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Colin R

Finding old kits

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Well just had a great surprise, I was looking for something else and came across two small white boxes, blew the dust off and low and behold some old long lost SSM kits.

they are an GNR S class

A T2 class loco and

a GNR(i) 20 ton Brake van.

No wheels or motors for any of the kits, but that is not a problem as they can be got from Branchlines in the UK. I was not sure when I started getting into the Irish Model scene but it appears I got them back in 1989, I wonder if this is record for the longest a kit has not been made up?

 

Colin

 

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I have a 009 coach kit, not made up (and it's on my "for sale" list from the other day, I think). I bought it about that sort of timescale too, maybe not quite as old but thereabouts.....

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Eoin would make a tidy job of that, shame to have it sat on a shelf :P

Edited by Glenderg

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To make "Harvey", a bit of alteration to the rear bunker would be necessary.

Incidentally, she never ran in the (yet again!) fictitious preservation livery she has always carried at Whitehead.  I remember her arriving - she was in the LPHC's livery of a very dark green and with utterly different lining. This may, fortunately, still be seen on LPHC No. 1 in Cultra.

I really do wish that preservationists here would apply the same meticulousness to the accuracy of paint jobs as they do in Britain.  There is no excuse - it's as easy to paint something red as blue.

Time and time again we see models, superbly and painstakingly made, and the modeller is effectively misled by preserved inaccurate paint schemes. Probably the most garish example is the zebra-striped "Ivan", the colourful GNR brake van! Yellow flying snails, black wagon chassis....

I know, I know, many don't mind, but others are content with wrong bogies or buffers, while this would cause others again to reach for the smelling salts, the better to stave off attacks of the Screaming Fits, Convoluted Conniptions, and Multiple Allergies.......

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9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

To make "Harvey", a bit of alteration to the rear bunker would be necessary.

Incidentally, she never ran in the (yet again!) fictitious preservation livery she has always carried at Whitehead.  I remember her arriving - she was in the LPHC's livery of a very dark green and with utterly different lining. This may, fortunately, still be seen on LPHC No. 1 in Cultra.

I really do wish that preservationists here would apply the same meticulousness to the accuracy of paint jobs as they do in Britain.  There is no excuse - it's as easy to paint something red as blue.

Time and time again we see models, superbly and painstakingly made, and the modeller is effectively misled by preserved inaccurate paint schemes. Probably the most garish example is the zebra-striped "Ivan", the colourful GNR brake van! Yellow flying snails, black wagon chassis....

I know, I know, many don't mind, but others are content with wrong bogies or buffers, while this would cause others again to reach for the smelling salts, the better to stave off attacks of the Screaming Fits, Convoluted Conniptions, and Multiple Allergies.......

You are so right when it comes to heritage and preservation, it is one thing to look at Thomas the Tank as a away to bring in the money but heritage groups also have a a duty of care for the items they hold, I suspect you would have mass apoplexy if some one painted a GWR pannier tank in BR lined blue or some other modern livery such as purple and white, as you say John, it only takes one mistake before some one else thinks that is the correct way of things.

While we can't due to various Health and Safety Regulations can't use Red or White Lead in our paints anymore we do need to try even harder to get the correct shade of colour as used on a locomotive during it days while it was working.

As an example and I am sure this is not right,  recently I was told that the GNR(I) only adopted the Blue livery after some one from the Caledonian Railway decided to move to Ireland with some spare paint, I don't think for one moment that is true, but that is the sort of story which make things so much more difficult for later generations to work out what is historically correct, also I don't think the old CR and the GNR(I) blue are the same shade anyway.    

As for the your kit Wrennerie I think on one of the other forums ( RM Web???) some one was asking if anyone had one for sale as I am not sure if they are still available.

 

Regards

 

Colin 

 

 

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Cheers Colin

I saw this some time ago and tried to contact the guy but I was blocked for some reason

Contacted Admin and patiently waiting for a reply

I found a second Impetus kit, suitable for Guinness or Coultards in Antrim?

 

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2 hours ago, Colin R said:

As an example and I am sure this is not right,  recently I was told that the GNR(I) only adopted the Blue livery after some one from the Caledonian Railway decided to move to Ireland with some spare paint, I don't think for one moment that is true, but that is the sort of story which make things so much more difficult for later generations to work out what is historically correct, also I don't think the old CR and the GNR(I) blue are the same shade anyway.    

 

 

Absolutely correct, Colin. In the 1960s, among the youthful pioneering RPSI preservationist members (to whom, it must not be forgotten, we owe the very existence of these things no matter what colour theyre painted!), legions of stories arose relating to GNR blue. When initially painted blue by the early RPSI, the sdahe was way, way too light, and the excuse given was that at Dundalk, "they'd just go to the local shop and get whatever blue paint they had" -or- "sure no two of them were ever the same shade of blue". The stories were as crass as they were ninsense; the one you quote above was indeed another!

