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Thanks Popeye.

The roofs are scratch built, from plastic. I used the method described by Geoff Kent in the Model Railway Journal number 228. Roofs, in my experience, are one of the most difficult items to model. Irish coaches were generally wider than those in Britain, so pre-formed roofs designed for British stock are not really suitable for Irish coaches. Geoff Kents method is a bit complicated and rewards practice. I'm working on another project at the moment and will, if I remember in the heat of battle, take a few snaps of the method but we're a few weeks away from that stage.

There are no rainstrips on the roof. These are noticeably absent from many GNR coaches. I'm looking at a high level photo taken in 1963 which shows five GNR coaches around Newry; only one appears to have rainstrips. Possibly they were not replaced when coaches were re-roofed. Saves a job anyway!

Cheers,

Glover

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When the GNR Board was disbanded in 1958, the UTA immediately set about repainting the more modern, flush sided coaches into their green livery. Older wooden bodied coaches were not a priority and thus GNR coaches in their old varnished teak livery could still be seen in UTA service in 1963. There are a number of photos to support this.

Therefore.......

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This is most certainly a first for me.

The varnished wood livery was achieved thanks to a piece on RMweb by Mike Trice. Google 'painting LNER model coaches' or something similar.

Essentially, apply a white primer and then a base coat of cheap acrylic paint in a colour like orange or yellow. Then a mix of burnt umber (artists oil) and something called Liquin Original, available in art supply shops. Apply this mix with Golden Taklon brushes. Finally, varnish to taste. 

It's actually as simple as that and I have to say that I am well pleased with the end result.

 

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I took some photos outdoors as it shows the livery to good effect. 

The K8 open third was numbered 326 , by the UTA, on the green side (built 1917, withdrawn 1967). Previously it was numbered 357 by the GNR.

On the teak side, the UTA number is 320 (GNR number 18). This was withdrawn in October 1963 (built 1915) and therefore it is reasonable to assume that it never received UTA green.

I have used the UTA Red Hand logos on the teak side.

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The L9 ( brake/third) was given the UTA number 466 on the teak side and 464 on the green side. 

I can now run them as a both teak or both green combination or a mix, which might be more typical. Or I could if I had an appropriate loco........ A long term project.

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Back in April of this year, I wrote about my conversion of the old Hornby LMS Stanier coaches into a 1953 build CIE brake/standard. I noted that I wasn't happy with the roof profile. These coache roofs were almost flat across most of their width but then turned sharply downwards on each side; I'm sure there's a proper geometric term for such curves.

I had another go, using the same Geoff Kent method but with the benefit of practice, I think it has turned out better. I also renewed the corridor connectors and fixed a de-railing issue . Before and after photos below.

Now, back to the hammering and banging on the workbench as I work on my Q4 project.

Cheers,

Glover

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I note that the corridor connector is a bit askew in the second ('after') photo; it's fine when it's buffered up to other stock.

Glover

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Brilliant, brilliant stuff!

The teak coaches look just right, as I recall them. A point of detail: while the UTA put red hand roundels on a few railcars still in GNR navy and cream, older wooden coaches would only get the UTA logo if painted green.

On this scale, though the UTA logo looks a bit overscale, and could at a distance look like a faded GNR crest!

Excellent work as always.

I have struggled to think of a reason to bring something UTA to my layout, based at the same period - but, while the location is fictitious, it's somewhere in the south - think Mallow-Waterford or South Kerry area. Maybe a visiting pigeon special!

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On 12/29/2016 at 8:38 PM, Glover said:

That seemed to work!

 

The extract from the Railway Modeller was the first in a series which achieved near legendary status. The first article appeared in August 1966. It dealt with the conversion of the Triang Hornby GWR clear storey coach into Southern Railway ( England) look alikes.

Given the similarity to Irish coaches, I resolved to follow the plans.

Only took me 50 years!

 

However, I went a little further; about 6 feet......

 

The original plan was for LBSCR 54 foot coaches but the similar GWSR/GSR coaches were 60 footers.

Essentially you cut the passenger sections from two GWR brake 3rds and join them together.

However, I decided to widen them somewhat, to replicate the wider dimensions of Irish stock.

That involved some rather agricultural cutting of the sides away from the original chassis.

I also added some height to the coach using Evergreen strip.image.jpg

I scratch built new ends although the roof is BR Mk1.

Bogies are Bachmann LMS.

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Hi Glover just found your workshop thread so starting at the beginning with the above coach, you mentioned that you added some evergreen strip to the body was that at the top or the bottom of the sides, what size was it if you can recall? if you can't what was is the new side height of the body shell?

I have just come into the ownership of about 6 or 7 of these coaches (I was going to build some Isle of Man 3ft gauge style coaches from them until i saw you Irish Broad Gauge efforts).

