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Glover

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I started this thread with some notes on a GSR non-corridor coach, based on the old Hornby GWR clearstory coach. I have now added two coaches to what I see as an excursion/GAA special on the Bundoran branch. This is a form of 'back to the future' modelling. In the very late 1960s/early '70s, CIE assembled a set of old wooden bodied, non-corridor stock to run on the suburban services to Bray, usually hauled by an A class diesel loco. The train was a great favourite of the photographer Michael Baker who featured it in a number of his books.

The basis is the Ratio GWR 4 wheel coaches. I had a number of body panels left over from the previously featured GSWR/GSR 6 wheel guards/luggage van. The ends were widened and the height of the sides increased in order to achieve that 'bigger' look of Irish coaches . I have numbered it 1895, to replicate the series of brake/3rds built in 1927 with the shorter guards section.

 

Cheers,

 

Glover

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Hi Glover

Have you seen Provincial Wagons now do a pretty good Cattle Wagon kit? its not the same satisfaction as kit-bashing to achieve a goal, but if your thinking of a train of them this might be a quicker starting point....

Eoin

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At the other end of my non-corridor excursion set is a GSR brake/composite, based on the old faithful Hornby GWR coach. This project uses a mixture of the Hornby brake/3rd and the all passenger coach. This achieves the mix of compartment widths.

I filed off the lower body panelling in order to replicate the plainer, compared to the GWR, appearance of GSR coaches. As before, the sides were increased in height.  The ends, widened slightly, are from the Ratio GWR coaches which were going spare from the previous conversion. Note that the guards look out is at the very end of the coach, as per GSR practice. I made the roof years ago, from plastic, using the oft recommended method of curving under heat. Can't say it was a great success but I kept it in my scrap box. It's hour has come. I can justify the somewhat wonky appearance on the basis that the coaches were old, although not perhaps as old as you might think....

In 1931, the GSR built two brake/composites specifically for the Harcourt Street line. They were the only brake/compose built by the GSR. Because my coach is slightly different to the prototypes ( the Hornby compartments are somewhat wider than the rather cramped GSR ones: anyone fancy sitting in a 5'6" third class compartment with eleven other commuters? Even at rush hour, you would be more comfortable on the LUAS!). Anyway, I have numbered mine as 2493, assuming that the GSR built another couple of brake/compose to a slightly different configuration.

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15 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi Glover

Have you seen Provincial Wagons now do a pretty good Cattle Wagon kit? its not the same satisfaction as kit-bashing to achieve a goal, but if your thinking of a train of them this might be a quicker starting point....

Eoin

Is that the GNR cattle wagon Eoin?

I have built two of those plus an ancient white metal kit but I really need the CIE van; GNR wagons had a short life expectancy under CIE!

 

Many thanks,

 

Glover

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Hi Glover

It's this one....

59ede8615a2d0_CW-01IMAG3401.jpg.740325846b788890b14d1f848009629d.jpg

.....I'm told by one of the chaps involved that they were the same down south

Eoin

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Thanks Eoin; got 'em!

I've built two from Leslie's kits; the one on the left is a very old Model Wagon Company white metal kit; weights a ton!

However, my layout, Pettigo on the GNR's  Bundoran branch, is set in 1963 (assuming it remained open until then) and photographic evidence from that period suggests that virtually all the GNR vans which CIE inherited on the break up of the GNR had gone by then.

Again, many thanks.

Glover

 

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My excursion set is completed by two further coaches, both built a good many years ago.

This is a Ratio Midland Railway all third. I remember buying the kit in the old and wonderful model shop in Phibsboro. I bought metal buffers from that treasure throve display on the counter. The original Ratio bogies gave up the ghost many years ago and were replaced by Bachman LMS bogies.

It's really too short: it should be a 60 footer. It would be relatively straight forward to build to the correct length using two of the Ratio kits ( buy three kits and you should get two coaches) but it's not on my priority list at the moment.

Glover

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The final coach in the excursion set is an Ian Kirk LNER kit, intended to represent some sort of GNR presence in the train.