I personally knew the late Marcus Bailie-Gage, who was closely involved as Dundalk Works Manager with the paint laboratory, and the company like all other companies went to great lengths to mix their own paint to exact formulae. Such suggestions above would have certainly given poor Marcus the Heebie-Jeebies with multiple complications..... he would have spat out his jam sandwiches which he had for lunch......

In reality, a fledgling preservation movement was finding out the hard way that what's on a model won't work in real life, and vice versa - witness, for example, the current shade of green on 461 which I think I'm right in saying was copied from a model - it isn't accurate at all. The shade on 800 in Cultra is actual CIE paint. Blue, also, is a nororiously hard colour to replicate on models.

A model is viewed in different lighting conditions to a "real thing". I know i don't have to comment to the very experienced modellers here on the pitfalls of getting "real paint" for a model. Sometimes it works, but it can't be guaranteed. A more "watered down" version is often better on a model, especially with wagons; whoever saw a shiny varnish-like sheen on a good wagon?

To veer back towards the subject of the thread, I suppose a lost kit presents an opportunity to make a good looking new model from scratch and paint it properly! Tartan for GNR locos, black and pink for CIE steam, purple and day-glo blue for Mk 3 coaches, and (Pat, turn away;) NCC maroon for bubbles...........................................................................

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Wrenn 

You would be better off holding on to those unbuilt Impetus industrials as an investment that trying to butcher them into Irish locos. Impetus kits were very well though of at the time they were introduced and go for astronomical prices on E-Bay.

The Hunslet 15" & Bagnall 15" (I would be tempted to make you an offer for the Bagnall) are quite unlike Harvey and the Guinness & Courtards 0-4-0s.

If anyone is interested in modelling Irish Industrials.

Agenoria (7mm)/CPS (4mm)  http://cspmodels.com/abante/index.php?rt=product/category&path=65 produce kits that can be assembled as reasonably accurate models of the Irish steam Industrials.

Judith Edge produce a Ruston & Hornsby 165DS the same type as the CSE Tuam Loco.

Impetus used to produce the smaller Ruston & Hornsby DS88 type used at the other sugar factories.

I am not sure if anyone has produced a kit for the Guinness Hudswell Clarke 0-4-0 diesel although Impetus produced the larger 0-6-0 version. 

The Hornby W4 Peckett is probably the closest to an Irish RTR industrial loco. The ex-Allman Distillery Peckett Paddy was re-numbered 495 and retained her/his lined green livery with red frames until withdrawn by CIE in 1949  https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/peckett-w4-0-4-0st-the-story-so-far/

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Oh Mayner :( I wished you hadn't have posted that link for 4mm Industrial locos, it is one of my true weakness's :dancing: I also have another link to share http://www.modelrailways.tv/4mm-scale-page1.html

This also has industrial steam, I have a feeling there are a couple of other 4mm scale Industrial loco manufactures out there as well, but I don't have a link for them at the moment :)

I haven't found a kit or a model that looks anything like the pair of locos at Down Patrick any one have a suggestion?

Regards

Colin

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4 hours ago, Mayner said:

 

The Hornby W4 Peckett is probably the closest to an Irish RTR industrial loco. The ex-Allman Distillery Peckett Paddy was re-numbered 495 and retained her/his lined green livery with red frames until withdrawn by CIE in 1949  https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/news/the-engine-shed/peckett-w4-0-4-0st-the-story-so-far/

The Peckett was unnamed. "Paddy" was the ex GSWR coal gantry loco, bodged together from an ancient loco tender, vertical boiler and odds and ends.

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Right had a gathering up of my Irish Standard gauge kits and they are as follows:-

2 S class 4-4-0 Tender locos

1T2 class4-4-2T

1 E class 0-6-0T

1 GNR 20T Brake van kit

Plus for some unknown reason a spare GNR Tender kit

2018 will, subject to me having the cash, will see me purchase a few more Irish kits from SSM :- 1 J15 and 1 'Bandon' Tank are both on that list.

There are a few others which I will get my hands on a couple of those Bachmann 4-4-2T tanks which some one on here done some wonderful convertions on.  

I have also forgotten the number of old 4mm scale bogie coaches I have to convert to Irish types well they are the old Farish bogies coaches which will do for now as temporary stand in stock.

Then there is the good stock, which I don't have a great deal of at present, but I hope to improve on that side of things next year as well. 

 

Colin

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Colin R
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In terms of the O & K locos at Downpatrick, I've never come across anything even remotely close. You're looking at a scratchbuild, I would think, and the wheels would be a challenge - they're very small.

