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Noel

RPSI Craven Coach set

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Video clip of RPSI Craven coach set (designed by MM). Not the 'Munster Double', but two 071s namely 073 and 085 in consist hauling the 3 coach set. Need to fix the wobbly axle on the 1st coach. :) The build and finish quality are as good as Murphy Models own Cravens.

 

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IMG_3164a.jpg

 

IMG_3164.jpg

 

IMG_3163.jpg

 

IMG_3163a.jpg

 

They are beautifully finished but do not run well unlike MM Cravens. Will have to replace wheel sets to get rid of the excessive wobble on all three coaches in my set.

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Alot of complaints about the poor running on these coaches.? Is it the wheels? Dissapointing

To see this, l ordered a set yesterday, really lovely job all round.

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Good news is MM have a fix for the wobbly RPSI Cravens.  Chatted with Paddy Murphy yesterday at SDMRC and he has a fix for the RPSI cravens that will be available soon. It's a thin sprung brass shim washer that sits between the bogie and coach floor.  Apparently the RPSI Cravens were built with the exact same tooling as recent MM B&T Cravens but in a different factory. No rhyme nor reason for any difference but something about the process in the other factory may account for the tiniest difference in clearances where the bogies snap fit onto the chassis. Alternatively a very thin plastic card shim washer between the bogie and coach bottom will do the same job.  

Edited by Noel
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I'm glad there is a fix. That's some of the worst wobbling I've seen in a while. I have 6 sitting somewhere but have have not had a chance to run them so fingers crossed. Otherwise, very nice cosmetically but running is a must 

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Lot of wobble the cream and blue to my eye especially the lead coach, although there is definitely some on the orange also.  

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That Murphy Models 4 u Divecontroller.........................There Not 2 Bad  Did u Watch the 1st Vidoe @ the top of the Page that Lot of wobble the cream and blue  to my eye especially the First coach.........

Edited by Rails_of_Belfast
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16 minutes ago, Rails_of_Belfast said:

That Murphy Models 4 u Divecontroller.........................There Not 2 Bad  Did u Watch the 1st Vidoe @ the top of the Page that Lot of wobble the cream and blue  to my eye especially the First coach.........

These are not Murphy Model coaches man, they are an RPSI production

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Absolutely no idea what you are trying to say there man

But I will repeat what I said earlier

Murphy Models did NOT produce these coaches, OK?

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Murphy Models did Produce theses Coaches 4 RSPI .There the Same as Murphy Models  Craven Orang/Black Coaches Man.

Edited by Rails_of_Belfast
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7 minutes ago, Rails_of_Belfast said:

Murphy Models did Produce theses Coaches 4 RSPI .There the Same as Murphy Models  Craven Orang/Black Coaches Man.

Not so. I understand RPSI contracted directly with a factory in China rather than Murphy Models. I understand Murphy Models kindly allowed their Craven design to be used and assisted RPSI with same.  They are the same moulds as MM Cravens, but the blue/cream coaches were contracted by RPSI directly from a different factory.

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8 hours ago, Rails_of_Belfast said:

Cheers & Thanks 4 the True info of the Blue/Cream Craven Noel.

Your welcome.  I was only affirming what @WRENNEIRE had already posted. 

The RPSI coaches are beautiful and mine are just waiting for a 3173 maroon GSV to run with.

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2 hours ago, Noel said:

Your welcome.  I was only affirming what @WRENNEIRE had already posted. 

The RPSI coaches are beautiful and mine are just waiting for a 3173 maroon GSV to run with.

I would in Interested in 3173 Maroon GAV 2 run with my Set.Is there  any plans of 3173 Maroon GVS.So I Cn Make 1 Frm a Old coach.

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25 minutes ago, Rails_of_Belfast said:

I would in Interested in 3173 Maroon GAV 2 run with my Set.Is there  any plans of 3173 Maroon GVS.So I Cn Make 1 Frm a Old coach.

Unlikely due low numbers. Two possible options for a maroon GSV:

  1. Kit bash a BR Mk1 brake donor of some sort into a GSV either by cut'n'join plastic, or brass etched sides from Bill Bedford or Studio Scale models. Bachmann Brake 2nd BCK make good donors (i.e. one with the five large windows each side).
  2. Buy RTR GSV from Silverfox and respray it RPSI maroon and apply RPSI transfers, but strictly speaking it will not be correct because SF's GSV is BSK arrangement like 3185, whereas the RPSI's maroon 3173 is a BCK arrangement (i.e. windows and doors are in different positions).

I've seen nice maroon BSK GSVs like @WRENNEIRE's running with the RPSI Cravens and they look good.

