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Luas Breakdown

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Yes only in Ireland do we put a bus on rails on the surface blocking the streets instead of an under ground.  At least they seem to be getting that bit right with Metro.

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Very sad to read these two posts.

Personally, I think LUAS is super (a bit full, mind you - the perils of popularity?) and can't wait to have a ride on the former MGWR main line after the Broadstone stop.

Underground railways are all very well, but you see B-all. That's why I often opt for the bus in London and enjoy looking at the brilliant buildings. Dublin, likewise, isn't exactly short of them either.

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2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Very sad to read these two posts.

+1

Luas most definitely has its place as part of the public transport solution for Dublin. The fact issues persist that were supposed to be alleviated by other schemes which haven't been implemented (yet) should not be blamed on it. The streets are being clogged by the continuing high usage of cars for access to the city centre, not by the Luas.

4 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes only in Ireland do we put a bus on rails on the surface blocking the streets instead of an under ground.

I'll let the following emoticon embody my reaction to this comment: :facepalm:

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I dislike the unnatural distance between the rails, otherwise it seems OK.

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Dublin is built on a great big lump of granite. Not easy to core through. 

Cork is sandy, so too expensive to underpin. 

Limerick is the only place suited for an underground, but then you'd miss out on the most preserved, and at times beautiful, georgian city in Ireland... 

(slightly biased, I know :p) 

If anyone had to travel on the 77a, like something outta Blazing Saddles, to Tallaght before it was introduced, they'd get on bended knee for the luas. 

Looks, aesthetics, punctuality, has it all, and plenty options for northsiders to go southbound and fill the reader's letters section of the Oirish Toimes. 

No downside at all! 😆 

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I'd have to disagree with the first 2 posts myself and in all honesty I'm not surprised. We had the kids in Dublin for a few nights a while ago and my daughter asked could we go out to the Dundrum center for a few hours. We got on the Luas at Stephens Green and I really enjoyed the journey and saw parts of Dublin I hadn't seen before.

Rich,

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Glenderg wrote:

Dublin is built on a great big lump of granite. Not easy to core through. 

Cork is sandy, so too expensive to underpin. 

Limerick is the only place suited for an underground, but then you'd miss out on the most preserved, and at times beautiful, georgian city in Ireland...

I don't have Richie's knowledge of geology, but for enthusiasts of underground railways, may I commend a track by The Johnstons "Tunnel Tigers" which is all about decent Irish lads "Digging a Tunnel through the London Clay". Of course, it was recorded before most of you were born and even I, who lived through the Sixties, only bought the CD about a month ago. Recommended. 

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Ok, flame throwers down, let me clarify where I was coming from.  I encounter the Luas both driving a car and on board.  I like it for the routes that suit me, but in the city sections it is so slow compared to the London underground (yes I know Dublin is tiny by comparison). Sure I get it would obviously have been too expensive to put the whole thing under ground, but at least the city centre sections could have been placed under the surface or raised.  The traffic flow maths doesn't seem to stack up running them on the surface of the city centre (i.e. recent traffic interaction problems).  In relation to boring and granite issues I'd be interested in Richie's view of the revised underground Metro plans.  Bare in mind also over the next 15 years predominant personal road vehicles may probably be dominated by EVs reducing both air and noise pollution. Not sure if or when HGVs may ever become electric. So my gripe was the operation of the Luas in the city centre sections.  With Metro the planers have seen fit to go underground in the city.  

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The  LUAS is the poor man's metro . Dublin needs a proper underground railway . The port tunnel shows there would be no problem building it. 

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Posted (edited)

Hi Guys

The Luas has been an incredible addition for the commuter, we are just fudies because we like real trains! and it's lack of good authority road management and cars that cause all the trouble......

Back in the 70's the Dublin Development Plan had the underground planned, it was indicated on the development maps including locations of stations n all- the powers that came along after decided to abandon the plan on the basis of the disruption to the city while building it!- decent tunnelling machines had not been invented then...

Eoin

Edited by murrayec
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38 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

I think I will stick with the DART......

 

Didn't people bash the Dart before it was launched?

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58 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

I think I will stick with the DART......

