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WT CLASS 2-6-4T No. 4

Murphy Models 121

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2 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

I’m sorry, but the points are valid. Compare our product line in number to any of the big British retailers and it becomes clear how they can reduce sales margin across their inventory and make money whereas a smaller retailer like ourselves cannot. It’s very simple economics. Also, VAT is 3% lower and Sterling is in flux to say the least. 

However, I’m delighted to report that many people have supported us with 121 purchases and we are very thankful for that. At the end of the day; it’s your money, it’s your choice. I’m glad people choose us, as it shows we are doing something right and we can support Murphy Models AND put the money earned into tooling new Irish outline models 🙂. That’s a win for the hobby.

Cheers
 

Fran

 

 

A win for the hobby is dependent on sufficient volumes being sold and sticking to RRP is counterproductive in that regard.   My comments have not been directed at any retailer in particular and I don't think the comparison you are making with pure retailers that carry the overhead of operating physical shops  and holding large and wide ranging inventory is valid. 

Some of us are lucky enough to have a comprehensive model shop near us for everything we need from big ticket items down to the small specialist items but these shops are an endangered species. Paying a premium to support them is fine but won't be enough in the long term. They themselves need to take action to ensure survival and that means going head to head with the so called "boxshifters".   Why accept being undercut by a British retailer, why not at least match their prices and take them on in their own (UK) market across all products? 

I'll close off on that note

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2 minutes ago, Ironroad said:

A win for the hobby is dependent on sufficient volumes being sold and sticking to RRP is counterproductive in that regard.   My comments have not been directed at any retailer in particular and I don't think the comparison you are making with pure retailers that carry the overhead of operating physical shops  and holding large and wide ranging inventory is valid. 

Some of us are lucky enough to have a comprehensive model shop near us for everything we need from big ticket items down to the small specialist items but these shops are an endangered species. Paying a premium to support them is fine but won't be enough in the long term. They themselves need to take action to ensure survival and that means going head to head with the so called "boxshifters".   Why accept being undercut by a British retailer, why not at least match their prices and take them on in their own (UK) market across all products? 

I'll close off on that note

As I said, many people have supported us, so I don’t think it can be described as counterproductive. The walk in trade is much smaller in Ireland than the UK and potential customer bases are much smaller, so I do think my point is more than valid. The big British box shifters will always have more customers than an Irish retailer. then there is potential of selling at the shows, of which there are much more in the UK and many of the UK boxshifters sell at many times a year. We have very few shows in comparison here. It’s multifaceted and not simplistic, otherwise Irish retailers would be doing it.

End of the day the boxshifters carry huge product lines that would not be viable to carry here, and sales margin is across all of them. As I said, simple economics. I see the sales figures for an Irish outline model railway company in both manufacturing and retailing and a British one and there is simply no comparison in size and scale of the market.

Have a good night.

Cheers!

Fran


 


 

 

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2 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

I’m sorry, but the points are valid. Compare our product line in number to any of the big British retailers and it becomes clear how they can reduce sales margin across their inventory and make money whereas a smaller retailer like ourselves cannot. It’s very simple economics. Also, VAT is 3% lower and Sterling is in flux to say the least. 

However, I’m delighted to report that many people have supported us with 121 purchases and we are very thankful for that. At the end of the day; it’s your money, it’s your choice. I’m glad people choose us, as it shows we are doing something right and we can support Murphy Models AND put the money earned into tooling new Irish outline models 🙂. That’s a win for the hobby.

Cheers

Fran

 

 

Well said, thats exactly why I ordered from IRM 

 

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Post hard Brexit at the end of the year, lets see how many will still shop with Hattons, Rails etc when there will be a nice slice of customs duty applied on top of any reduced price the UK dealer may offer

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2 hours ago, skinner75 said:

Post hard Brexit at the end of the year, lets see how many will still shop with Hattons, Rails etc when there will be a nice slice of customs duty applied on top of any reduced price the UK dealer may offer

No customs Duty mate on Models, Just VAT upon importation to Europe so post Brexit if you buy in the UK there will be no UK Vat Applied so that will be applied upon importation here and maybe a Processing fee so if our friends in Revenue let one or two slip through then quids in.

In relation to the Irish RRP, The reason the price is lower in the UK is mostly due to wealth of competition, There is mostly none here so of course no discounting for the Punters, So Full Price please Sir for the time being until maybe year or so of them sitting on the shelves  when they drop 30 notes or such.

Irish people are used to paying over the odds at this stage, From Panadol Tablets to Cars but perhaps that.s for another forum altogether.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, RedRich said:

I couldn't care less what anyone else thinks about prudence or saving a few quid. I have always supported local or Irish traders and always will. I budget for what I need and if it keeps people in work then the ends justify the means for me.