GSV_BSK_3185_mods.jpg

GSV_BCK_3173_mods.jpg

Edited by Noel
Typo/Lexdysia
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Kit bashing a BSK is one thing ( as you have done Noel) but kit bashing a BCK is major job , what about brass overlays and cover over the one door as the RPSI have done .

 

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I was asked why the thing was painted maroon by the RPSI - it clashes horribly with the blue and cream coaches, and for that matter, any "heritage" liveried diesel.

The answer is that this was to match the wooden set gems like 351 and 1142, should they ever operate on the main line. I'm unaware, I have to say, of any likelihood of this happening, and if they truly wanted it to match those two very fine vehicles, a much darker "purple lake" might have been suitable.

For modellers information, the OTHER BR van which the RPSI has will be finished either in blue and cream or plain blue when it's restored.

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Mouse Models produce brass overlays of the ex BCK version of the BGSV, if anyone is interested?

Stephen

Sorry, should have said Mousa Models.

Stephen

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It's a pity there are so few illustrations on their website.

I was looking at some of their British coach kits, which by all appearances look very nice. But I'm no great expert on British rolling stock, so to describe something as a Great Central Type C, class Z2 open BSO, means no more to me than the man in the moon.

There are some Midland (of England) kits which would be very close to some ex-WLWR 6-wheeled* stock still in use in the fifties.

 

(*   Six wheeled - naturally! Like the BCDR, the Waterford & Limerick only had about six bogie coaches!)

Edited by jhb171achill

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2 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Kit bashing a BSK is one thing ( as you have done Noel) but kit bashing a BCK is major job , what about brass overlays and cover over the one door as the RPSI have done .

I'll soon find out as I am just about to start a Bachmann BCK conversion to a maroon 3173.  I got a pair of Bill Bedford (Mousa) brass sides for £12 which are nice, but I am not keen on their lack of relief detail, so I am going to cut'n'join and fill the Bachmann plastic sides because of the nice glazing and surface detail such as window frames, door handles, hinges, panel recesses, etc.

1 hour ago, StevieB said:

Mouse Models produce brass overlays of the ex BCK version of the BGSV, if anyone is interested?

Stephen

Sorry, should have said Mousa Models.

Stephen

Thanks I have a set.  Was all set to go.  Lima BSK on top of pic, Bachmann BCK below with possible brass sides from Mousa (Bill Bedford).

IMG_3615.jpg

Edited by Noel
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2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I was asked why the thing was painted maroon by the RPSI - it clashes horribly with the blue and cream coaches, and for that matter, any "heritage" liveried diesel.

The answer is that this was to match the wooden set gems like 351 and 1142, should they ever operate on the main line. I'm unaware, I have to say, of any likelihood of this happening, and if they truly wanted it to match those two very fine vehicles, a much darker "purple lake" might have been suitable.

For modellers information, the OTHER BR van which the RPSI has will be finished either in blue and cream or plain blue when it's restored.

Thanks Jonathan.  It clashes but I quite like the look of the maroon 3173 with the Cravens.  I was tempted on the recent Lima job to paint it blue in anticipation of the 3185 overhaul, but decided against as I didn't know if it would end up all over blue or blue and cream like the Cravens.  That'll be another model GSV conversion for another time. :)   

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8 minutes ago, Noel said:

 I was tempted  .............as I didn't know if it would end up all over blue or blue and cream like the Cravens.  

That'll depend on the volunteers with the paintbrushes in their hands, on the day!  😃

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3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

That'll depend on the volunteers with the paintbrushes in their hands, on the day!  😃

Surely it will depend on whoever buys the paint! :) 

As it is a 'preservation' exercise, one might have thought they might consider painting it in its original 1970s Black'n'Tan livery rather than a livery that was never in traffic, however attractive it is. :) I've no doubt it will look stunning if done in Blue'n'Cream to match the cravens.

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There has been a long running discussion on what way things in preservation should be finished.

As a teenage volunteer at Whitehead (over forty years ago) I worked on carriage restoration. The old wooden coaches were painted outdoors (no carriage shed, let alone scaffolding, safety harnesses, day-glo jackets, hard hats, or anything). Any paint that was donated, or could be got cheap, went on carriages. So, when those who might say "stop whinging about liveries and get your sleeves rolled up!" speak, I can absolutely sympathise. I am also, as those long-suffering here will know all too well, of the opinion that in this day and age, there is no reason NOT to paint things accurately, and for trying to pass on accurate information about the external appearance of things.

