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murrayec

CIE Laminate Coaches - Worsley Works - ECMbuild in 4mm

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Hi

I'm building two Worsley Works scratch aid CIE Laminate Coaches for a chap- a Break and a Standard.

Here is the build on the break coach so far;-

653934365_WWCB-01IMAG4214.jpg.e7f2252cf1175c644ce9e4b4bb7aaa29.jpg

The WW Kit- ends, sides & chassis, the rest you got to come up with yourself.

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The ends were set up with a template drawing to drill holes for the roof access handrail and the home spun brass steps to be soldered on.

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All soldered on and cleaned up, test fitting the Keen LMS corridor connectors.

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MJT 8'6"rigid frame coach bogies, MJT NEM 362 coupling box, MJT wheel bearings and 12.6mm wheel sets coming together.

44970831_WWCB-05IMAG4220.jpg.8a02c6c0a238e36120c99b6c0627579e.jpg

MJT BR 8'6" Commonwealth bogie sides.

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Bogies rolling, bolsters ready to go onto the chassis, need to make parts to fit the sides on which will push them out to Irish gauge!

Edited by murrayec
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The chassis parts were cleaned up and marked out for the bolsters, door location, and then soldered up;-209659467_WWCB-07IMAG4222.jpg.610c5bebd2c308fbf495f4eefca5ceea.jpg

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I added in cross braces to the truss and the boxes had to be trimmed down to fit between the floor and the truss, I also reinforced the slots left in the chassis from folding down the truss by soldering in scrap brass.

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These are the body fixing brackets with soldered M2 nuts, they will be soldered to the coach ends.

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The sides were removed and cleaned up;-

1027920374_WWCB-14IMAG4232.jpg.88d2ad1d1276b4c89d0444b2aaaab075.jpg

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Part of the sprue was retained at the break compartment doors, this was reinforced with a dab of solder.1269540118_WWCB-19IMAG4234.jpg.a80bf1dc326cf99ca318064788b7f613.jpg

1076370541_WWCB-20IMAG4235.jpg.2be14b7443ab78dedda5764294515552.jpg

The side tumble-home was worked out from my template drawing and the sides jigged up for folding

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One side done, looks good!

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Both sides done, even better!

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Break compartment doors required the reveals to take the shape of the sides, out with the piercing saw.

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Reveals folded, not shown her but the door head was folded out also.

1983704972_WWCB-18IMAG4242.jpg.765ade2d7e13ca1d6e166fc728d75d87.jpg

And soldered in.

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The roofs and parts were CNC cut for both coaches in .25mm brass sheet;-525983908_WWCB-24IMAG4244.jpg.fb12d4e3e6be946cd0eac1655ed12c5b.jpg

Roofs, coach partitions, some roof spars to aid fixing the sides and roof, roof steps, door foot steps, and bogie out riggers for the bogie sides.

187517979_WWCB-25IMAG4246.jpg.e1f80ef08c0fbc230675e3e50e9f35b8.jpg

Rolling the roof on mouse mats and using a strip of ply to apply pressure in the centre of the bar- lots of annealing here!1722404610_WWCB-26IMAG4248.jpg.b88455173610f717c2c3be785b27a225.jpg

835239111_WWCB-27IMAG4247.jpg.0f4d5eebd1d009a02038b4b64ad58b73.jpg

First curve done.

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Jigging up for the turn down curve, my drawing template was used again to position the brass!!

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And done, annealing the brass for each side really helps.

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Partitions and bogie riggers cleaned up and ready.....

Till next time

Eoin

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Interesting stuff.

Nice to see a tutorial on assembling the under rated Worsley Works Laminate coaches.

Is your clamping/bending jig available from an engineering suppliers or of your own design?

I use similar techniques for forming roofs and curves in metal, though the jigs are a bit on the crude side

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Jealous!! All that equipment and, more importantly, the ability to use it.

I've built four Worsley Work coaches at this stage; not easy work. 

I'm currently building a set of the MJT rigid frame bogies. Maybe I'm thick but I'm struggling to get them done. Your photos will be very useful.

Cheers,

Glover

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Hi John

It's from the Midland Railway Centre DT12 & RFA12,  www.midrailcentre.com

it's a few bob but after looking at making my own I felt it was worth the investment and save me time!

If thinking of a purchase I recommend going for the extra set of clamps, it comes with 4 but with the 4mm rolling bar it's not enough! the bar was flexing and getting pushed back so I had to add two extra clamps to hold it.