Great photos Wrennie

People did bash the DART at first, even Mr Fitzgerald who brought it in was afraid of it's first run and stayed away, ever the opportunist Mr H (cant bring myself to say his full name...) went on the first run and stole the credit.... after it came in the bashing was in regard to, that there was not enough of them and those stupid folding seats were silly! it transformed commuting in and out of the city... the Luas is doing the same

Eoin

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1 hour ago, WRENNEIRE said:

5aa911e007212_NPDart4.thumb.jpg.8d07965a1f9004d17885655d26208bd0.jpg

Wow what a fantastic photo scene.  A proper train with an engine up front pulling carriages and properly punctuated by a brake van.

32 minutes ago, skinner75 said:

Didn't people bash the Dart before it was launched?

Some time in the late 70s my late father threw me a copy of the business plan for the Dart and the only comment I remember him utter was half its market hinterland was occupied by fish rather than commuters, but I remember him being for it despite that. He was keen on exploring the viability of reopening the Harcourt street line.

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8 minutes ago, murrayec said:

It transformed commuting in and out of the city... the Luas is doing the same

I agree, just wish some of it was underground. :) 

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13 minutes ago, Noel said:

Wow what a fantastic photo scene.  A proper train with an engine up front pulling carriages and properly punctuated by a brake van.

It's a transition DART- used to train the drivers while they waited for motors and other stuff to be installed

Wrennie

Those 'Ribbons' draped on the side- to me they look like protection coverings falling off in the wind!

Eoin

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9 minutes ago, murrayec said:

It's a transition DART- used to train the drivers while they waited for motors and other stuff to be installed

Wrennie

Those 'Ribbons' draped on the side- to me they look like protection coverings falling off in the wind!

Interesting. Around 1983 a pal of mine was then an engineer with CIE and he kindly gave me a tour of the Connolly control room for both the Dart and mainline rail, including the relay room for the Dart and the CCTV room for the dart crossings. Then he took me for a cab ride on a passing Dart explaining with the driver all the then state of the art gubbins they had. I remember being mightily impressed at the time. He explained to me that each coach weighed itself which was used amongst other inputs to calculate maximum speeds and braking distances required. The driver demonstrated the set refusing to exceed the speed limit for a particular section of track that was on based on weight, incline, temperature, track curve, and factors like leaves and ice, etc. The level of automation and fail safes for 1983 was impressive. Less impressive were the rolls of paper spewing out of the machine counting axles and measuring axle box temperature on the main line rail.  It looked like the output from a seismometer.

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Boring tunnels beneath the city centre for light rail would be a ridiculous waste of money and resources. Numerous European cities have light rail running through their city centres, so it's not an "only in Ireland" thing either. Any underground network should be built to heavy rail standards to maximise capacity and help get more cars off the streets (which are the actual cause of congestion - not the Luas. The plan for the College Green Plaza which would see that area and much of Dame Street being pedestrianised will also help free-up the cross-city Luas route). As I said above, the Luas is part of a multi-faceted solution to Dublin's public transport problems, not the silver bullet, and it's taking heat here undeservedly when the microscope should be on all the messing that has surrounded Dart Underground and Metro North.

 

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23 hours ago, Noel said:

Yes only in Ireland do we put a bus on rails on the surface blocking the streets instead of an under ground.  At least they seem to be getting that bit right with Metro.

I started this by saying I never liked the LUAS  & the more streets I as a Tax paying motorist is no longer allowed to drive on just confirms my utter dislike for them & I have to ask who ever the engineering genius! or dare I say geniuses !!! were that decided to rule out underground just confirms my thoughts of utter G.@.@.@.@.@.@.@s, they have effectely banned me & many others from driving into our Capitol city...rant over,

BTB

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1 hour ago, burnthebox said:

I started this by saying I never liked the LUAS  & the more streets I as a Tax paying motorist is no longer allowed to drive on just confirms my utter dislike for them & I have to ask who ever the engineering genius! or dare I say geniuses !!! were that decided to rule out underground just confirms my thoughts of utter G.@.@.@.@.@.@.@s, they have effectely banned me & many others from driving into our Capitol city...rant over,

BTB

As a tax-paying motorist, the sooner cars are eradicated from Dublin city centre, the better. It's still a long way off, but with a proper integrated public transport system, there'd be absolutely no need for anyone to drive a car anywhere near the area.

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1 hour ago, Garfield said:

 with a proper integrated public transport system, 

Well, I'm not holding my breath on that one,.... .the geniuses reign on...!!!