Rich

What makes me laugh, and I've said this already, is that certain people are talking about saving a few quid in a situation where it's not a matter of the saving allowing you to buy a loco for yourself because you're cash strapped. It s a case of - "Oh look, I can buy 5 locos instead of 4!".

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Something else that occurred to me, and it may be perceived as a downside to the cheap price from Hattons...

How many 121's will get snapped up by Ebay Vultures in the UK and elsewhere? I can see them being bought in bulk at the cheaper price, hoarded until stocks run out, then sold off at crazy prices. Yes I know this happens all the time, but with the hype around these locos many will see an opportunity.....

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34 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

No customs Duty mate on Models, Just VAT upon importation to Europe so post Brexit if you buy in the UK there will be no UK Vat Applied so that will be applied upon importation here and maybe a Processing fee so if our friends in Revenue let one or two slip through then quids in.

In relation to the Irish RRP, The reason the price is lower in the UK is mostly due to wealth of competition, There is mostly none here so of course no discounting for the Punters, So Full Price please Sir for the time being until maybe year or so of them sitting on the shelves  when they drop 30 notes or such.

Irish people are used to paying over the odds at this stage, From Panadol Tablets to Cars but perhaps that.s for another forum altogether.

 

 

 

 

 

 

VAT or no VAT, the savings from Hattons aren't always so hot. I've ordered from them once in the past, purely because Mark's was out of stock and I couldn't wait. The order was for general stuff, track, underlay etc. no big ticket items. After shipping was all added in it was actually slightly more expensive!

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This is a first for me as this forum. Could we get back to the 121’s and not the shop debate. 
 

Buy where you want to buy. 
 

Also EBay prices are only what people want to pay. It’s not always about vultures.  I have sold items on eBay and made a profit and then spent the money on my model railway yet again. 
 

The 121’s look sublime. 

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18 minutes ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

This is a first for me as this forum. Could we get back to the 121’s and not the shop debate. 
 

Buy where you want to buy. 
 

Also EBay prices are only what people want to pay. It’s not always about vultures.  I have sold items on eBay and made a profit and then spent the money on my model railway yet again. 
 

The 121’s look sublime. 

I think you make a very good point, Gareth. 

There's lots of information above now so people can make the choice they want on how to spend their money. Let's leave the retail discussion at that. Let's focus on the 121 model itself from here on and enjoy this iconic loco getting ever closer to release!

Cheers!

Fran

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Is there any existing footage of CIE unboxing the 121's? I'm interested in how they got the loco out of the foam without damaging any of the fragile parts. Was the gantry crane used in conjunction with the plastic inlay? The Murphy Models site has this warning "Please ALWAYS use the internal wrap to remove AND replace the loco in its box. Damage caused as a result of rough/careless handling or body removal cannot be covered by warranty."

I was wondering if EMD had a similar proviso for the 121 locos supplied to CIE.

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24 minutes ago, spudfan said:

Is there any existing footage of CIE unboxing the 121's? I'm interested in how they got the loco out of the foam without damaging any of the fragile parts. Was the gantry crane used in conjunction with the plastic inlay? The Murphy Models site has this warning "Please ALWAYS use the internal wrap to remove AND replace the loco in its box. Damage caused as a result of rough/careless handling or body removal cannot be covered by warranty."

I was wondering if EMD had a similar proviso for the 121 locos supplied to CIE.

I dunno but I have an original box in my shed. Pretty big, it is....... used to park the car in it..........

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8 hours ago, spudfan said:

Is there any existing footage of CIE unboxing the 121's? I'm interested in how they got the loco out of the foam without damaging any of the fragile parts. Was the gantry crane used in conjunction with the plastic inlay? The Murphy Models site has this warning "Please ALWAYS use the internal wrap to remove AND replace the loco in its box. Damage caused as a result of rough/careless handling or body removal cannot be covered by warranty."

I was wondering if EMD had a similar proviso for the 121 locos supplied to CIE.

Looks like the crane is using a load spreader bar to unload the prototype:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nlireland/6633962763/

For the model, bottom of page 16 of this thread has an unboxing vid 😉

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Posted (edited)

I know the IE models are coming first but I have to say that my favorite will be the grey and yellow livery which I think might be in the second batch if I recall

Maybe posted on the site before ( I don't recall)  but to get back on track and whet the appetite, look at this lovely baby in 1961 at Athlone (one of Ernie's)

Athlone B126 7Jun61 img115

 

Edited by DiveController
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Posted (edited)

I do like the grey (or is it silver). If you look at the photo you cannot but smile at the belt and braces approach regarding the lighting arrangements. There are the marker lights ,the main very bright lights high up and in the corner platform side we have...an oil lamp! Will the B126 model have the oil lamp? If so will there be a switch underneath to light it up?:D

PS I never noticed the filler spout just before the high up hand rail before.

