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I want to paint 2 coaches in CIE green. So i need to know is the dark green on the Murphy Models/Bachmann correct.

Or should it be lighter like the coach in The quiet man film?

The 2 pictures are here for you to see the difference.

 

MM green coach corridor 3rd..jpg

green 2..jpg

Edited by popeye

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16 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi Steve

With the last image I posted, I reckon hold off on doing anything until we see comments back over a few days!

After doing this exercise this morning my preference is now for 14 C 35 on all the EDN colour- lined snail, unlined snail, and the body stripes- and not use 216 at all.

On the lining;-

I'm sure you thought of it- the lines could be in short lengths to make it easier to apply, and the below window line goes through the door handles- I can give you dimensions for this off a SSM 6 wheeler kit if you require?

Eoin

 

 

Sounds like a plan. Shall we get the colour(s) nailed first and tackle the dimensions second?

I was thinking about how tricky the lining would be to apply bearing in mind door handles and such. I'd make them so that they're sufficiently thin to bed in around recesses but in my experience door handles even on modern models can stand very prominent, possibly even out of scale, and even in the hands of a very accomplished modeller such prominent features can be a nightmare to work around. I'd envisage the best I could help is to just print sufficient lengths of lining (e.g. 260mm lengths for a 4mm coach) and leave the choice to the modeller whether to cut into smaller pieces or not.

 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi johnminnitt

They are the same, I gave the image as for comparison right or left, one or other, but not mixing them

In setting up the samples I used the movie image to extract the colour of the snail/stripe and then used the same palate of colours to select the closest match to the BS colour cards- 14 C 35 comes the closest for that image- if you have an other image your referring to post it up and I'll do the same process to it

Eoin

Yes, I understand your comparison, I was referring to Steve's suggestion of 216 for snails and 14 C 35 for numbers and lines.

On the whole I think I agree with your preference for 14 C 35 for the whole lot.

PS Holts (http://www.autocustompaint.co.uk/Pages/BritishStandardPaint.aspx) list 14 C 35 as 'Braemer Green in the 4800 range, in aerosols and touch-up paints.

Edited by johnminnitt

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

Surely snails, lines and numbers should be the same shade?

Yes, they are / were; always.

On Eoin's comparison, the right hand one looks better. The actual colours available seem to veer between either to yellowy or too much blue - see avatar left for exact version.

The lining - the single line on the lighter green livery is , I think 3 inches thick. Maybe 2 1/2. If anyone is close to Downpatrick or has access to the heritage RPSI set in Dublin, or the CIE green dining car at Whitehead, that can be measured.

For the earlier green livery, the band above the windows looks to be about 8 or maybe 9 inches thick. The band below the windows is wider on the Bachmann coach model - this is entirely incorrect - it should be much narrower, possibly 6 inches. I will try to ascertain this.

As can be seen on the film clip, on both buses and carriages the EDN bands were edged with black and gold. On snails and numerals, lined gold.

Edited by jhb171achill

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Hi Guys

The plot thickens

I contacted my excellent railway historical source to see if he could shed some light on this subject, amazingly he has a GUARD sign which he photographed and sent me, I adjusted the levels and pasted in the colour references we have been discussing and sent him the image, he and an assistant have viewed the image with the board in his fist and conclude that 216 is the closest match

The transfer is an original CIÉ 1950s
The paint green came from carriage shop Inchicore  by Cyril Fry. 
The board is foam board nó undercoat two coats of paint not varnished. 
The transfer was beginning to perish but not "yellowed" Transfer is not sealed. 
5a9973a88438d_CIEGuardSign-00IMG_20180302_142251.jpg.bef88602122c3cca0b9b757ade85b1fd.jpg 
 
5a9973a9b325e_EauDeNilSample-00IMG_20180302_142255.jpg.3ed46140a1cf9a1fce961b435ffffa0a.jpg
 
They are going to view it again on different screens and see if they have the same opinion on 216 and come back to me.
I have also discussed meeting up with him and going to a paint supply system to get an exact reference match and some paint to do a test
 
What a nice thing to have
 
I shall report back
 
Eoin
 
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I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

003.JPG

002.JPG

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Posted (edited)

In my humble opinion, Eau-de-nil is really really light, more of a toothpaste level of colour saturation than the vibrant colours shown. I know there's headboards from headhunters and so on, but the colour is just a really washed out version of the main green colour. 

