photo: Dawgs via Wikipedia. Creative Commons licence.)

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city gold Irish rail watch video from 42mins 45 seconds the Dublin cork intercity 2hours 30mins with limited stops

 

Yes indeed. Used that train regularly on work trips to Cork during the 90s. The first time I was on 'city gold' shortly after it was introduced in the late 80s, I was astonished at the quality service, comfort, ability to work on board, and overall travel experience (i.e. compared to the 70s and early 80s trains). It was the first time I'd been on an Irish train that matched up to the comfort of BR intercity service that I has used a lot for work. Pity its gone. Low cost airline business model now prevails, only difference is that in the air it got more people flying, but on intercity rail here that doesn't seem to have had the same level of effect.

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That IR logic is flawed , there is no doubt. Private operators in the UK see the value in sweating the assets. Even old locos have been refurbished and returned to service, when you have to lease your motive power , conpanies that provide cheaper alternatives using refurbished locos have a valuable place.

 

In Ireland the periodic bonanza of capital in the railways has meant that waste and poor planing is the order of the day. This is not entirely the fault of CIE group. It has nothing to gain by refusing capital.

There is no doubt that the rail car investment was not foreseen and the redirection of public money as a result of boom tubes led to on the hoof decisions.

 

In my view a railcar only fleet will cause

IR asset utilisation issues especially in passager numbers grow

The difficulty in reassembling different configurations to match traffic

Patterns amongst an increasingly stretched fleet , and the issues surrounding

Such reconfiguration process , will leave IR in a very very difficult position.

 

Not particularly true in the UK. EWS withdrew a couple of hundred locos that where not life expired (56s, 58s, 60s, 90s, 92s) and scrapped many of them or left them to rot in sidings while replacing them with 280 EMD locos. The reason why older locos are being refurbished by the likes of COLAS and DB is that the emission regs that have come into force mean that there is no current off the shelf design that will fit in the restrictive UK loading gauge design. GBRf are going around Europe looking for spare 710 engines to slap into 66s to get round this as much as possible. The 57 programme was partially successful, but have suffered reliability issues (look up the Cornish sleeper diagrams and you can see it's been littered with failures) and the leasing companies together with Freightliner saw that you could have a new 66 for not much more money. Freightliner quickly binned the 57s when production capacity for the 66s were freed up after the EWS order was completed.

 

The HSTS were remotored as a stop gap as the Government faffed around with the new generation Intercity design and tender award. If the plan had've been more advanced (leaser requirements, electrification requirements, tendering process, bio-mode faffing) then the brilliant but tired HST would already have been retired by now.

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This is what you're referring to, right?

 

1280px-IE_DVT_1.JPG

(Photo: Dawgs via Wikipedia. Creative Commons licence.)

Yep

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Yep

 

Control car/DVT... same thing. As has been said already, they're generator vans and don't provide tractive power. In theory, they could be fitted with an engine and traction motors in future and used in pairs.

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One must look at the whole airline industry not just a small section. Aer lingus is an example of the " adding curtains " success. Worldwide business class pays for airlines. It's why they go to extraordinary lengths to provide for them.

 

 

I think the " curtains" in my case is an analogy for comfort in general and tailoring to ones customers.

 

 

 

The life of mk3 is amply demonstrated by their continued use in the uk , even mi2s are in use worldwide to this day. Of course, the irish know better then everyone else. ( as we did when we bought the metrovicks !!)

 

The destruction of the mk 3 has all to do with " windfall" public money due to the government of the day ( greens ) which resulted in the wholesale change of strategy to railcars , dumping the 201 strategy so recently justified -funny that

 

Remember all financial decisions in cie have b toning to do with real ecomonics. It's dept of transport.

 

201s thirsty. , of course fuel costs are the issue at cie. !!! Funny they weren't obviously " thirsty " a few years previous when bought them.

Sounds like retrospective justification.

 

Noiser , damn noticeable to me. I want my train carriage quiet.