Edited by spudfan

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12 hours ago, spudfan said:

 

PS I never noticed the filler spout just before the high up hand rail before.

Either have I till now. It must have been phased out as the locos were overhauled? because it's not on any of the later livery locos.

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16 hours ago, spudfan said:

PS I never noticed the filler spout just before the high up hand rail before.

Sand box filler

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Thank you, doesn't seem to be in a very convenient position for topping up!

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18 hours ago, spudfan said:

I do like the grey (or is it silver). If you look at the photo you cannot but smile at the belt and braces approach regarding the lighting arrangements. There are the marker lights ,the main very bright lights high up and in the corner platform side we have...an oil lamp! Will the B126 model have the oil lamp? If so will there be a switch underneath to light it up?:D

PS I never noticed the filler spout just before the high up hand rail before.

Superb looking yoke.

No handrails along the side - that's the way they were delivered; these were only added during the "black'n'tan" period, thus it is possible to have a black'n'tan one with or without handrails.

Silver was used 1955-58 on new A, B101, G601, E401 and C classes; the B121s were a light grey rather than silver.

Here's a thought. Next person to have a pint with Jim Meade, suggest amending an existing 071 with "snails" and yellow bits!

5 hours ago, Railer said:

Either have I till now. It must have been phased out as the locos were overhauled? because it's not on any of the later livery locos.

Indeed - I wonder when they were removed from there? I never remember seeing them in real life on black & tan ones either.

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Posted (edited)
On 6/19/2020 at 2:12 AM, Railer said:

Either have I till now. It must have been phased out as the locos were overhauled? because it's not on any of the later livery locos.

The sand boxes seem to have been superfluous to Irish operations and were removed pretty quickly (albeit I don't know why they would NEED to remove them quickly per se)

B122 had lost the sand box fillers August 1962  & B121 by 1963 and some others including B134 for certain while still in grey & yellow livery, It was replaced by a small square blanking plate

Athenry B121 + TPO Jun63 img116

A little more delving into the BnT livery show that B130 and B127 retained them into the early seventies although harder to see on that livery then when  in the grey! B131 & 135 may also have retained them to 1969-1975 but the photos as less clear

B Class Loco at Ballina GN Dublin, Connolly B130 8sep70 s524

 

Edited by DiveController
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Posted (edited)

The CMEs office (60s & 70s) was opposed to using sand to improve adhesion with diesel locos, possibly fear to sand getting into the traction motors, excess wear on the final drive gears.  The Sulzers and Metrovicks were originally supplied with sandboxes.

EMD apparently strongly recommended fitting sanders to the 071 Class and sent photos of their locos working in the Saudi Desert to assure the CMEs office that sand getting into the traction motors was not a problem!

The Small Bo Bos and 071s suffered from wheel slip and adhesion problems, the B121s were not considered suitable for heavy loose coupled goods work due to limited braking power as they only had 2 brake cylinders per bogie, the 141s had better braking power but were considered to be light on their feet, the 071s were(are?) prone to slipping in poor rail conditions, at one stage CIE would send a a loco and brake van up the "Gullet"  from Island Bridge Junction to Inchacore to sand the rails on wet or frosty conditions to sand the rails for heavy southbound departures.

Slipping and inadequate braking power seems to have been less of a problem with the B101 and A/001 Class than the GMs as they had better slow speed hauling ability with their Metrovickers electrical systems and drop equalising bogies.

 

Edited by Mayner
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Posted (edited)

here is another clip on  the beet , I think the 121 and 141 classes were better performers in conditions like this on the beet .

 

 

Edited by flange lubricator
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Posted (edited)

Didn’t think that was going to make it...😃 and as for the Sandbaggers...Evidently there’s no sand on Diesels or is there..! and evidently no other diesel available to back up...!! support..but it was mega to watch, many thanks Flange for posting,

BTB

Edited by burnthebox

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4 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

here is another clip on  the beet , I think the 121 and 141 classes were better performers in conditions like this on the beet .

 

 

Perhaps because of the number of driven axles? All very well having an 071 with its 2475hp gross/2250hp net/1833hp at-rail but it's not much use if you can't get that all that power down at the rails.