The kit was bought in the now gone Kings Cross model shop in London. I used to fly to London on business quite a lot in days gone by and often used the original Ryanair service from Dublin into Luton, on the BAC 1-11s. The journey involved a bus from Luton airport to the railway station and then train into a then somewhat shabby St Pancras. I always tried to create a spare 10/15 minutes at the end of the day, to go into the model shop across the road from Kings Cross station and therefore very close to St Pancras.

The kit was built as intended. You will note the very prototypical broken window......no idea how that happened and the roof is glued in place!

Glover

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Looks fantastic! Until 1974 or so, a few old wooden relics could still be seen rattling around on summer excursion days on the DSER / GN section round Dublin, and in Cork.

As an aside, I think that the very last stock in service still in green would have been about 1966/7 at the latest.

There was one GNR coach still brown in 1966; it became black'n'tan straight away, never having been green. This was former brake second open No. 114, now at Whitehead. It was the last coach in GNR livery in traffic.

 

I love this layout - it's so full of atmosphere.

 

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A little while ago, I decided that I needed to formulate a plan for coach building. To that end, I identified a need for six brake/passenger coaches:

- 2X CIE for the Up and Down Bundoran Expresses

- 2X UTA ( my model of Pettigo, Co Donegal assumes that the Bundoran branch, and the old Irish North Western, lasted until the summer of 1963 and that the practice of adding a coach, at Clones, which had come down from Belfast via Portadown and Armagh) continued.

- 1X CIE for the branch train

- 1X UTA for a local to Enniskillen.

So, six in total.

Current stock is four.

In the photos below are two in CIE livery, the green one being the old Airfix LMS coach ( nice moulding but not really suitable) while the coach in black 'n tan is a very old Hornby Dublo model. I remember buying this in Helys on Dame Street in the early 1960s. Helys were stationaries and office suppliers but also had a toy department. I noticed recently that the Mercantile pub, who now occupy the ground floor, have opened a branch-bar next door, named Helys. When I mentioned this recently to a fellow Dub, he understood the reference immediately !

The UTA coaches are an old Graham Farish non-corridor coach which I bought from Colum Flanagan some time ago while the other is the Bachmann LMS wood panelled coach. The latter could be accepted, as the GNR did buy some old coaches from the LMS but the Graham Farish coach would probably be more suited to an NCC based layout.

Anyway, net result is 6 required but only one to hand which might be suitable.

More to come.....

Glover

 

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Given that my layout, Pettigo, is set in GNR territory, I felt that ex-GNR coaches should feature heavily . This is more or less a given with the UTA coaches but the CIE trains were more likely to be a mix of Northern and CIE types.

Many years ago, the guy working in the model shop in the Grafton Street arcade ( which was I believe the successor to the old Southern Models shop in a basement on Leeson St and which I think evolved over time to become the Marks Models of today), mentioned that the old Triangle/Hornby LNER Thompson coaches would make a fair representation of GNR coaches, given that they were issued in a wood grain livery.

It was not an idea which appealed to me at the time and I certainly had doubts about the oval toilet windows.

However, time passes.....

For our younger readers, here is where we start.

Glover

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I am eternally grateful to those photographers in times past who paid as much attention to what came behind the engine and took careful notes. We should also thank the modern day publishers. In the case of the late Norman Johnson, they were in effect one and the same; Norman set up Colourpoint books, who have given us a range of books on Irish railways.

In Normans' posthumous title, "Parting Shot", he published three photos of a GNR J11 tricompo, in service with the UTA in 1970.

The GNR built three of these coaches in the late 1930s, primarily for service on the Derry Road. Incidently, lest anyone think I am some sort of walking expert on these matters, I have to point out that all me learnin' comes from books.

The coaches were essentially in three parts: the guards'/luggage van, compartments, with a WC, for 1st and 2nd class and an open section for 3rd class. As I looked at the photos, it occurred to me that the third class open section was essentially a partial K15 coach. The K15 was the standard GNR coach; they built about 35 of them. And, I had a drawing of a K15, plus the information gleaned, I think, from Denis Coakham's book on Irish carriages that the van section was ten foot in length. Take these two basic bits of information plus the knowledge that the coaches were built to the standard GNR length of fifty eight feet, then I felt that I had a sporting chance of producing something from the Hornby coaches which might bear some resemblance to the originals. I was not being over ambitious !