 

 

 

The ability to cater for greater and greater numbers of passengers packed into fewer and fewer carriages, makes sit down restaurant cars or dining at ones seat very very difficult to achieve. One can go down the elite route , but that's not popular in Ireland

 

 

 

The point is to allow car drivers to access intercity services. That isn't possible with city centre stations. It can take longer to get to Hueston then the whole journey by car. You can increase train speeds to Mach 10 and that does t do anything to journey times

 

The idea of trains terminating in a station with minuscule track configuration , pathing difficulties etc is questionable, it's not that the tunnel hasn't existed , it's more to do with ie accepting dart inter-connecter is doomed in any reasonable timescale.

 

 

 

You cannot beat cars in a small under populated country served by what is now an excellent under utilised motorway network. To try and compete is to chase the impossible.

 

What you can do is offer an " alternative " , like an aer lingus to Ryanair. Rather then speed, offer comfort, reliability , facilities.

Cars are what people want at present , trains are seem as a necessary evil. Most take them because they can't use their cars. That's not competition. Rail dominated canal traffic because it offered unrivalled speed , cars dominate railways because it offers unrevised convenience. Rail cannot recover that aspect , it's gone. But look at the success of passenger liners today , bigger and better then ever before, with levels of luxury never seen on the high seas. , but a different market and clientele. Intercity Rail must discover a new niche

 

Ps uk fares will be wrong when fewer passengers travel each year. .........waiting. Ie were reminded of its ridiculous fair structure in the strategic rail review 2013. It has failed to implement most of the recommendations . It has yet to implement variable rate fares to control excessive numbers at peak times

 

 

 

 

True , but of this was really the policy , we have 200, 000 passengers travelling Waterford to limerick within€ 5.99 fares and 5 trains a day each way.

 

Instead it's more of a subvention to prevent mass unemployment of rail workers , that happens to transport passengers occasionally

 

No rail line is profitable in Ireland, in the normal sense of that term. This is true in many countries.

 

I've looked up a couple of figures around business travel, and it appears to equate to somewhere between 10% and 20% of all air travel. So, 80%-90% tagging along for the trip? I think not. http://www.businesstravelnews.com/More-News/HRG---Indisputable--Business-Class-Decline-Among-U-K--Companies/?ida=Airlines&a=proc & http://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-airline-revenue-is-made-from-business-and-first-class-tickets. They pay more for premium seats of course but it's still a small percentage of their business and turnover.

 

The Mark IIIs in the UK have been extensively refurbished at least once in their lifetime. Only one diagram in the UK uses the Mark IIs today (DRS Curmbrian coast service) and the ones sold to the likes of New Zealand have been totally rebuilt, in some cases they're unrecognizable to their original design. IE decided to eliminate shunting movements and their expense and took advantage of a booming economy and capital available to replace them when they did. As an enthusiast I miss the stock, but if they held off back then, stuck with the Mark IIs and Mark IIIs and were to start replacing the stock now as it becomes life expired where would the capital investment come from? The country is broke, the public would see ancient stock and possibly be put off and operating costs would be higher. Rebuilds can cost almost 80% of newbuilds so I can understand IE's logic.

 

201s and fuel costs. EMD two strokes are known to be thirsty. However, fuel costs ten years ago were soaring and this obviously had a part in IE's decision.

 

Why would car drivers need to access rail services when you argue that the train is not a viable competitor to the car? Business travellers coming to Dublin will no doubt have expense accounts, I know I do. Companies will pay for taxi fares to anywhere in the city. If regular people are travelling from Dublin then the LUAS and bus make the journey handy enough, or a taxi if needs be similar to the airport (but not as out of the way for most Dubliners).

 

Cars make sense in Ireland, but smaller ones make sense in urban areas and they're making less and less sense in Dublin to the point where they're becoming anti-social. I can see a congestion charge situation coming in here in the next few years similar to London, where I thought it was excellent when I lived there as it kept traffic out of central London and easier for everyone to commute.

 

The UK is seeing a growth in passenger numbers as their public policy is pushing more people to use public transport and the car is not a viable proposition to commute to work. See London congestion charge. The growth is around big city commuter travel as cars offer high costs in parking (and trying to find it) or congestion charge. Any growth rurally is due to heavily subsidized fares from the UK government which to my mind defeats the purpose of a private railway. After all, the privately run railway in Britain cost much more to run than BR ever did.