Eoin

Edited by murrayec
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24 minutes ago, Glover said:

I'm currently building a set of the MJT rigid frame bogies. - but struggling to get them done. Your photos will be very useful.

Hi Glover

If you need more info on doing them let me know and I can post some helpful tips?

Eoin

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53 minutes ago, murrayec said:

Hi John

It's from the Midland Railway Centre DT12 & RFA12,  www.midrailcentre.com

it's a few bob but after looking at making my own I felt it was worth the investment and save me time!

If thinking of a purchase I recommend going for the extra set of clamps, it comes with 4 but with the 4mm rolling bar it's not enough! the bar was flexing and getting pushed back so I had to add two extra clamps to hold it.

Eoin

Excellent and just in time for Christmas. Their 42' turntable is mighty tempting http://www.midrailcentre.com/4mm-scale-00-em-p4

Edited by Mayner
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Impressive to see one of the very few successful ‘brass masters’ achieve such excellent results. Respect. 👍

Thanks for posting such a detailed photo log. As ever, superb. 

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Eoin, a terrific thread which will hopefully encourage some younger modellers to "have a go" at the harder stuff.

More power to your elbow with it.

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2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

. . . encourage some younger modellers to "have a go" at the harder stuff.

Quite the opposite personally, it confirms my decision to avoid the challenges of brass but instead commission work from brass maestros who have both the skills, experience and toolset to produce quality results like Eoin's superb work. And yes it is a terrific thread. :) 

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I tried a brass kit years and years ago, when dexterity and eyesight were a lot better than now. I made a pig’s ear of it, so for me it’s a “brassmaster” every time.

I still would encourage those of tenderer years to give it a go, however, but on something cheap and simple! The satisfaction gained from completing such a thing would be worth the hours put it.

Edited by jhb171achill
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Many thanks for your kind offer of assistance Eoin.

I think I'm getting there: trial and a lot of errors!

I'm scratchbuilding ( in plastic) a GNR J4 brake/compo for my reproduction of the Bundoran Express. When I contacted Worsley Works, Allan advised me that this particular coach wasn't available (so, I bought two other GNR coaches from him; see the most recent entries in Glovers Workbench, in the Workbench section).

I'm using the MJT 8' Fox bogie sides, as they appear to be the closest approximation to at least some of the Fox bogies used by the GNR.

To those intimidated by brass (and that most certainly includes me!), you might want to look at my workbench. I won't bring down the tone of this thread by talking about my agricultural methods.....

Again, many thanks.

Glover

image.jpeg

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Top job murrayec, your tutorial  explaines it all. Please keep posting ;my  SSM Bandon tank always gives me pleasure.

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Eoin, I hope that you don't mind me bringing this excellent thread to the attention of Richard McLachlan, who has built well over a hundred coaches in brass. He has a weakness, of course - they're mainly North Eastern Railway!

To say he was impressed - well, read his own words -

"Eoin's post is very detailed. He is doing a really good job.

"I like his clamping/bending thing so have ordered one because the price is very reasonable, especially the loose clamps. I have made lots of smaller clamping things and if this one is any good, I will buy more of the loose clamps in future rather than make my own because they are a fiver for 2. Lots of jobs get easier with a custom clamping jig.
 
"The roof is seriously heavy engineering - he cuts it out with a portal milling machine along with a load of extra parts. He had to design the artwork, then get the machine to cut it out. Big investment and serious skill or a lot of practice. Rolling the roof seemed to be hard work for him. I think he is using fairly hard brass (as used by WW for the sides of flush coaches). Over the years I have bought a ton of lovely soft and very flat brass in Germany (also a lot cheaper than anywhere I can find in the UK) which requires very little effort to roll or curve. Interesting.
 
"Delighted that he is using simple rigid bogies. Even in P4 they work better than any of the so-called better designs. I will look into his supplier of corridor connections - I have various etched brass ones and they are generally a pain because they are too flimsy - bits come off or bend within hours of building the thing.
 
He clearly knows what he is doing - one of the few. I might not choose to do everything exactly as he has done because I have different methods that work better for me and the tools I have available, but it's all better than most of what gets printed in MRJ. A good chap - or should that be 'a grand fella'."
 
"Better than most of what gets printed in Model Railway Journal" - can't be bad, eh?
 
I'm sure he'd share info on where he gets his "lovely soft and very flat brass" from. Not exactly technical language for someone with a Masater's Degree in Engineering?
 