Glover

I'm writing this in sections (or dragging it out if you prefer!) simply to allow me to keep score.

First thing I did was construct a jig for the body sides; just like those lads in Model Railway Journal! Mine was made from cardboard rather than some rare metal. It is necessary; there is a LOT of cutting and shutting involved in this project.

Next comes the carnage......

Glover

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I reckon there were about 14 major ( and more minor) cuts and rejoins required for each side.

The major challenge is creating those small windows either side of the doors in the 3rd class section; painful. In fact actual blood was spilled; I should have taken a photo of that moment but it's hard to think of that when you're bleeding to death from a scalpel cut! Also meant that I had to add 'wipe blood from body side' to my own notes.

For those of a strong constitution, here are some shots from the front line.

Glover.

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Very impressive, neat, tidy, and precise work. :tumbsup:  Looking forward to following this.

I remember those Triang LNER coaches from the 70s. A friend had a set.

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Thanks Noel.

I had to take a break there, to help get the bit of tea ready.

After all of the cutting, making the ends, the under frame ( the bogies are Bachmann LMS) , the interior etc,etc , I finally ended up with this.......

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Now, before JHB jumps up and down, I do know that the yellow stripe should be a more beige type colour but I offer two excuses:

1. I have a few other UTA coaches, so for consistency I have stuck with yellow.

2. Colour photos from the UTA era 'appear' to show the stripe as being yellow. That may very well be a reflection of the quality of colour photography of that time.

i have numbered it as 259. The correct number should be 258 but I simply didn't have the correct numeral. Can anyone recommend a source for UTA coach numerals?

I have to say that I find the UTA green livery rather dull ( no offence to fans of the UTA.......) in 4mm scale. As a Dubliner, my exposure to the UTA was rather limited and I accept that it may have been more impressive in reality.

You might ask if it would not have been better to make the damm thing from scratch . It's a moot point but using the Hornby sides does avoid having to make windows with sliding vents.

Anyway, I now have a GNR J11 tricompo to run in one of the Bundoran Express's and an awful lot of spare parts......

Glover

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Thank you David for your kind comment.

I did mention that I had a lot of spare parts left over from the UTA model......

Now, the GNR built 3 of these coaches. On the break up of the GNR, one went to the UTA while the others went to CIE. Both lasted to about 1970.

It might be the sign of advancing madness but I deciðed to build another one.

One improvement I made over the UTA coach was to build up the lower part of the door windows while extending the top, which does I think help to give it a more GNR appearance: see photo.

Glover

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I have painted the coach in CIE green on one side and black & tan on the other. Given that the layout is set in 1963, this I think is reasonable.

I have also given it a different number on each side and attempted to replicate the CIE practice of placing a small 'c' in front of the original GNR number; CIE did not renumber GNR stock.

I have now started work on a CIE brake/standard but don't wait up: it will be some time before the dust settles on that project.

Glover

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And, as a good night from me, here are the two sisters together. 

 

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I like the idea of different liveries on different sides - was considering myself.

The GNR out a small "c" in front of numbers of coaches, with a small "n" afterwards. Therefore, a GNR coach numbered 145 would be c145N.  I suspect it was meant to be a "G" but due to the design of the font they ended up like a "c".

Ex GNR wagons had an N added only, thus wagon 94 became 94N.

Locos weren't renumbered at all - most would shortly be scrapped. 

While ex GNR coaches were repainted in the post-1955 lighter CIE green (none were ever the darker shade, as that went out in the mid 50s before the GNR wound up),  and ex GNR wagons got CIE "snails" on them (GNR and CIE grey were about the same),  no ex GNR steam loco was ever given the grey paint treatment. The very very few repainted at all were outshopped in whatever GNR livery they had already had, either plain or lined black or lined blue - but without "G N" markings or GNR crest. Numbers were applied using standard GNR types of shaded letter transfers, not CIE style lettering.