A 201 might fare better with its creep control and microprocessor WSP though

4 hours ago, skinner75 said:

Looks like wheel slip is still a problem for the 071 class, as seen in the two vids below. Credit to Irish Rail Trains user on Youtube for the vids
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh7ZZru5yIQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FShskcVZe4U

Always has been, I remember reading an article in The Journal which mentioned a few instances of such, "A"s and "C"s were very sure-footed by comparison, though even with the original Crossley engines in Notch 9 or 10 an "A" would undoubtedly slip at low speed, assuming the engine didn't shut down first! ;)

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14 hours ago, DiveController said:

The sand boxes seem to have been superfluous to Irish operations and were removed pretty quickly (albeit I don't know why they would NEED to remove them quickly per se)

To be fair, even with today's modern much lighter railcar/DMUs, sand is generally only used for emergency braking or in higher brake settings if wheelslide is detected, traction often relies solely on modern wheelspin protection and creep control systems to deliver as much power as possible to the rails without provoking significant slippage (a degree of slippage is permitted, usually about 8%, as maximum grip is actually obtained with a small degree of slip).

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There was a lot of interesting information on the performance of the various classes in Dan Renehans series of papers on CIE Diesel Locos in IRRS Journals of the 70s & 80s.

The 071s have a tendency to slip because of a combination their high tractive power and relatively light weight or adhesion factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesion_railway and the absence of a traction control system. Interestingly the 071s were only rostered to work passenger trains when introduced, possibly as a result of safety concerns raised by the unions representing drivers. The unions lodged documents with the Courts detailing concerns as part of their bargaining process when the company attempted to roster the class to p.w. and freight work without first negotiating with the drivers.

Interesting scene on Taylorstown Bank sending out workers to assist the train by placing ballast on the track, in loose coupled days the goods trains were restricted to a maximum of 550 tons over Taylorstown Bank. During the Beet Campaign CIE operated a shuttle service of beet trains between Wellington Bridge and Campile and later Waterford where trains were re-marshaled to a max of 780 tons for the Beet Specials to the Thurles Factory. Shuttle working ceased and the scheduled Beet Specials ran through from Wellington Bridge to Thurles & later Mallow and the load limit for liner trains over Taylorstown crept up from 630-780 tons  following the introduction of the beet double wagons in the late 70s. 

Likewise the majority of loose coupled goods departing the North Wall were banked by an E Class or a main line loco as far as East Wall Junction, Cabra or Liffey Junction in loose coupled days, Heuston (Kingsbridge Goods) Main Line and Liffey Branch were banked to Inchacore & sometimes Clondalkin and North Wall Transfer Trains banked to Cabra.

 

 

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On 6/9/2020 at 3:31 PM, Railer said:

Looking at the latest pics I think PM even captured the marker lights being the wrong way round on 134 too. It's a bit hard to tell but I think he did it.

yep he commented about that at the rpsi stand at blackrock on one of our posters

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On 6/10/2020 at 9:28 PM, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

I’m sorry, but the points are valid. Compare our product line in number to any of the big British retailers and it becomes clear how they can reduce sales margin across their inventory and make money whereas a smaller retailer like ourselves cannot. It’s very simple economics. Also, VAT is 3% lower and Sterling is in flux to say the least. 

However, I’m delighted to report that many people have supported us with 121 purchases and we are very thankful for that. At the end of the day; it’s your money, it’s your choice. I’m glad people choose us, as it shows we are doing something right and we can support Murphy Models AND put the money earned into tooling new Irish outline models 🙂. That’s a win for the hobby.

Cheers
 

Fran

 

 

plus another benefit of both irm and marks is that we can pay over a reasonable time in installments which allows some to budget better.

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1 hour ago, mphoey said:

plus another benefit of both irm and marks is that we can pay over a reasonable time in installments which allows some to budget better.

That is a very good point and welcome option.

Rich,

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As we're into the last day of June is there any update on expected arrivals of the 121?

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On 6/19/2020 at 2:05 PM, jhb171achill said:

Superb looking yoke.

No handrails along the side - that's the way they were delivered; these were only added during the "black'n'tan" period, thus it is possible to have a black'n'tan one with or without handrails.

Silver was used 1955-58 on new A, B101, G601, E401 and C classes; the B121s were a light grey rather than silver.

Here's a thought. Next person to have a pint with Jim Meade, suggest amending an existing 071 with "snails" and yellow bits!

Indeed - I wonder when they were removed from there? I never remember seeing them in real life on black & tan ones either.

looking at the list b131 in black tan has no handrails while 126 does have them

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mphoey said:

looking at the list b131 in black tan has no handrails while 126 does have them

The inhabitants of MMTowers have thought of everything!

Edited by jhb171achill

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, mphoey said:

yep he commented about that at the rpsi stand at blackrock on one of our posters

That's pretty impressive if he did. The sand filler pipes wouldn't be a deal breaker either ways since so few people may ever have even noticed that judging by the thread here. Look ing forward to the second batch a little more but I'm probably going to get some IE also. Lots of silver green and black As on the way too though....

EDIT: Actually looked at the CADs again and since the sand fillers are on the Cad but not on the pictures of the IE locos I think we can assume they're there there for at least  the Grey & yellow livery. 

Edited by DiveController

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