 
 
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6 hours ago, Glover said:

"Many thanks for your kind offer of assistance Eoin.

I think I'm getting there: trial and a lot of errors!

Again, many thanks."

Glover

Hi Glover

Your getting on fine,

just one thing I see in the photo- does the snap button work with the way you have stuck it under the rocker? the male bit should be fixed to the bolster pointing downwards and the female to the top of the rocker facing up.....

Eoin

 

5 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

Great thread , super job  would you make the roof fret available to the rest of us ?

Hi fl

Yes all the stuff I make is available, pm me

Eoin

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1 hour ago, murrayec said:

Hi Glover

Your getting on fine,

just one thing I see in the photo- does the snap button work with the way you have stuck it under the rocker? the male bit should be fixed to the bolster pointing downwards and the female to the top of the rocker facing up.....

Eoin

 

Hi fl

Yes all the stuff I make is available, pm me

Eoin

As Capt Mannering would say, ' I wondered who would be the first to spot that'.

You are right. I'm reasonably good on the male:female bit; it's just the rockers, bolsters and upside down bits that confuse me!

I'm actually working on Plan B but don't wait up.

Many thanks,

Glover

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2 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

" I'm sure he'd share info on where he gets his "lovely soft and very flat brass" from. "

Hi Leslie

A source for brass would be good to know and would be appreciated

I'm using shim brass from Healy Metals, it's hard and needs annealing to work it for curves but it's the cheapest way to buy sub 1mm brass. I have also got it from Eileens but again its hard and not flat- it comes off a roll and when annealing it wobbles all over the place, I gave that up....

Thanks

Eoin

 

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While working on the bogie sides last week I was getting very irritated working with the BR Commonwealth sides! Fortunately while talking to my friendly railway historian and collector of all handy stuff for the modeller, he announced a laminate drawing had come across his desk, including a sketch of the bogie sides- excellent. So I 'bit the bogie', so to speak, and decided to change tack and develop up CIE Commonwealth sides, a scan was duly and gratefully received, imported into Autocad, traced, adjusted and prepared to CNC out two sets of parts to make patterns to make moulds from;-

.5mm brass for the main frame bits.

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.23mm brass for the smaller items and the brackets for the suspension torsion bar. Those little bits came free from the tabs in the sheet- all were found!

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All the bits, I'm going to use M2 machine screws to make the suspension springs with a bit of 2.4mm copper pipe to mount them in and various sizes of brass pipe for the shock. The shock and torsion bar will be installed after the sides are cast- mmmh! I hope?

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After de-burring the .5mm sheet I set about soldering in .35mm PB wire to create bolt heads on the axle boxes, this was done on the back of the sheet held down on two strips of .23mm brass so the wire would protrude out the front.

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Nice little bolt heads after cleaning up the front.

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I then set about soldering the main structure together, there are 3 laminates in this construction and I left the middle one attached to the sprue to hold it better and then bits were clamped in the jig and sweat soldered on- top done first.

1258175386_CB-07IMAG4276.jpg.1cfe5e14abbaf8948d7e09091ea5c868.jpg 

Gave up at this point this evening while the going was good......

Eoin

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That was the other thing about the BR sides- they only came in 8'6'' from Dart Castings, and I built the bogies in 8'6'',  so now I'll have to change them also- they are on order....

Eoin

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Merciful hour!! Quality workmanship.

I was 'ticked off' on this forum for using BR Commonwealth bogies; I didn't know the CIE ones were different to BR.

Westhy/Studio Scale Models has mentioned on at least two occasions that he was planning to do a casting of the CIE version but I reckon it's still on his 'to-do' list.

Glover

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1 hour ago, Glover said:

Merciful hour!! Quality workmanship.

I was 'ticked off' on this forum for using BR Commonwealth bogies; I didn't know the CIE ones were different to BR.

Westhy/Studio Scale Models has mentioned on at least two occasions that he was planning to do a casting of the CIE version but I reckon it's still on his 'to-do' list.

Glover

 

CIE used BR style Commonwealth bogies with 8'6" wb  under a small number of Inchacore designed & built coaches in the early 1960s. No one produces a kit or a RTR model for these coaches which had a different end profile to the Laminate stock.

The earlier Commonwealth bogies used under Laminates, Parkroyals and some MK2 Bredin coaches had an 8' wheelbase. The other major difference between Irish & BR practice was that CIE used 3' diameter wheels with commonwealth bogies while British Railways used 3'6" which can affect the ride height if you plonk a Park Royal or Laminate on Bachmann bogies.

