Jump to content
TonyMcGartland

Omagh Goods Yard

Recommended Posts

After many months of thought I've finally placed an order on a 10'x6' garden shed from a very reputable builder who specialises in quality sheds using good quality materials and techniques. This will take 6-8 weeks for delivery and installation. I'll be then adding my own 'touch' to it with insulated flooring and side walls before I make it ready for what is hoped to be my modelling aim, creating the Goods Yard at Omagh. Theres a definite plan of work ahead and a lot of scratch built stock to work on so hopefully many winters evenings will be passed there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's an absolute scandal that not one atom of that still exists - or has done, thanks to Stormont, for half a century.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It's an absolute scandal that not one atom of that still exists - or has done, thanks to Stormont, for half a century.

 

I photographed the building extensively in 1987 when it was the property of the local district council and still have this 6x6 negs. The rear arches have been restored and incorporated into the new Station Centre, which is a youth club. The large retaining wall to the left and buildings above are still intact.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I love it even more. :D

 

Paul

 

Is anyone modelling 21mm at the moment. When you consider the trouble we go to to scratch build and source decent wagon drawings its a shame that they are run on 00 gauge track - it looks so 'narrow gauge' when compared to 21mm. If you look closely at the loco in the photo, it is broad!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't agree more, Tony. However, for those more interested in operation than visual aesthetics, I also appreciate why many folk stick to 00.

All depends on what the person wants from the hobby. I mainly like building stuff, so having the gauge right is important to me and is a key 'signature' element of modeling the Irish scene.

Am sure others have different priorities and good luck to them, it is this diversity which mades our hobby so appealing to so many different people.

What I will say is that it would be good to see more folk exploring 21mm gauge (and indeed broad gauge in other scales). Fine scale standards do not require P4/S7 wheels and track...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David, I'm with you on that. I plan on laying some test track on a short metre length tester with one point and siding to check my wagons. I see no point in investing in wagon drawing books and photographs to build them on 00 track. Well, thats the choice we have.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Couldn't agree more, Tony. However, for those more interested in operation than visual aesthetics, I also appreciate why many folk stick to 00.

All depends on what the person wants from the hobby. I mainly like building stuff, so having the gauge right is important to me and is a key 'signature' element of modeling the Irish scene.

Am sure others have different priorities and good luck to them, it is this diversity which mades our hobby so appealing to so many different people.

What I will say is that it would be good to see more folk exploring 21mm gauge (and indeed broad gauge in other scales). Fine scale standards do not require P4/S7 wheels and track...

I don't think that there are that (m)any choices still out there for rtr 21m track and points. The Murphy models diesels are very popular and not that easily converted to 21mm as I understand. Relative shortage of stock although fair play to IRM for keeping the option alive with their stock. I have thought about it but it seems to be more for those who love and are able to build with facility.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've been reading nothing but Scalefour Society literature recently and playing around with Templet. Its the way to go for serious modellers but to be honest it is a huge money/time add-on to any layout. I've just forked out £650 for a garden shed to build a new layout and small area for scratch building and to be honest I have to seriously question which way to go on track work before any firm decision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would stick with OO or possibly N if you are planning to build a layout with a continuous run in a 10'X6' shed and you want to get something running quickly. I have been working in 21mm gauge for many years and simply haven;t had the time or space to build a layout.

 

OO gauge rtr model steam locos are designed with considerable sideplay between wheels and chassis to reliably operate around curves of down to 15" radius.

 

Handlaying track and building/converting rolling stock to 21mm gauge is straightforward enough provided you have a methodical approach and access to accurate track and back to back gauges.

 

The minimum radius a loco or coach will traverse becomes a greater limiting factor the closer you get to the prototype in terms of wheel profile and gauge, which is one of the main reasons EM, P4 and 21mm layouts tend to be end to end or shunting planks rather than continuous run.

 

2' radius is the minimum recommended for a main line layout in OO- 3' about the minimum for a 4-4-0 tender loco in 21mm to OO/EM standards -3'6-4' in P4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John is right about the radii, Tony and a 10x6 shed is unlikely to work for a continuous run in 21mm gauge.