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Yes I agree I think the wheels are 2ft 71/2inches dia or 800mm to be correct they are based on the standard O&K 110HP design. But getting the rest of the details will have to wait unless some one has a drawing of them.

Had wonder about the old hornby 0-4-0 GWR/Industrial Tank they used to do as a basis.

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I think the wheels would be too large, and the wheelbase too long?

I'm unaware of the existence of drawings. I must ask around in the IRRS.... maybe the DCDR has them (though I never saw any....)

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Not sure on the wheel base but the wheels are do able at 10.5mm dia from Markits, might be a problem with axle length.

 

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10 hours ago, Colin R said:

Oh Mayner :( I wished you hadn't have posted that link for 4mm Industrial locos, it is one of my true weakness's :dancing: I also have another link to share http://www.modelrailways.tv/4mm-scale-page1.html

This also has industrial steam, I have a feeling there are a couple of other 4mm scale Industrial loco manufactures out there as well, but I don't have a link for them at the moment :)

I haven't found a kit or a model that looks anything like the pair of locos at Down Patrick any one have a suggestion?

Regards

Colin

I got hooked on industrial locos while I was living in the UK and explored many of the smaller rail served sites in the South East and Midlands before BR gave up on less than train load traffic in the early 1990s and even built a small shunting yard layout based on an Iain Rice scheme. The layout could be set up quickly and operated self contained or linked to a larger layout. The Industrials went off the boil when I sold the layout before moving to New Zealand, I have a 3/4 complete High Level 0-6-0St sitting in a box for most of the past 15 years.. Hopefully I will get to complete it some day

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I have always like UK light railways, but the pull of the Irish narrow gauge railways has been much stronger and the Donegal in particular.

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Having a serious think about letting some of these kits go, had great ideas when I managed to pick them up, but after clearing years of dust off them I have come to realise that they will never be made while I own them. 

Or I might dust them off and move them to a different shelf?

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Hi Wrennerie, what ever you decide to do will be the correct decision for you, to be honest you are the first person on this list that I know has any of these kits, I wonder if this will encourage others to step into the daylight with there Backwoods kits, I have a number of their Cavan and Leitrim loco kits to build at some point, but I have always wondered who has brought these kits in the past, I would like to think it has been a lot of you guys on here.

Not wishing to put any of you off, but I have been told these Backwoods kits are a bit of a pain to build , so are not for the faint hearted or if you want to rush the building process (hence the reason why I haven't pluck up enough courage to start a build yet).

I look forward to hearing from anyone on here who may have a backwoods kit as it has always been difficult to find out just how many have been sold or where these kits have ended up.

I am talking to Pete regarding this range, but due to family issues he has had to put the whole Backwoods range on hold, so if I hear anything you guys will be the first to hear about it, I realise that you could never sell hundreds of these kits, but I am keen to see what can be done and what new locos could be produced in 00n3 in the future.

 

Colin

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I made up a couple of their goods vans many years ago for a long defunct narrow gauge layout, and I didn't find them too difficult, I have to say.

Edited by jhb171achill
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Hi John was that the Nine line kits or the Whitemetal Backwoods kits?

One issue with the Backwoods wagons is you could only use one of each body section if you wanted a square kit. I am in the process of designing a couple of C&L resin van body shells for my own layout,  I am having some issues with getting the air vents to look right at present.

Colin

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Some of the kits I have uncovered

Perseverance 2-4-2 Webb, for a DSER 64/GSR 427 

Perseverance 2-4-2 Webb, for a DSER 59-63

London Road Models 0-6-0st, DNGR 1-6

Impetus Hunslet 0-6-0, LPHC No 3

Impetus Manning Wardel 0-6-0 Allmans Distillery Cork? 

Impetus Bagnall 0-4-0 Guinness or Coultards Co Antrim?

TMD/SSM J26 0-6-0T X 2

TMD GNR/UTA T2 4-4-2T

TMD/SSM J15 X 2

TMD/SSM S Class 4-4-0

Micro Rail 6 wheel coaches, DNGR 3RD & Full brake

SSM 5X GSWR etc 1st, 1st/2nd, Comp, 2 x 3rds & Brake 3rd

SSM 20T Brake van

Model Wagon Co. 16 x cattle wagons

Branchlines Hunslet T&D 2-6-0 X 2

Backwoods LLSR Hudswell Clarke 4-8-0

Backwoods Co Donegal Cl5 2-6-4

Backwoods C&L/CIE 4-4-0T

Backwoods Co Donegal Railbus No 14

Ambrico Co Donegal Railbus / West Clare

Branchlines Clogher Valley Ist/3rd  class coach x 2

Branchlines Clogher Valley Ist class coach

Backwoods Co Donegal Coaches x 3, 1/3rd 3rd & 3rd/Brake

Backwoods C/L / CIE Covered goods vans x 6

Backwoods T&D Cattle trucks x 6

Backwoods Co Donegal Cattle / covered wagons x 6 

Branchlines Clogher Valley Horse Box x 2

Chivers T7D Horse box x 2

Nine Lines Co Donegal Standard covered wagons x 6

Nine Lines Co Donegal open wagons x 6

I have pics of them if interested

 

 

 

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What a great list you sure beat me with the number of broad gauge kits, I am sure I have more 3ft gauge kits awaiting building in the shed.