Eoin's bogies remind me of my 1st visit to Inchacore in the late 1970s, where CIE were flame cutting replacement drop equalisers (flat lower part) for Commonwealth bogies. 

I formed the roofs for the JM Design vans in a similar manner to Eoin using a commercial photo engraver rather than CNC milling to form the weather strips and cantrail. 

I pre-form the roofs using a G.W.Models Rolling Mill and less sophisticated version of Eoin's clamping and bending jig

Eoin

I think you should pass this article and your photos to Alan Doherty and New Irish Lines it definitely surpasses my article on assembling Worsley Works Coaches and might motivate Alan to produced an etched roof for his Laminates & ParkRoyals

 

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Thanks all for likes and coments

John

CNC'ing parts is OK for one or two off items, but etching would be far quicker for batch runs like your kits

Yes, I must send a link to Alan Doherty and NIL and have a chat

 

The second bogie with its detail soldered on and cleaned up while in the sprue64353027_CB-08IMAG4278.jpg.1ecaaa4c2b0a394cb8d8d9810a42d802.jpg.

Now the frames are ready to take the third laminate which is sweat soldered on the back1632762864_CB-09IMAG4279.jpg.3a207be5e77678ad2cf58bfa2c41593e.jpg

Soldered on and cleaned up, the soldering was done with the detail face up and the 3rd laminate frame clamped under, this prevents gravity making the detail parts fall off when the heat gets going- just one problem, one of the axle box bolts boiled up in the solder and popped out and stuck to the face of the box. That had to be fixed!

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Preparing the 2.4mm copper tube to make the spring housings top and bottom of the spring, in this photo the pipe was filed down to size .8mm for the top housing and then sliced up .7mm deep on the lathe with a slitting saw.594904451_CB-11IMAG4285.jpg.36170ceb9dfdaeb0bbd1cd698ea177c0.jpg

All the parts for the spring system;- spring are made from M2 brass screws, spring housings from the above tube, shock mounting and torsion bar mountings folded and soldered from the .25mm brass sheet, and little brass keeper plates for under the axle boxes.803867115_CB-12IMAG4286.jpg.2a79f5733ebf87fb5da074d582bc1bfb.jpg

Soldering this lot is going to be fun......

You may be interested to know why I used brass for this?- when I made the Class A bogie side patterns out of plastic I had untold problems with the plastic deforming with the glues used- plastic weld being the worst! This led to problems making the moulds and then the WM casts came out slightly warped, nothing that a few drops onto the workbench couldn't sort but not great. Also as the patterns were plastic they wanted to float in the moulding chemicals while liquid, nothing worse than coming back to the mould several hours later thinking your done, to find the pattern came free and floated up to the surface while the chemicals set.

Eoin

 

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Soldered the bogie side pattern details today, here are a few photos of the completed work;-

1181523248_CB-13IMAG4375.jpg.f46949cbf95b6eff73357c33229debd4.jpg

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They need a bit more cleaning up, some filling and painting and we're ready to make the moulds. The shock and torsion bar will not be moulded, these will be installed after the frames  are cast for better detailing of the finished units.

The new 8' bogie units and other parts ordered from Dart Castings 3 weeks back have gone astray in the post! so procedures on the laminate kit build has ground to a halt......

Eoin

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On 12/2/2018 at 10:17 PM, murrayec said:

Soldered the bogie side pattern details today, here are a few photos of the completed work;-

1181523248_CB-13IMAG4375.jpg.f46949cbf95b6eff73357c33229debd4.jpg

1874347763_CB-14IMAG4376.jpg.1decfd7a8503955de9ee4c33f20225b6.jpg

837228605_CB-15IMAG4377.jpg.55ed925f66dfd6302c41f1893d027a5b.jpg

They need a bit more cleaning up, some filling and painting and we're ready to make the moulds. The shock and torsion bar will not be moulded, these will be installed after the frames  are cast for better detailing of the finished units.

Are these CNC Commonwealth frames available from you?

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17 hours ago, Horsetan said:

Are these CNC Commonwealth frames available from you?

 

17 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

I think these are the patterns for a white metal version 

Yes, these are patterns for making the moulds. Cast white metal sides will be available when the process is complete.

Eoin

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4 hours ago, murrayec said:

 

Yes, these are patterns for making the moulds. Cast white metal sides will be available when the process is complete.

Eoin

Excellent news. Thanks.

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