However a 10x6 L would make a very nice terminus fiddle yard and leave you the other side for the work bench. In terms of operation, a terminus fiddle yard can be far more authentic than a tail chaser in some ways. It all depends on what you want. Remember, there is much to be said for starting with a fairly modest scheme which will see tangible results in a reasonable time. If you like making stuff, then I would say doing correct gauge makes it that more interesting, challenging and ultimately satisfying. Equally, just because that is what I like does not mean it is the same for everyone else. A hobby is meant to be enjoyed after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David, this could open possibilities. There is no need on my part to have a 'tail chaser' around the shed, the idea of a goods yard and section of shunting track would open several possibilities. I need to also think about moving the layout should I ever consider exhibitions. A series of shelf brackets or trestles would give me this option with baseboard width kept to a minimum width of 400-500mm and a much wider yard area.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Building 4" blockwork on top of 2'x2' flags to raise shed above soil level. Fitting a PVC water channel to side of shed to take any ground water away into gravel soak away. This is going to be home over the winter for a mix of scratch building and contemplating !

Edited by TonyMcGartland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Has the makings of a very cosy man cave, Tony.

 

Indeed, blockwork completed today before rain started. Hopefully, the shed will be ready in 4-5weeks as promised.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Consideration could be given to modelling 21mm to EM flangeway standards, this would allow radius down to about 2'10 and hence could get round in a 6' shed, it also removes the need to compensate locos and wagons , EM has 1mm flangeways as opposed to 0.68mm for p4. 00 style wheel set on longer axles can then be used and trackwork is a little more forgiving

 

 

Visually, you then have 21mm but running models is a little easier and less precise

 

You'd need custom track gauges, but that's not that difficult to make etc

Edited by Junctionmad

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I build all my 21mm stock to EM standards a couple of the locos are compensated but the majority are fixed as are all the coaches and wagons,the main benefit of using 21 is visual with the best will in the world irish viewde end on looks odd.Andy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have been messing around in 21mm gauge for over 20 years to EM standards though I have yet to build a successful layout mainly due to the lack of suitable space to build a layout. I started building an 8'X6' shunting layout a few years ago but gave up because because of side-swipe between coaches as I did not allow enough space between lines on curves, min radius curve was 3'.

 

Track and back to back gauges were sourced from TMD models (the precursor of SSM) many years ago. At one stage SSM also produced 28mm W Irons for 21mm gauge stock and single lever IRCH brake gear used by the GNR and the Southern companies. 21mm loco & wagon/coach wheel sets were sourced from Ultrascale (Gear Services Letchworth) or by cutting and sleeving standard 26mm OO/EM gauge axles with 2mm bore brass tube, more recently I have used locally sourced 28mm Sn3.5 axles from Northyard Models.

 

Ultrascale though expensive is probably the best option in terms of quality, though steam loco driving wheels are largely restricted to GWR types and there is a 3 month lead time between placing and filling an order.

 

 

Alan Gibson produces a large range of wheels and components including brass wire, handrail knobs, bearings, though availability is somewhat patchy. High Level Models produce a range of gearbpxes which have become the de-facto standard for 4mm kit and scratch built locos.

 

If you are going down the road of modelling the Omagh in the 1950s or 60s there is no real alternative to scratch or kit building every item of rolling stock. If you choose to use Murphy Models Irish coaches or other rtr OO gauge stock you will need to widen or replace the bogies/underframes as they are too narrow for 21mm gauge wheelsets.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=28600&stc=1

Murphy Models 141 with SSM Bredin Coaches

attachment.php?attachmentid=28601&stc=1

Dapol & Parkside wagons with widened underframes

I did not allow enough clearance between running lines and sidings which lead to side swiping between coaches on curved track

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=28602&stc=1

​CIE Palvan modified from Parkside BR van by moving out solebars and modifying doors

DSCF4010.jpg

DSCF4012.jpg

DSCF4013.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi John, your comments are welcome.

Your opening lines were enough to get me thinking...... "I have been messing around in 21mm gauge for over 20 years to EM standards though I have yet to build a successful layout mainly due to the lack of suitable space to build a layout." There seem to be many issues with 21mm, all of which compound the modeller with problem after problem. I am sure that 21mm is possible, on a budget, with a lot of skill and patience.Thats why I'm throwing this thread out there because its good to hear of the experiences of others. They are valued, thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bear i mind that you don't need a lot to get started thats why Valencia Harbour was built only 3 points all the stock needed to run it apart from a brake van is available.Its always a good idea to start small .Andy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wonder why people insist on using 21mm gauge with EM wheelsets. EM wheels are noticeably wider than prototype so if you use them, the distance over the wheel faces is overlarge. That means loco splashers,valve gear, w-irons, bogies and other stuff often have to be wider than prototype, which looks as wrong as the wrong gauge. Better to model an EM version of 21mm gauge, which would be 20mm or slightly more, depending on how precise you want to be.