 

I think it's unfair to say IE is run to prevent mass unemployment of their employees. Surely their wages and their infrastructure costs much more than any social welfare payments!!!

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Yep

 

I wonder if you had two DRIVING TRAILERS and a 201 in the centre of the train set would it work ?

I KNOW THE DINNER WOULD BE A BROBLEM

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Would it be worth it though? I mean a good bit of shunting involved and for what? i get what you are saying and maybe if you put a camera a the front of the dot to show up on a screen on the 201(a bit eccentric maybe) and it might work.another idea(but a costly one) to have 2 201s at the front and back. Could they make the Phoenix park tunnel any bigger? Maybe a Belfast Dublin cork route could be worked out as in the 50s with the enterprise. I get that it would take a long time for the train to make the whole journey.

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You still need a genny vehicle. HEP on the 201s is now isolated as it's not required anymore. So even with a 201 top and tail you still need a genny to power the train just like Belmond is doing.

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]19175[/ATTACH]

 

LOL

 

"Beam me up Scotty" comes to mind :)

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I wonder if you had two DRIVING TRAILERS and a 201 in the centre of the train set would it work ?

I KNOW THE DINNER WOULD BE A BROBLEM

 

Three non-passenger carrying vehicles in the consist? No point in that.

 

Would it be worth it though? I mean a good bit of shunting involved and for what? i get what you are saying and maybe if you put a camera a the front of the dot to show up on a screen on the 201(a bit eccentric maybe) and it might work.another idea(but a costly one) to have 2 201s at the front and back. Could they make the Phoenix park tunnel any bigger? Maybe a Belfast Dublin cork route could be worked out as in the 50s with the enterprise. I get that it would take a long time for the train to make the whole journey.

 

Shunting? Cameras? What!?!? :facepalm::facepalm:

 

This thread is now not just off-topic, but also utterly bizarre.

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Three non-passenger carrying vehicles in the consist? No point in that.

.

 

Not for every day operations sure, but it will soon be a reality with the Belmond service when it launches. Top and tail 201s with an EGV. Can't wait for it.

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Not for every day operations sure, but it will soon be a reality with the Belmond service when it launches. Top and tail 201s with an EGV. Can't wait for it.

 

Different kettle of fish, in fairness... a single 201 in the centre of a rake of Mk4s with a DVT at either end makes no sense.

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city gold Irish rail watch video from 42mins 45 seconds the Dublin cork intercity 2hours 30mins with limited stops

Sorry to go off topic but were the Mk3 1st class coaching stock built in the 80's or had they received an overhaul prior to this video or were they built after the standards? The LED passenger information display, reclining seats, adjustable tables and the numerous amount of lights in first class makes me think it was nearly ahead of its time then. The 26's have no LED passenger information display even today! Yet the 1st class had these LED screens installed back then, and even functioning too!

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Could 2 201s pull a large train (eg. 14 -18 coaches for some reason) with a gent behind or the new non stop express or would it be unnecessary? Also how long would the new express rake be?

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Could 2 201s pull a large train (eg. 14 -18 coaches for some reason) with a gent behind or the new non stop express or would it be unnecessary? Also how long would the new express rake be?

Platform lengths restrict the train length for passenger services.

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What's the max amount of coaches?

 

It depends upon where the train will be stopping, not all platforms are the same length.

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Maximum Pasenger Train Size must not exceed:

 

  • 10 MKIV vehicles
  • 8 De-Dietrich Push/Pull vehicles
  • 8 8100/8200/8500/510/8520 Class EMU's
  • 9 ICR (22000) Class DMU's
  • 8 2600 Clas DMU's
  • 10 2700 Class DMU's
  • 10 2800 Class DMU's
  • 8 29000 Class DMU's

 

All DMU/EMU size refers to number of vehicles, not number of sets (ie 2x4 Class 29000 rather than 8x4 Class 29000)

 

Maximum Passenger Train Load mus not exceed 430 tonnes.