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Genuine question burnthebox - what's the solution? There's a couple of thousand people each day that use Heuston LUAS alone

Incidently, there is no such thing as a "double length" tram. 5028 is 55m, 5007 is 43.5m. The shortest original trams (Red Line only) were 30m

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1 hour ago, burnthebox said:

Well, I'm not holding my breath on that one,.... .the geniuses reign on...!!!

You're avoiding the main thrust of the argument and instead cherry-picking soundbites so you can keep repeating your complaint.

Surely you can comprehend that the Luas is an integral component of a developing integrated public transport network for the city? Or are you trolling?  

I'd like to echo hurricanemk1c's question above - what would your solution be?

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3 hours ago, Garfield said:

You're avoiding the main thrust of the argument and instead cherry-picking soundbites so you can keep repeating your complaint.

Surely you can comprehend that the Luas is an integral component of a developing integrated public transport network for the city? Or are you trolling?  

I'd like to echo hurricanemk1c's question above - what would your solution be?

Excellent post Pat. As for the trolling it's always the same two time and again. There is little sense to what is repeated repetitively. It's sad really.

Rich,

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3 hours ago, Garfield said:

You're avoiding the main thrust of the argument and instead cherry-picking soundbites so you can keep repeating your complaint.

Surely you can comprehend that the Luas is an integral component of a developing integrated public transport network for the city? Or are you trolling?  

I'd like to echo hurricanemk1c's question above - what would your solution be?

I thought the thrust of this discussion was about the LUAS, or was it more to the point of the desaterious failures because the brains never properly mapped out the system & its desaterious effect on Dublin city & its thousands of car owners.  Recent events prove just that ....but maybe it will work out as part of a transport system, but like I said, I'm not holding my breath....!!

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Paul, being wheelchair bound and dependant on your car puts a different slant on this argument, most of us have enough trouble navigating through the city while having all our faculties but the added pressure of your chair is something I could not imagine. How friendly the LUAS is I do not know but from my own experience the travellers on them seem only interested in themselves, mothers with prams and young children do not seem to get any handouts from them and I imagine people like yourself are in the same boat. 

In defence of the LUAS though the idea of it is fantastic, it will take some time to iron out the mistakes that have been made and hopefully then we may have a light rail system to be proud of?

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There are underground stations in London where it is possible to get off the train, run up the stairs, along the street to the next station, down the stairs and get back into the same train.

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An interesting topic for IRM.  I have always been a supporter of Luas and use it as often as I can.  There have been breakdowns this week and service on the Green line has become unreliable compared to how it was in previous years. Are the trams now ageing or just suffering from the more intensive use now being expected of them? I

It does now seem that the northward extension through the city has caused significant problems for buses in particular. I don't think the plan was for an improved Luas to discommode other public transport users.

Luas is not a bus but neither is it a train.  The Green line was designed with heavy rail in mind from Charlemont south.  This capability, together with an underground section in the CC, should have been implemented rather than the Luas extension.  We need a Metro as it is now obvious that city roads cannot cope with the number of people travelling.  However a light rail Metro is not the answer. 

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I rarely use the Luas myself but it's an excellent service, and if it reduces congestion in the city then more power to it. But until the public transport system is of an appropriate standard I think the removal of cars from the city is a pipe dream at the moment and not something I'd like to see to be honest. There's a small percentage who will want/need to drive there own cars for work or whatever purposes.

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53 minutes ago, Tarabuses said:

Luas is not a bus but neither is it a train.  The Green line was designed with heavy rail in mind from Charlemont south.  This capability, together with an underground section in the CC, should have been implemented rather than the Luas extension.  We need a Metro as it is now obvious that city roads cannot cope with the number of people travelling.  However a light rail Metro is not the answer. 

Couldn't agree more.

We can mess about with traffic lanes and bus lanes until the surface is covered with white lines, in and out of tram tracks, but the amount of land on the surface will remain the same while the population and economy improve.