Finally for now what is the width you have built it to?

regards

Colin

Edited by Colin R

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Hi Colin,

Arrrgh!! I had to go out to the shed to measure it; its 2 degrees here at the moment!  But, many thanks for taking an interest in my efforts. 

Height is almost 28mm. I suspect I used something like 2mm Evergreen strip; I didn't keep a specific note . It was added to the top of the bodyside.

Width is only slightly wider than the original Tri-ang/Hornby but I now generally build to 38mm width. Yes it does look more than a bit narrow gauge when viewed end on but certainly on my layout, virtually all views are side on.

To my mind, the advantage of building to, more or less, the full Irish width is that it gives you a more correct roof profile.

It does require some brutal work with a hacksaw to reduce these coaches to body sides only, which is really the only part of the originals I used.

Can I apologise in advance if you have other questions ( and please ask away) but I'll be off-air for the next few days , so I may be somewhat tardy in responding.

Meantime, give it a go!

Cheers,

Glover

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Lots of stuff on here Glover, and thanks for the reply which is more that just useful. I am drifting toward using Downpartick in some form or other, as it has everything I like in a country terminus.

I think I will end up only using the track plan and building all the railway buildings to a more standard Irish outlook (stone effect plasticard), but that is all for the future.

Colin

 

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The project of building five or six brake/passenger coaches to run through Pettigo (on the Bundoran branch) continues.

What the GNR described as a J4 brake-trio (1st, 2nd and 3rd class) were a very popular coach on the Irish North Western lines. An article in New Irish Lines, November 2016, lists five of them taken over by the UTA on the disbandment of the GNR. Given that stock was divided 50:50 between the UTA and CIE, it is reasonable to suppose that CIE received five.

They were built between approx 1916 and 1920. The UTA withdrew the last of theirs in 1967.

Worsley Works list them on their web site but we're not available when I checked.

Therefore, the only option was to scratch build..........easy to say!

I've only scratch built one coach in my modelling lifetime and that was a GNR steel coach. It was also many years ago.

Anyway, a photo; I'll follow up with some notes that might be of interest.

Cheers,

Glover

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I had no proper drawing to work from, just some basic notes from Coakhams 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages'. I did copy some measurements, (window sizes, panel widths etc), from the L9 and K8 coaches which I had previously built from Worsley Works parts. Working out the interior layout was a bit of a puzzle; there were WCs for each class.

The basic build followed Geoff Kents series in the Model Railway Journal of some years ago. Basic material is 20thou plastic. 

It is a fairly tedious process marking out the plastic and then cutting. I used thin Evergreen plastic strips to reproduce the panelling.

 

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I normally use Bachmann LMS bogies on my GNR coaches but the older wooden bodied coaches use a shorter wheelbase one, built by the Fox company.

Closest I could find to these were Fox bogies made by MJT/Dart Castings. You are supposed to solder these together........plastic and super glue is your only man! I have to say that while they have turned out OK, they are somewhat fiddly to assemble and are also quite an expensive option compared to the Bachmann RTR option.

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I tried a new technique to achieve the UTA lining: Pocca fine lining ink pens (available in art supply shops).

I rate this as a success ; much easier to apply than paint.  

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The interiors are scratch built from plastic. 

First class seats are painted in a sort of pink colour, 2nd are blue while 3rd are green. There is also a difference in the overall ornamentation of the seating woodwork. This is all from my imagination but I think consistent with how these things were done in days gone by.

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As per my usual practice, I painted the other side of the coach in an alternative livery; GNR varnished wood in this case. Various photos confirm that the UTA prioritised painting more modern steel bodied GNR coaches into their green livery while older wooden bodied stock soldiered on in GNR colours up to the early 1960s. 

When I wrote about my L9 and K8 builds last year, JHB offered praise but also noted that the UTA symbols were never applied to these unpainted coaches. I didn't get a chance at the time to acknowledge JHBs comments; we were all a bit over run with the excitement of IRMs announcement of the A class Metro-Vicks!

I would not dare to contradict such an eminent authority as JHB but photos by Des Fitzgerald taken on the Warrenpoint branch appear to support the idea that they did carry a symbol but which one........could it have been the GNR(B) roundal? The photos are all taken from oblique angles so it is not possible to be sure. So, I left them off but I have applied 'UT' lettering to the ends on the GNR painted sides. This appears to have been a standard feature in the early post GNR stock taken over by the UTA. Again I've used a Pocca pen to achieve this.

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That's it for the moment. I'm not sure what's next, although I'm researching early/mid 1950s CIE built coaches, those post-Bredin/pre-laminates distinctively 'boxy' coaches.

Scratchbuilding coaches, especially older wooden bodied ones is hard work but I think worth the effort.