 

12 ICR permitted between Laois Traincare Depot and Heuston only

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I've looked up a couple of figures around business travel, and it appears to equate to somewhere between 10% and 20% of all air travel. So, 80%-90% tagging along for the trip? I think not. http://www.businesstravelnews.com/More-News/HRG---Indisputable--Business-Class-Decline-Among-U-K--Companies/?ida=Airlines&a=proc & http://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-airline-revenue-is-made-from-business-and-first-class-tickets. They pay more for premium seats of course but it's still a small percentage of their business and turnover.

 

 

The Mark IIIs in the UK have been extensively refurbished at least once in their lifetime. Only one diagram in the UK uses the Mark IIs today (DRS Curmbrian coast service) and the ones sold to the likes of New Zealand have been totally rebuilt, in some cases they're unrecognizable to their original design. IE decided to eliminate shunting movements and their expense and took advantage of a booming economy and capital available to replace them when they did. As an enthusiast I miss the stock, but if they held off back then, stuck with the Mark IIs and Mark IIIs and were to start replacing the stock now as it becomes life expired where would the capital investment come from? The country is broke, the public would see ancient stock and possibly be put off and operating costs would be higher. Rebuilds can cost almost 80% of newbuilds so I can understand IE's logic.

 

201s and fuel costs. EMD two strokes are known to be thirsty. However, fuel costs ten years ago were soaring and this obviously had a part in IE's decision.

 

Why would car drivers need to access rail services when you argue that the train is not a viable competitor to the car? Business travellers coming to Dublin will no doubt have expense accounts, I know I do. Companies will pay for taxi fares to anywhere in the city. If regular people are travelling from Dublin then the LUAS and bus make the journey handy enough, or a taxi if needs be similar to the airport (but not as out of the way for most Dubliners).

 

Cars make sense in Ireland, but smaller ones make sense in urban areas and they're making less and less sense in Dublin to the point where they're becoming anti-social. I can see a congestion charge situation coming in here in the next few years similar to London, where I thought it was excellent when I lived there as it kept traffic out of central London and easier for everyone to commute.

 

The UK is seeing a growth in passenger numbers as their public policy is pushing more people to use public transport and the car is not a viable proposition to commute to work. See London congestion charge. The growth is around big city commuter travel as cars offer high costs in parking (and trying to find it) or congestion charge. Any growth rurally is due to heavily subsidized fares from the UK government which to my mind defeats the purpose of a private railway. After all, the privately run railway in Britain cost much more to run than BR ever did.

 

I think it's unfair to say IE is run to prevent mass unemployment of their employees. Surely their wages and their infrastructure costs much more than any social welfare payments!!!

 

 

Lets agree to disagree but i leave this snippet

 

A business class seat takes 3 times more space than an economy seat but bring 5-10 times the revenue.

In some particularly competitive long haul routes (e.g. Transatlantic), economy passengers barely pay for the fuel; without the business class every airline would lose a lot of money and not fly the route.

 

Example LON-NYC: 5500 km; 5kg fuel burnt per passenger per 100km 1$ per kg of fuel => $275*2 for a round trip + 300$ tax= $800!! Only for fuel and taxes. Not sure everybody pays that.

 

Next time you board a long haul flight, you can thank the premium cabin passengers as you walk through the aisle. They are paying for your food, drinks, service and more importantly, maintenance, pilots and for the airplane itself.

 

Your comments re mk3 is pure hindsight. Unless IR knew more then anyone else on the planet in 2000-2005

 

This country is far far from broke , it remains i beleive the 14 -16 wealthiest country in the world. It was and still is however very badly managed

 

Any way on to more interesting topics

Edited by Junctionmad

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Lets agree to disagree but i leave this snippet

 

 

 

Your comments re mk3 is pure hindsight. Unless IR knew more then anyone else on the planet in 2000-2005

 

This country is far far from broke , it remains i beleive the 14 -16 wealthiest country in the world. It was and still is however very badly managed

 

Any way on to more interesting topics

 

Absolutely not hindsight, it's called 'forward planning'. In 2005 the Mark IIs were over 30 years old, corrosion was a major issue and they needed replacing. The Mark IIIs were due an overhaul. Investment was available. Do you refurb 20 year old coaches (which also traditionally had corrosion issues) and continue with shunting arrangements for another 10-15 years lifespan and a large expense, or do you buy new trains for a 30 year lifespan while you have the funding from the government available? That's not 'pure hindsight', it's a business decision.