 

Everyone seems to focus on the gauge as being sacrosanct, but in reality I think you need to balance gauge against other factors to get the best balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bear i mind that you don't need a lot to get started thats why Valencia Harbour was built only 3 points all the stock needed to run it apart from a brake van is available.Its always a good idea to start small .Andy

 

I plan on modelling various aspects of Omagh that are part of the landscape I grew up around. I hope to model the Goods Yard which has at least six points and the line that runs to the Engine Shed and turntable. The layout won't be geographically correct but will involve modelling both locations precisely and bringing them together with some modellers licence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wonder why people insist on using 21mm gauge with EM wheelsets. EM wheels are noticeably wider than prototype so if you use them, the distance over the wheel faces is overlarge. That means loco splashers,valve gear, w-irons, bogies and other stuff often have to be wider than prototype, which looks as wrong as the wrong gauge. Better to model an EM version of 21mm gauge, which would be 20mm or slightly more, depending on how precise you want to be.

 

Everyone seems to focus on the gauge as being sacrosanct, but in reality I think you need to balance gauge against other factors to get the best balance.

 

In practice using EM gauge wheel sets in 21mm gauge does not have a significant distorting effect on the width of 21mm gauge locos and rolling stock. The overall wheels set width is 0.06 mm wider or ¾" in full size terms using EM rather than S4 wheel sets.

 

The wider 2.28-2.3mm tyre width is largely offset by the narrower back to back gauge of 19.5mm used with modern plastic centered Gibson and Ultrascale wheels, some modelers use "standard" Jackson, Hornby, Bachmann wheels with a back to back of 19.3mm. The looser running tolerance using EM/OO standards is more forgiving in terms of workmanship building trackwork and rolling stock and to run locos and stock round smaller radius curves than feasible in S4

 

Its important to consider that its not always practicable to scale down running clearances between driving wheels and splashers and between rods in valve gear and that it may be necessary to increase clearances even in S4 standards.

SSM locos have been built to 21mm gauge to EM standards by a number of modellers including several J15, S Class 4-4-0s and a number of SG 0-6-0s without significant modification, though it is important to check that there is sufficient clearance behind valance and splashers regardless of whether a loco is being built to 21mm or S4 standards

Edited by Mayner

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi John, your comments are welcome.

Your opening lines were enough to get me thinking...... "I have been messing around in 21mm gauge for over 20 years to EM standards though I have yet to build a successful layout mainly due to the lack of suitable space to build a layout." There seem to be many issues with 21mm, all of which compound the modeller with problem after problem. I am sure that 21mm is possible, on a budget, with a lot of skill and patience.Thats why I'm throwing this thread out there because its good to hear of the experiences of others. They are valued, thanks.

 

My failure to get to grips with building a 21mm gauge layout in 20 years is more to do with external factors and personality than the challenges of scratch and kit building in 21mm gauge. Although my primary modelling interest is the Irish broad gauge I have tended to focus more on building locos and stock in 4mm to 5'3" and the 3' gauge than building a layout as until recently I did not have a suitable space.

 

I have a shortish span of attention and tend to have flirtations in various scales and gauges and over the past 30 years built American N & G Scale, an Irish 3' shelf layout and an EM gauge industrial layout. Apart from the N Gauge all layouts have had spurts of interest followed by long periods of inactivity.

 

Re-gauging a Murphy Models B141 and some Irish Railway Models ballast wagons or Cement Bubbles to 21mm gauge either to EM or S4 standards using Ultrascale or Gibson wheel sets would probably be the simplest way of getting something running before making a final decision between handlaying track in 21mmm gauge or continuing in OO, while gaining experience in kit and scratch building rolling stock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
My failure to get to grips with building a 21mm gauge layout in 20 years is more to do with external factors and personality than the challenges of scratch and kit building in 21mm gauge. Although my primary modelling interest is the Irish broad gauge I have tended to focus more on building locos and stock in 4mm to 5'3" and the 3' gauge than building a layout as until recently I did not have a suitable space.