I painted these coaches many years ago with what I consider to be the lighter shade, with commensurate eau de nil for the stripe, and when glossed up, and weathered, tone to match photo's I've referred to. Much paint was messed about in trying to get a shade right that I thought might be right. Could still be wrong, mind, and would happily admit it. 

The other shades shown are bottom left a CIE green (I think, could be ammonia frames too) , and right, an RPSI Green to match the MK2 coaches and bachmann yank ones. R

 

Edit - Would it be possible there are two Eau-de-Nil  shades to match each period of CIE green @jhb171achill

DSC_0154.JPG

Edited by Glenderg
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3 hours ago, popeye said:

I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

003.JPG

002.JPG

That's pretty good, yes. The dark green - providing the computer screen shows it accurately - is just right. The EDN looks fine too - there appears to be a slight difference between the paint and the transfer, but it's close enough. The close-up pic of the paint pot above, however, for the EDN looks fine to me.

53 minutes ago, Glenderg said:

In my humble opinion, Eau-de-nil is really really light, more of a toothpaste level of colour saturation than the vibrant colours shown. I know there's headboards from headhunters and so on, but the colour is just a really washed out version of the main green colour. 

I painted these coaches many years ago with what I consider to be the lighter shade, with commensurate eau de nil for the stripe, and when glossed up, and weathered, tone to match photo's I've referred to. Much paint was messed about in trying to get a shade right that I thought might be right. Could still be wrong, mind, and would happily admit it. 

The other shades shown are bottom left a CIE green (I think, could be ammonia frames too) , and right, an RPSI Green to match the MK2 coaches and bachmann yank ones. R

 

Edit - Would it be possible there are two Eau-de-Nil  shades to match each period of CIE green @jhb171achill

DSC_0154.JPG

Interesting......  firstly, the same EDN for both green periods, as the transfers didn't change for numerals etc. 

Above, the green paint on the coach, to be honest, isn't quite right for the lighter shade - from viewing on a computer it seems almost as if it has an "olivey green" shade in it. somewhere. The open pots, though - left hand about the right darkness but a bit yellowy. the pot on the right more like it but a bit dark.

We're getting there, folks! A valuable exercise, though it's bound to drive some readers mad!  :-)

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, murrayec said:

Hi Guys

The plot thickens

I contacted my excellent railway historical source to see if he could shed some light on this subject, amazingly he has a GUARD sign which he photographed and sent me, I adjusted the levels and pasted in the colour references we have been discussing and sent him the image, he and an assistant have viewed the image with the board in his fist and conclude that 216 is the closest match

The transfer is an original CIÉ 1950s
The paint green came from carriage shop Inchicore  by Cyril Fry. 
The board is foam board nó undercoat two coats of paint not varnished. 
The transfer was beginning to perish but not "yellowed" Transfer is not sealed. 
5a9973a88438d_CIEGuardSign-00IMG_20180302_142251.jpg.bef88602122c3cca0b9b757ade85b1fd.jpg 
 
5a9973a9b325e_EauDeNilSample-00IMG_20180302_142255.jpg.3ed46140a1cf9a1fce961b435ffffa0a.jpg
 
They are going to view it again on different screens and see if they have the same opinion on 216 and come back to me.
I have also discussed meeting up with him and going to a paint supply system to get an exact reference match and some paint to do a test
 
What a nice thing to have
 
I shall report back
 
Eoin
 

From the above, clearly one might get the exact EDN shade by one part 14E50 and two parts 216. The RAL 6021 is the closest of all of them, by far, without alteration.

Edited by jhb171achill
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, popeye said:

I have mixed some paint for EDN and have painted the stripes on a coach.