We know that the UTA  lined black actually suited GNR locos well; how would unlined battleship grey and a flying snail have looked on 85?

.....oh and yes.... straw, edged in red, for UTA lining as you say. Any photo apparently showing otherwise hasn't got accurate colour rendition. Numerals straw too.

I think the RPSI Whitehead livery may have confused the issue for some modellers. It was intended to look similar to, but not Ben exactly, UTA livery. The RPSI uses a single red and a single yellow waist line, with yellow numerals shaded red, but it's a different livery, the Society's own. Yours truly had a hand in designing it, so blame me if it has led anyone to think the UTA used yellow!

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The third of the planned five or six brake/passenger coaches for service through Pettigo on the Bundoran branch is now finished.

It represents one of the brake/standard's built at Inchicore in 1953 and numbered 1904-1908.

The old Hornby LMS Stanier coach has been used by many modellers to represent earlier CIE coaches but, in my view, it needs to be lengthened to the CIE standard 61'6", widened and with a different roof profile. In short, only the sides of the original Hornby model are actually used, everything else being scratch built. The body profile is a fair match for these earlier CIE coaches which were almost vericle in profile with just a lower turn under. 

I know that Mayner offered these as part of his JM Designs range but I think these were intended to fit a Dapol coach and were thus a little short in length and perhaps not quite as tall as the prototype's. In order to add some height to the sides, I filed off the representation of the gutters on the Hornby model and thus increased the space between the window tops and the point where the roof joins.

Anyway, hear is a snap to get us going; I'll follow up with some specific notes which may be of help to others.

Cheers,

Glover

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This conversion requires two Hornby coaches; I used a composite and a brake/third. I also cut Windows into the guards van doors.

The attached photo shows the basic cuts required. As with the previous GNR coaches, I constructed a basic jig, from cardboard, in order to ensure both sides were the same length.

Glover

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I did write a further note but it appears to have gone up in smoke!

Just in case it reappears, this note talks about two features at the ends of the coach: buffers and corridor connectors.

The latter are made as per Geoff Kents article in the Model Railway Journal issue number 228. Essentially strips of black paper formed into a corrugated pattern are sandwiched between two shaped pieces of plastic. I used Indian Ink to colour the paper. They are somewhat fiddly to make but in truth are easier than the more usual method of interlocked card.

The buffers are a bit of a cheat. They are BR heavy duty wagon buffers (from MJT) with paper buffer faces, cut out using a normal office paper punch. To my eyes, CIE coach buffers were characterised by a fat body and a large head (apologies to those who might fit that description!) but I'm not aware of any similar buffers available on the UK or Irish market.

Glover

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No sign of the missing post, so here goes, again.

A characteristic feature of these earlier CIE coaches was the rivets joining the metal panels on the side. I have represented these using tiny slivers of corrugated plastic (bought years ago, no idea where). 

I also formed window frames using thin Evergreen strips, #110 , representing the rivets by rolling a small screwdriver with a serrated handle over the plastic. Same technique used to form the prominent roof strapping.

Together with SE Finecast flush glazing ( and painting the window reveals brown), I think these changes really do transform the old Hornby moulding.

Glover

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The interior is scratch built but it does raise a question which someone may be able to answer: was there a side corridor running past the luggage/guards section? I have a vague memory of such, from the days when we would walk from one end of the train to the other, to count the number of coaches. I also remember those odd compartment coaches, built in the early/mid 1950s ,which had the toilets in the centre of the coach with the side corridor running on opposite sides from the toilets to the end of the coach ( I know what I mean anyway.....).

i have modelled it as shown below. Note that the seats are finished in a sort of maroon colour. An Irish Railfans News from the early 1960s said that maroon upholstery  was the CIE standard colour for second/standard class and green for 1st class. This info was culled from the time when the RPSI had a full set of this journal on its website; hopefully this will be restored sometime.

Glover

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One further question relates to the toilet window. I think there may have been three versions of this, at different times.

One as modelled ( a solid pane of whitened glass). Another , just visible in the corner of one photo I've seen, shows an opening pane at the top while a third variant was a metal panel with just a sliding vent window at the top.