I will need to go and check them out tomorrow. As for my broad gauge kits well that is another matter, I don't have that many.

I will certainly go and get my hands on a LMS Jinty to convert to 21mm gauge so I have something to run and then there is that Bachmann L&Y 2-4-2T to repaint and detail into a B&CDR  loco.

I would love to see some of those photos you mentioned Wrennerie.

Regards

Colin

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The Ragstone kit of the Clogher 0-4-2T that I bought at the Reading Trade Show on 1st December last year is still in its box, as I am concentrating on buildings for Fintonagh. Apart from when I bought the two Sligo small tanks and one remained in its box for six months, that is a record for me - I've always got on with what I buy straight away.

 Most modellers I know are the opposite though. A standing joke at the Chatham club is to mention the Pressflow cement wagons. Half a dozen on these 7mm scale kits were bought about 20 years ago and shared among members to build. So far, less than half completed...

 Mayner is right about the Impetus kits. They were state of the art when Robin Arkinsall was producing them many years ago - probably the equivalent of Judith Edge kits today. Am sure I would not have been able to resist and likewise all those juicy Backwoods Miniatures. Had they been done in 7mm scale, I might well have been doing both Swilly and Donegal instead of the Sligo.

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Hi David that is the problem the Backwood's kits had the original art work still been about, I am sure a 7mm scale kit of a number of those kits would have appeared by now.

To be honest that is the thinking behind a possible new range of Irish based kits not only in 4mm but also 7mm as well.

 

Colin

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3 hours ago, Colin R said:

Hi David that is the problem the Backwood's kits had the original art work still been about, I am sure a 7mm scale kit of a number of those kits would have appeared by now.

To be honest that is the thinking behind a possible new range of Irish based kits not only in 4mm but also 7mm as well.

 

Colin

The lack of commercial success of the Backwoods Miniatures 4mm Irish kits may be a bigger factor affecting the re-introduction the kits or the introduction of the range in 7mm than any issues alleged issues involving the artwork

I bought and assembled a number of Backwoods Miniatures Irish narrow gauge kits and spoke to Pete McParlin the designer/owner of the business on a number of occasions during the past 20 year

Pete not consider the Irish kits to be a commercial success and focused increasingly on the OO9 and On30 American market including commissioning rtr on30 brass locos from China. Backwoods produced the Irish kits to special order since  around 1996-7 presumably ordering the etchings as required until until their stock of castings, wheels gears and motors ran out.

When we last spoke about 4-5 years ago  Pete told me that he failed to sell a single CVR 0-4-2T kit since its introduction in 1993-4. The display model of the CVR loco looked very nice, with skirts raised on one side to display the joy valve gear. The loco kits were reasonably priced for complete kits including wheels gears and motor. Backwoods used a combination of on-line and magazine advertising and attending specialist narrow gauge and major model railway exhibitions including a display of painted and assembled kits including the CVR 0-4-2T.

In retrospect Backwoods made the mistake of overestimating the level of interest in OOn3 models of Irish locos and stock following the early success with the OO9/OOn3 County Donegal Railcars and simply introduced a very diverse range of Irish OOn3  locos and stock that the market could not support.

John

Edited by Mayner

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On 12/11/2017 at 5:53 PM, Colin R said:

What a great list you sure beat me with the number of broad gauge kits, I am sure I have more 3ft gauge kits awaiting building in the shed.

I will need to go and check them out tomorrow. As for my broad gauge kits well that is another matter, I don't have that many.

I will certainly go and get my hands on a LMS Jinty to convert to 21mm gauge so I have something to run and then there is that Bachmann L&Y 2-4-2T to repaint and detail into a B&CDR  loco.

I would love to see some of those photos you mentioned Wrennerie.

Regards

Colin

Page 21 & 22 of my Murphy Models/Lima thread has some pics
If there are any particular ones you would like to see I will try and get you some pics

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I have a Backwoods C&L 4-4-0T kit sitting in a box in ye ol' homeplace. I'll get around to it one day...

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13 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Do Backwoods have a website? I can't seem to find one.

They used to, JB, although I’m not sure if they’re still trading. As Mayner said above, they stopped producing their Irish outline kits due to lack of interest...

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