One final photo for GNR fans: an L9, K8 and J4 forming a short GNR train. Happy days!

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Excellent work and love the interiors. Can only agree that scratch, or even kit building coaches is a lot of work and not just because you usually want several of them. It is easy to think it is just sides roof and bogies, but all the details add up, especially stuff like handles, hinges and so on.

 Well worth it though and your paintwork provides a lovely finish.

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I have to say, Glover, I remain bowled over by your carriages. They absolutely exude atmosphere like few others.

You got me curious about Des’ photos taken round Warrenpoint, so I checked a few of his pics, and consulted a few old copies of IRN. All GNR crests.

The remaining GNR wooden carriages were never meant to have been kept long-term by either CIE (who got rid of theirs pretty quickly as they were building laminates) or the UTA - who wanted to obliterate railways entirely.

The stencilling - an essential feature of any GNR-area layout 1959-mid 60s..... I think you’re the first person I’ve seen applying this to models - congratulations on your eye for detail!

UTA roundels were applied to newer ex-GNR stock (e.g. BUT railcars) before a repaint for one reason only - being comparatively recently newly painted, it was deemed a waste of money to repaint fully there and then. This didn’t apply to older stock, so they either repainted in full at an appropriate time, or left it if the vehicle was unlikely to be retained long term.

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Excellent Glover

All looks great. Love the yellow button detail on the pink cushions- now that's rivet counting😀

Eoin

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Thank you gentlemen.

To Eoin's comment, the finish on the 1st class seats, complete with yellow buttons, was inspired by watching some Antiques Roadshow programme which featured an Edwardian armchair. I imagine that the railway company's were inspired by the fashions of the time when fitting out their coaches, especially 1st class.

Of course, all of this becomes invisible as soon as you put the roof on; is this the road to madness?!

Cheers,

Glover

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38 minutes ago, Glover said:

Thank you gentlemen.

To Eoin's comment, the finish on the 1st class seats, complete with yellow buttons, was inspired by watching some Antiques Roadshow programme which featured an Edwardian armchair. I imagine that the railway company's were inspired by the fashions of the time when fitting out their coaches, especially 1st class.

Of course, all of this becomes invisible as soon as you put the roof on; is this the road to madness?!

Cheers,

Glover

Exactly. First class upholstery tended to be more ornate, often with flowery patterns or some sort of interwoven leaves pattern. The GSWR and GNR both used patterns like this. Second class tended to be plain and of course initially third class was bare boards, eventually sparse plain upholstery. Even as late as AEC railcar days, I remember the quite intricate leafy patterns in the first class in these - it was a light greenish-grey pattern, I think.

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At the end of the previous coach build, I mentioned that I was researching the first CIE built coaches. Well, the research has born fruit and here it is but I have to tell you, it nearly broke my bluddy heart. Anything that could go wrong etc. 

In part, this was due to poor strategic planning: the Objectives were conflicted which meant that the Strategies were all over the place and therefore the Plans were useless. Certain politicians in certain countries please note.......

I'll follow up with some prototype notes and then some 'how not to go about building a coach ' pointers.

Cheers,

Glover

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CIE built their first coaches in 1951. Between then and 1956, they built a total of 101 bogie passenger coaches to what I would term a 'slab-sided' profile. That is, a turn under as per usual practice at the bottom of the coach side but no curve inwards at the top of the body. This gave them a very square-shouldered appearance and instantly recognisable in a CIE train of the 1950s to the early 1970s. The photo below attempts to show this, with a GNR K15 to one side and a Park Royal at the other end.

The initial 6 coaches were built on 60' underframes but all others were on 61'6" frames.

This is a summary of the types built:

Standards (originally termed 3rd class and later 2nd) : 40 

Composites                                                                         : 38

Buffets                                                                                  :18

Brake/standards                                                                  :5

It is a slightly odd list; did CIE really need so much 1st class accommodation (via the compos) in 1950s Ireland? Also, why so many buffets and so few brake/passenger coaches?

I think the answer is: AEC railcars. In the early 1950s, the railcar was seen as the future but needed intermediate/trailer coaches, especially buffets for long distance travel.

More notes to follow.

Glover

 

 

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love the entire post, that near empty line in above photo, the ballast speaks miles about your attention to detail,  just love it, and the wooden carraiges above. magic...

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I note in the Irish Models section of this forum, JHB has contributed a very useful listing of all of the main types of rolling stock built for/by CIE and the UTA ( and their successors). These notes should add further detail on those CIE coaches built between 1951 and 1956. Thereafter, CIE built what are usually referred to as Laminates, which had quite a different side profile, ran on Commonwealth bogies and many (most?) were built on Bullieds triangulated underframe. 

I transcribed these notes about 30 years ago but didn't record the source; silly boy! They do however appear to correspond with photographic evidence.