Anyone sitting on a lifetimes research on CIE toilet windows that they would like to share with us.........

While talking about windows generally, I should point out one mistake I made. The SE Finecast replacement flush glazing have the sliding top lights embossed. I painted these black, without thinking, but they should of course be the same colour as the body.

While in confessional mode, I have to admit that the roof is not a success. I followed Geoff Kents method in MRJ #228 but it has not come out anything like the real thing. I might give it another go: there is a guy over on RMweb (trading under the name Gobbler) who is building them almost as per the prototype ie 'planks' of plastic running the full length of the coach. We'll see.

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It's been a while......

Anyways, I keep a quarterly record of work I have done but Q2 (April-June) was a very lean period due to a lot of travelling and the snow in March (remember that?).

In order to get something on the record, I did a quick wagon project at the end of June.

Really, two things came together: seeing a photo on a Flickr website put up by a Brian Flannigan ("Irish Rolling Stock") which features a range of, mostly, wagons. The photos appear to have been taken in the early 1970s. One shows a covered van, number  16586. Two things interested me. One, the planks on the sides and ends are horizontal ( doors are planked vertically), which I suspect is quite unusual. Furthermore, the van appears to be in good condition and is painted in the then fairly new brown livery. It would seem that the van was still considered serviceable and worth keeping in traffic.

It follows that it must also have been in service in 1963, the year in which my model of Pettigo, on the GNR Bundoran branch is set, although I think we can be certain that it was grey in that period.

So, that's the prototype bit. 

In my spares/scrap/don't throw it out box, I had the body of an old Hornby-Dublo GW insulated meat van. It was originally white but I painted it green, maybe 40 years ago or more. In the 1960s, CIE painted a number of H vans green to run with AEC railcars, on routes such as Dublin to Wexford/Rosslare. 

The planking on the Hornby-Dublo vans was horizontal. Therefore, combined with some spare Parkside van doors plus scratch built ends and mounted on an Airfix chassis, I was able to reproduce a rather unusual CIE van.

I actually have a very old notebook, which records the seed and breed of the rolling stock I had as a youngster. The original was bought for me by my parents in Helys on Dame Street, Dublin, for the princely sum of 5/3......that's five shillings and three pence. Ask your grandparents........

Some  might consider this vandalism ( destroying an old Hornby-Dublo model) rather than modelling but I like to think of it as recycling.

Glover

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On 2/15/2018 at 4:32 PM, Glover said:

Given that my layout, Pettigo, is set in GNR territory, I felt that ex-GNR coaches should feature heavily . This is more or less a given with the UTA coaches but the CIE trains were more likely to be a mix of Northern and CIE types.

Many years ago, the guy working in the model shop in the Grafton Street arcade ( which was I believe the successor to the old Southern Models shop in a basement on Leeson St and which I think evolved over time to become the Marks Models of today), mentioned that the old Triangle/Hornby LNER Thompson coaches would make a fair representation of GNR coaches, given that they were issued in a wood grain livery.

It was not an idea which appealed to me at the time and I certainly had doubts about the oval toilet windows.

However, time passes.....

For our younger readers, here is where we start.

Glover

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In truth, these distinctive coaches are no equivalent to GNR (I) stock.....

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If Quarter 2, 2018 was a period of low productivity, then Q3 was, by my standards, positively 'foot to the floor'.

However, it didn't turn out quite the way I had planned. The objective was to build another brake/passenger to serve as a through UTA coach from Belfast, to be attached to the Bundoran Express at Clones. Remember that I am modelling Pettigo on the Bundoran branch as though it, and other relevant lines, had stayed open until 1963 as a joint CIE/UTA operation.

i had in mind one of those more modern (1930s onwards) GNR coaches with the recessed sliding van door. However, the choice appears to be quite limited as many were converted to run with the BUT railcars, which had no guard/luggage accommodation . Looking through the Worsley Works listing, I decided that a J4 brake/trio (3 classes) was appropriate. There are a number of photos of these coaches in service on the old Irish North West lines. On contacting Allan Doherty to order one, he told me that it was not currently available and might not be for the foreseeable future. He did however offer me a L9 brake/3rd, at a discounted price.