Sooner or later, it HAS to go underground. There's no more room on the surface for anything, so trying to "revolutionise", "improve", alter or rearrange private and / or public transport becomes progressively more expensive and less effective. It's like trying to rearrange dirt on something instead of cleaning it.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

 

Paul, being wheelchair bound and dependant on your car "

Dave my lad, this has nothing whatsoever to do with Wheelcairs, walking or not walking.  Remember the brains that built the M50 & then decided, oh we should have had  another lane..!!!  so let's build one now, !! The same brains built the LUAS Red line & a Green, line, & then decided oh, we should have connected them..!! let's do that now !!!  The bottom line is the LUAS should have been built underground, the Port Tunnell is an example of how things operate / work when the correct planning is put in place, !  & yes I've been in a LUAS, once !!! & no thank you, I won't be on any more.  As I said, the brains of this country are to blame, but that kind of thing dos'nt happen here. Forward thinking, forget it !!!

BTB

Edited by burnthebox

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Motorway planning in these islands is often 'entertaining' for the motorist. I live next to the M6, which is currently being turned into a "Smart Motorway"* - going from three lanes to four, by having people drive on the hard shoulder. Cars do break down a lot less these days, but it's a most unpleasant and dangerous experience when they do in those circumstances. If there is a big incident, the entire motorway is blocked, with no 'free lane' for emergency use.

And there was the spur for the M54, which was only used by bin lorries going to the tip for the first ten years.

And anybody who used the M5 in the '70s and '80s, when they spent a decade turning it from two lanes into three, may, like me, still have the habit of using the 'old road' as a preference.

And the continuous widening of the M25.

And using the M2 as a lorry park.

Etc...

 

* The official terminology, not what I would call it.

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Yes, it's the planning process and long term vision that is the issue. Irish politicians (north and south) are a shower of self serving gombeen men, without the education, let alone the will, to plan anything sensibly; let alone again to do so with any sort of long term strategy in mind. The Port Tunnel and Ardnacrusha Dam are about the lot!

We can all, politicians included, witter on interminably about preference for this, that or the other; rearranging tram lines, bus lanes, private car routes, electric car charging points, blah blah blah zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. However, a brain-dead dung beetle would be able to grasp a solitary important truth: the amount of land available for anything from bus lanes to tooth fairies is finite, and already heavily saturated. The only way to actually increase capacity to get people from A to B in a large and crowded city is to do what other cities do. Take Vienna. It is marginally larger than Dublin, but has a very much larger amount of traffic everywhere as it is a an important international crossroads. Traffic moves freely. Virtually every street in the city has trams, with a network of bewildering array, but more importantly, there are eight separate underground lines operating almost 24 hours a day with in some cases four or five minute frequencies. There's the clue: underground.

Dublin's railways were constructed by commercial companies so the imperatives then, in planning them, were utterly different from now. Thus, where a railway route suits modern traffic, it's an accidental benefit rather than anything relating to deliberate good planning. Docklands to anywhere is crass. Connolly and Heuston operate to near capacity. Harcourt Street, even if still open, would be no good as a final terminus. 

Buses are saturated, so are the city centre trams. Closing the entire city centre to road traffic is not practical. Some years ago, Dublin Bus reorganised itself so that the quays were not clogged with bus termini - that was a good move.

What's past is past, and good riddance; what's future MUST be underground railways. Yes, it'll cost a fortune, especially when billions are squandered on endless consultants and appeals. CPOs must be handed out all over the place where necessary once and for all, and I would say the northside needs probably three routes; one towards the Coolock / Baldoyle / Airport / Swords area - and that, with an extremely regular frequency. Another via a different route to the Broombridge LUAS somewhere in the general area of Finglas / Clonee, and perhaps curving back to Blanchardstown, interconnecting with one of a number of west-side routes to serve Ashtown / Blanch / Castleknock  / Clonsilla / Clondalkin - maybe even to Lucan. Other underground routes need to serve Donnybrook / Rathmines / Ranelagh / Rathgar / Terenure / Rathfarnham / Kiltipper / Knocklyon / Tallaght areas. The LUAS and DART should suffice for south east Dublin.

By my estimation, you're looking at maybe an absolute minimum of five routes there, possibly six or seven. There would need to be a central underground station, maybe under St Stephen's Green, but with connections to Heuston, Connolly and Pearse stations, Busaras and the airport.

Another thing that could be done is to get rid of Dublin port, sell off all that land, and shift the entire port operations to somewhere like Mornington outside Drogheda. 

No, I know, there's not a snowball's chance in hell of this happening. But otherwise, we will all end up in forty years time going round and round and round and round and round in the same discussion....

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