So, truly, i do see both sides, and consider myself neutral, believe it or not.  Both have a point; but neither are exclusively right.

 

Opinion 1.   The "livery doesn't matter" brigade.

"It doesn't matter what colour it is, as long as it's preserved".  (Maybe, but if it was blue, why not paint it blue instead of red?)

"If it was broken up, there'd be no fuss, but paint it the wrong colour and there's war!"  (very valid point!)

"Sure they never painted them the same colour anyway. Inchicore / Dundalk / York Road* (*delete as applicable) just went to the local paint shop and bought what green / maroon / blue* (delete as applicable) they had in stock!"  (Abject nonsense; all railways took a pride in their appearance and corporate images, and the GNR and GSR even appointed chemists in Inchicore and Dundalk, part of whose remit was to ensure consistency of paint mixes. Livery changes were deliberate, and the above urban myth appears to have originated in Whitehead in the early 1970s when it was pointed out by older people that the blue they initially painted 171 in was far, far too light!)

"Well, I don't like grey locos. I like it black".  (A pity, because while you're doing the work, and fair play to you; others aren't - perhaps the opinion of more than just the painter ought to be considered, especially if the thing was never black in real life?)

 

Opinion 2.   The committed non-nonsense volunteer.

"You're standing on the platform there wittering on about the wrong gangway connection on this coach, and I've just spent three &*^# weekends in the freezing %$*^ cold, for no pay, painting it and varnishing it, and all you can come up with is that it's the WRONG *&^% livery!!  I don't see YOU rolling up your sleeves doing anything useful!!"  (Very, very valid point; though a little effort on paint choice might have made everyone happy for no extra effort?).

"I haven't time to paint anything any colour. I have two broken toilets to fix before the train on Saturday, and I've no help. I'm supposed to be posting out newsletters this evening because they're two months overdue, but I don't think I'll be home on time, as i have to do overtime tonight in order to steam raise on Sunday morning - while you're in your bed!"  (Completely valid!)

 

Opinion 3.   The historian.

"This loco never had lining like that in traffic".  (Yes, but it can be painted out of necessary?)

"If a vehicle is worth preserving, it's worth doing it right and finishing it right". (If it hasn't been started already absolutely correct)

"They should repaint this, and paint that one there the correct way."  (And who, exactly, is "they"? Will you make a start this weekend, and buy the paint yourself?)

 

Opinion 4.  The armchair railway enthusiast.

Well, they'll trot out the "should paint it this way" line too - but the answers from those at the front line are best not printed here!

 

MY bottom line: It is clearly as easy to paint something one colour as another. Cravens were painted in a new livery - initially all over blue with yellow lining, later blue and cream, because of two reasons. First, IE were still using some stuff in orange and black, and wanted the Society to "distance" itself livery-wise from IE stock in case of public confusions over identity. Secondly, and this also applies to the Society's Whitehead set, those involved took the view that something entirely different was appropriate. Since Cravens were never in green (fine, though, they'd have looked in it), it's no more inaccurate to paint them blue as green. Some of the Whitehead Mk 2s never even ran here at all, and even the Irish ones never ran behind steam, so an approximation to a steam-era livery might do.

Locos, heritage coaches and wagons: throughout the entire Irish heritage movement, those decorated incorrectly sometimes garishly so (like the zebra-striped "Ivan" at Whitehead), greatly outnumber those finished correctly. This even applies to every single goods vehicle in Cultra, the Castlederg and C & L coaches, and the incorrect tender markings on 800. I could go on, but reading my own comments above would appear not just churlish but hypocritical, given my opening comments.

To preservationists I say - as a retired one, i unconditionally support everything you do. FULL stop.  But surely, with the "exception of the exceptions"(!), like cravens,  it's better to finish things accurately, The colour is the first thing you see of anything, and it's as easy to do it right as wrong, and nor more expensive....so.....! You are also providing value for historians, film-makers and modellers with no extra effort. What's arguable against that?

To modellers I say - it's YOUR layout. You want a pink Fintona tram hauled by a tartan 201 class? Fine. Nobody can say you're "wrong". You want to buy a highly expensive kit and make it up wrongly? Sure. Your money, your time, your layout. BUT: if you want accuracy, as SOME do, its good for (a) the information to be out there, chapter and verse, and (b) it's a great pity if even a museum or operator of the genuine preserved article leads you unwittingly astray in terms of its appearance.

Over'n'out. I'm sticking the kettle on, if anyone wants a refill.

 

Edited by jhb171achill
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Excellent. See ye in the Step Inn; a pint of Guinness awaits. (We'll have to do that some time now that I know you're local....)

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