I did some research and noted that the L9s were characterised by a very large luggage area, which didn't seem appropriate for a single through coach. I did a bit more thinking and decided that I would bump another project up the list: a representation of the 1.35 PM local from Pettigo to Enniskillen, which followed the Up Bundoran Express but served all stations to Enniskillen, all of them bring in Northern Ireland. My thinking is that this would be a UTA service. All photos show this as a two coach train. So, another look at the Worsley Works website suggested that a K8 third would be a suitable companion.

So, back to Allan who agreed to sell me both the L9 and K8 at a discounted price.

And this is where we start.....

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Note that both coaches represent wooded bodies vehicles with panel long on the sides and match board ends. 

The K8s were built between 1915 and 1928 with the last one being withdrawn by the UTA ( or Northern Ireland Railways as it was then) in 1969. The UTA inherited 6 of them on the break up of the GNR. I don't know how many CIE had but given that the rolling stock was divided 50:50 between CIE and the UTA, it's quite possible that CIE took a similar number into their stock. They appear to have had a fairly short life in CIE ownership whereas the UTA kept such old stock in service for many years, particularly for summer excursions . 

The UTA inherited two of the L9 brake/thirds, which were possibly among the last wooden bodied coaches to be built at Dundalk. One was built in 1928 (withdrawn March 1969) while the other was constructed in 1932 and withdrawn in June 1971. I must credit Steve Rafferty who wrote a very well research article ("The 1958 UTA rolling stock renumbering scheme") in the November 2016 issue of New Irish Lines .

Glover

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Now, I am not 'metal man'; plastic is very much my material of choice. I have built two other Worsley Works coach kits but, and I know this will disappoint/outrage some but I glue them together.........There're still holding together.

In simple terms, I superglue strips of plastic to the metal at joints and thus the joints are essentially plastic to plastic, using the usual plastic glues.

Forming the tumblehome, or turnunder if you prefer, in brass proved not too difficult: just keep comparing it to the ends.

While working on these, I read an article in an old copy of the Model Railway Journal where the writer notes that brass sides were ideal for more modern flush sided coaches but on older vehicles, the glazing should be set back to reflect the thicker sides of wooden bodied coaches . Therefore, I glued plastic strips around the windows to achieve this effect.

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One significant change I made was to use a plastic floor/chassis rather than the brass one in the kit of parts. In previous builds, I used it but in my view, you end up with a coach which is too heavy. Besides, plastic makes it easier to attach the various bits and bobs to the chassis. I aim for an impression of 'things' underneath. Note that the under frame trusses are the old fashioned wire or metal bars rather than the later angle iron. I used paper clips to represent these; real 1960s Railway Modeller work!

The interiors are scratch built ; surely the most tedious part of coach modelling. Cutting up mountains of plastic to represent seat backs, cushions etc is enough to drive anyone mad. I did eventually build a crude cardboard jig, which helped with the assembly phase.

 

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I had thought originally that I would build the two coaches as consecutive projects but then decided that there might be some efficiencies in build them together, especially at the finishing and painting stage. By and large, that proved to be true.

Anyway, here are the pair, in UTA green. I have applied the post 1959 UTA logo or armorial device as I believe it was called. I have to say that as a company logo, it is singularly unimpressive. A Chairman's decision? I do hope I haven't offended the UTA fan(s)!

They should be mounted on Fox bogies, 8 foot wheelbase I think. The nearest equivalents I could find were in the Dart Castings/MJT range but when I added up the cost of all the various elements (basic bogie structure, cosmetic side frames, coupling attachment etc), the cost was heading for more than the basic coach kits cost. Therefore, I have used the ever reliable Bachmann LMS bogies. The roofs are painted to represent something between black and very light grey; colour photos of UTA trains show a remarkable variety of roof colours.

I mentioned previously that I often paint my coaches in a different livery on each side. Given that 1963 was a transition period, especially on CIE, I think that's a reasonable approach.

This is the UTA green side; more maybe tomorrow..........

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