Builds by year:

1951: 6X compos (2124-2129) 60' underframe. Compartments

           12X standards (1339-1350) 61'6" underframe. Compartments

1952: 7X compos (2130-2136) ? Underframe. Compartments

           5X standards (1351-1355) 61'6" underframe. Compartments. Built at GNR Works, Dundalk.

1953: 16X standards (1356-1371) 61'6" undeframe. Open

            5X brake/standards (1904-1908) 61'6" underframe. Open

1954: 25X compos (2137-2161) "similar to 2130 series" . Compartments

            7X standards (1372-1378) " similar to 1339 series". Compartments

1953/54: 14X buffet cars (2405-2418) 61'6" underframe

1956: 4X buffet cars (2419-2422) 61'6" underframe

    

The notes didn't mention the underframe length for the 2130 series but I think we can assume 61'6".  It's also worth noting the preponderance of compartment stock; I think I'm right in saying that all coaches after these were open layout.

I wonder were the 1351 series the last coaches built at Dundalk?

Glover

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I have numbered my coach as 1356; one of the 16 open standards built in 1953.

It's all scratchbuilt from various thickness's of plastic, largely following the methods set out by Geoff Kent in his series on coach building in the Model Railway Journal some years ago. Even if I say so myself, the roofs are getting better but still far from perfect. The bogies are from the BR Mk1 coach distributed some years ago with the Hachette partwork on model railways.

I attempted to make the bogies a bit more like the GSR bogie which was fitted to these coaches originally; I think some at least might have been given Commonwealth bogies later in their life.

This photo is for all the little boys..........it is quite possible that this length of Hornby-Dublo 3 rail track was manufactured at Binns Road Liverpool in or about the same time as the prototype of this coach was built!

 

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Edited by Glover
Wrong photo
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I mentioned at the outset that this build was not straightforward.

The original objective was to create one of those distinctive 1951 to 1954 coaches with a door and WCs in the centre. The strategy was to improve something I had built a good many years ago, using the Hornby LMS Stanier coach. This was based on a rather clever conversion detailed in an issue of New Irish Lines (which I now can't find and therefore cannot credit the author).

Essentially, you cut the Hornby coach in half, glue one of the ends to the middle and add a new door at the end. As I say, clever. However, I discovered it was rather short in overall length and therefore decided Plan B might be the way to go........

Note this photo was taken just as I was about to take the whole thing apart; I have no idea why I painted the roof in that light grey! Still, I think the idea has merit and mY return to it at some stage.

Glover

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Plan B was to make use of something that was otherwise of no use to me: a BR Mk1, distributed with the Hachette partwork on model railways some years ago. The idea was simple: shorten it (eliminating the centre door) and attach a new 'skin' of 15thou plastic. To achieve the greater height of the CIE coach and to replicate the flat upper body profile, I attached a strip of plastic to the top of the body, standing slightly proud of the Hachette body.

However, I couldn't separate the glazing from the body side which I suspected was going to create a significant problem in repainting the sliding vents, without getting paint on the glazing.

So, another set of 'useful' bits put aside but I did use the basic chassis and bogies.

And that's how I came to scratchbuild 1356....... I know, that's where I should have started rather than messing around with what looked like short cuts!

Cheers,

Glover

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I had thought of doing this to an old Mainline Railways BR SO. They are still lovely models, even if the windows do appear a tad on the small side. Anyway, removing the central doors reduces the body length to a scale 60’ 9”, 9”3mm short.

Stephen

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Stephen, I actually did that Mainline conversion some years ago. Essentially, cut out the centre door and fit new flat ends.

However, my conversion ends up at 238mm long; should be 246 mil. It's difficult to see where to add the extra 8 mil.

It's also short on the top to bottom of the bodyside; I reckon it should be 26mm but the Mainline coach is 24.5mm. All of this, and more, is on the space between the bottom  of the window and the bottom of the body.  Again, my reckoning is that this should be 11.5mm  whereas the Mainline coach is 9mm. Window depth is 12.5mm ; should be 13mm. So, not much in this.

I have a feeling that the Mainline coach was actually 'out' even in terms of a BR Mk1; it's almost as though it was made to a fractually less than 4mm scale.

I've kept it in my 'must try to do something about it' box but to be honest, it would probably be better to view it as a source of spares.

Cheers,

Glover

 

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It still makes a reasonable representation of the early ‘50’s SO. I hadn’t measured that closely but I’ll take your word for the dimensional irregularities. Is it almost a case that it would be ok in a rake of the same but put it against a more accurate model and the faults are accentuated? I wonder why the dimensions were so far out.

When Trix used to make British based models, they used a scale of 3.8mm to the foot. Again, who knows why unless it was so that they could be used alongside HO models.

Stephen

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