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

003.JPG

002.JPG

I think that EDN looks pretty good too, what was the mix?

The transfers match well too, if you painted over them it's very neatly done.

Re the 'Guard' image - I agree with Achill, the 6021 looks closest, neat 216 looks a bit dark

Again, sorry to be repetitive, I don't think one should be too hung up about official specifications, what a colour looks like in service on an actual coach at some distance is the main thing surely. The 'Quiet Man' EDN looks a good deal lighter than 216, or is that my eyes, or 1950's colour film?

Edited by johnminnitt

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Every picture you look at will be different so you have to pick an average that you are happy with.

The quiet man pic's must be 50 or 60 years old so they do look dull and i would not go by that.

for my colour mix i used light oak No 71 and my own mix of green similar to emerald green.

I did paint the transfers but just one coat as a test, it took 2 hours just to do one side.

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8 hours ago, johnminnitt said:

This is just a test to see what you think, i can adjust it later.

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

Exactly..... all of us would need to be looking at the real thing in daylight, and a model, not a computer screen!

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Hi Guys

I got this message back from my railway historical source;-

"Looks good to me. Sticking to what I said after looking at different screen it's a close as feasible to the real thing.

Fourm post can be updated  216 is the best option its the closest"
 
Eoin

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On 02/03/2018 at 9:08 PM, popeye said:

Also the photo looks very different from the model i painted so it's by no means exact.

 

 

 

Hi popeye

The best way to take a photo is to take it in diffused daylight with a white background and a pure black object in the scene, the camera white balanced before you take the shot, then the levels can be adjusted using the black and white colours in the photo, once you have B&W levels set correctly one has the best colour representation on screen for that situation.

Most cameras and phones now have facility for white balancing- this is done just before taking the photo in the same environment you want to take the picture, done with a white sheet of paper held arms length away from the lens, then balance the camera, then take the shot of the model.

The GUARD sign photo was taken like this- daylight, white snow background, and black cover book in the shot, then the levels of the photo were adjusted in photoshop (most decent bitmap graphic editors have this facility) and then the green background colour was assessed on screen with the board in the fist to see if it gave a good rep.....

When comparing colours in an image its best to do it in the bitmap graphics editor- ie, photoshop, where one can see the values of RGB, or whatever the colour format your working with, and also in greyscale! our eye perceives tones of grey far better than colour- graphics editors have all these facilities for proofing images....

Your photo of the model body you painted seems to be taken indoors under artificial light with a cream background- the light and background will effect the way the camera sees the colours of the model and that is why the photo looks different to the real thing.....

Eoin

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11 hours ago, murrayec said:

Hi popeye

The best way to take a photo is to take it in diffused daylight with a white background and a pure black object in the scene, the camera white balanced before you take the shot, then the levels can be adjusted using the black and white colours in the photo, once you have B&W levels set correctly one has the best colour representation on screen for that situation.

Most cameras and phones now have facility for white balancing- this is done just before taking the photo in the same environment you want to take the picture, done with a white sheet of paper held arms length away from the lens, then balance the camera, then take the shot of the model.

The GUARD sign photo was taken like this- daylight, white snow background, and black cover book in the shot, then the levels of the photo were adjusted in photoshop (most decent bitmap graphic editors have this facility) and then the green background colour was assessed on screen with the board in the fist to see if it gave a good rep.....

When comparing colours in an image its best to do it in the bitmap graphics editor- ie, photoshop, where one can see the values of RGB, or whatever the colour format your working with, and also in greyscale! our eye perceives tones of grey far better than colour- graphics editors have all these facilities for proofing images....

Your photo of the model body you painted seems to be taken indoors under artificial light with a cream background- the light and background will effect the way the camera sees the colours of the model and that is why the photo looks different to the real thing.....

Eoin

Thanks, i know how to balance the white.

It was photographed in fluorescent light which is soft and the camera set for this, then it can be adjusted on the computer.

The problem i have is a very bad screen, cheap and nasty. The picture on the camera screen looks fine.

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