 

Anyway, as you say. Onwards and upwards.

Edited by Warbonnet

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I've looked up a couple of figures around business travel, and it appears to equate to somewhere between 10% and 20% of all air travel. So, 80%-90% tagging along for the trip? I think not. http://www.businesstravelnews.com/More-News/HRG---Indisputable--Business-Class-Decline-Among-U-K--Companies/?ida=Airlines&a=proc & http://www.quora.com/What-percentage-of-airline-revenue-is-made-from-business-and-first-class-tickets. They pay more for premium seats of course but it's still a small percentage of their business and turnover.

 

 

Business travellers coming to Dublin will no doubt have expense accounts, I know I do. Companies will pay for taxi fares to anywhere in the city. If regular people are travelling from Dublin then the LUAS and bus make the journey handy enough, or a taxi if needs be similar to the airport (but not as out of the way for most Dubliners).

 

Cars make sense in Ireland, but smaller ones make sense in urban areas and they're making less and less sense in Dublin to the point where they're becoming anti-social. I can see a congestion charge situation coming in here in the next few years similar to London, where I thought it was excellent when I lived there as it kept traffic out of central London and easier for everyone to commute.

 

The UK is seeing a growth in passenger numbers as their public policy is pushing more people to use public transport and the car is not a viable proposition to commute to work. See London congestion charge. The growth is around big city commuter travel as cars offer high costs in parking (and trying to find it) or congestion charge. Any growth rurally is due to heavily subsidized fares from the UK government which to my mind defeats the purpose of a private railway. After all, the privately run railway in Britain cost much more to run than BR ever did.

 

I think it's unfair to say IE is run to prevent mass unemployment of their employees. Surely their wages and their infrastructure costs much more than any social welfare payments!!!

 

Not sure if Business Class in Ireland and the UK is more a hangover from the old British class system than anything else, I work for a government body and use air travel regularly in connection with my work, New Zealand Government policy even for senior management is to book the cheapest available flight and use economy class.

 

The main benefit of Business Class for domestic air travel is the ability to access the Business lounge at major airports rather than the inflight service.

We are finally starting to catch up with Ireland and the UK after some 10-15 years starting to use teleconferencing for meetings and training sessions rather than spending a large part of our budget on travel and accommodation.

 

Public transport is not really a viable option for business travellers getting to and from an airport or railway station, larger organisations have accounts and agreed rates with taxi companies rather than using individual expense accounts.

 

Comparison with conditions in the UK is difficult, I don’t think Ireland has the critical mass in terms of population density (overcrowding?), distance and heavy industry to support a main line railway system without a disproptortionately higher level of public subsidy for every passenger carried or tonne/km carried in comparison to countries like the UK. In recent years IE has gone from one of the lowest to highest levels of subsidy per passenger km.

 

While CIE/IE managed to consistently grow intercity passenger traffic at a single digit rate through the 70-90s, the intercity railway became less relevant in the big scheme of things as despite massive investment and booming passenger figures up to the GFC rail continued to lose market share to the private car.

 

Surface travel is not a serious option to air in countries with a low population density spread out over a large area. I once used the Overlander to get home on a Saturday from a course in Wellington, unfortunately the most interesting 200 km of the journey was by road as a freight de-railed and blocked the line during the early hours of Saturday morning.

 

The survival of IE/CIE and the Irish Railway system seems to be a throwback to the protectionist era of the 1930-60 when existing businesses and jobs had to be protected regardless of the cost in terms of damage to the economy and emigration. This mindset supported a resistance to change at both governance and shop floor level that lead to a focus on industrial relations problems as the railways become less and less relevant.

Edited by Mayner

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Mayner's points there are spot on. Whether we like it or not - and, doubtless, none of us do - while the abandonment of the railway in its entirety in the morning would certainly cause difficulties, these would be nowhere near as much as they would have been seventy years ago, when such a thing would have paralysed the country entirely.

 

Politicians, the travelling public, and railway staff and their unions, as well as railway management, would all do well to be aware of that.

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