 

I have a shortish span of attention and tend to have flirtations in various scales and gauges and over the past 30 years built American N & G Scale, an Irish 3' shelf layout and an EM gauge industrial layout. Apart from the N Gauge all layouts have had spurts of interest followed by long periods of inactivity.

 

Re-gauging a Murphy Models B141 and some Irish Railway Models ballast wagons or Cement Bubbles to 21mm gauge either to EM or S4 standards using Ultrascale or Gibson wheel sets would probably be the simplest way of getting something running before making a final decision between handlaying track in 21mmm gauge or continuing in OO, while gaining experience in kit and scratch building rolling stock.

 

Hi John

 

I have the exact same problems no space and a bit of a butterfly span of attention, I do admire all those guys who can stick to getting one model and get it finished

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I've been reading nothing but Scalefour Society literature recently and playing around with Templet. Its the way to go for serious modellers but to be honest it is a huge money/time add-on to any layout. I've just forked out £650 for a garden shed to build a new layout and small area for scratch building and to be honest I have to seriously question which way to go on track work before any firm decision.

 

Hi Tony

 

I spoke to the new owner of C&L Trackwork yesterday at an Exhibition and we both agreed that while a custom built 21mm gauge point might be say 25-35% more than an off the shelf Peco point, you just can't get that look any cheaper.

 

To be fair this is one of the reasons why I have found it so hard to get started with 21mm gauge, I have been quoted silly money in the past for hand built point work, but if you can find someone who can make a decent point at a reasonable price then other factors need to come in to the equation, such as will it save me time? It is one less problem to consider, we are not all good at everything in modelling, sometimes it is good to get others involved with our projects.

 

The guy at C&L who has just taken over, said that there are a lot of old computer files he has not looked at yet so they may be something in there, he appears to be very helpful and I guess it will be a two way development if he is to help us get 21mm gauge templates at some stage.

 

He did suggest for the short term that we could buy his P4 point work kits and then adjust them to 21mm gauge.

 

What we need now is someone to make 21mm gauge: roller gauges, back to back gauges and the tri gauge for curves as well and I am sure it will become much easier.

 

While it is early day, I did find him very helpful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi Tony

 

I spoke to the new owner of C&L Trackwork yesterday at an Exhibition and we both agreed that while a custom built 21mm gauge point might be say 25-35% more than an off the shelf Peco point, you just can't get that look any cheaper.

 

To be fair this is one of the reasons why I have found it so hard to get started with 21mm gauge, I have been quoted silly money in the past for hand built point work, but if you can find someone who can make a decent point at a reasonable price then other factors need to come in to the equation, such as will it save me time? It is one less problem to consider, we are not all good at everything in modelling, sometimes it is good to get others involved with our projects.

 

The guy at C&L who has just taken over, said that there are a lot of old computer files he has not looked at yet so they may be something in there, he appears to be very helpful and I guess it will be a two way development if he is to help us get 21mm gauge templates at some stage.

 

He did suggest for the short term that we could buy his P4 point work kits and then adjust them to 21mm gauge.

 

What we need now is someone to make 21mm gauge: roller gauges, back to back gauges and the tri gauge for curves as well and I am sure it will become much easier.

 

While it is early day, I did find him very helpful.

 

I was under the impression that these items are already available through the P4 Society?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was under the impression that these items are already available through the P4 Society?

 

Yes, I am a member of the Scalefour Society and am well aware of whats available. I think others, who may not be members are not.

Edited by TonyMcGartland

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Tony,

 

I was not aware of all the bits available via the Scale4 Society thanks for bring me up to date.

 

On RMWeb I asked the same question and some one has offered to buy the gauges I am after which inmy case will be the curved gauge widening three point gauge and there is another I have asked him to get me as well, just need to wait for a reply and the cost of postage for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yes, I am a member of the Scalefour Society and am well aware of whats available. I think others, who may not be members are not.

 

Well, that's me told then! :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Garfield, my reply wasn't intended to be abrupt or rude at all. sorry if you interpreted it that way.

 

No worries, Tony. I'm guilty of short, snappy replies myself at times, especially if logged in on my phone!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


×

Important Information

Terms of Use