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https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/9504cc0f42cbc6cb202406c9e0cbbe23/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/july-advertising-pub-memorabilia-and-collectibles-sale-lot-542/

1100123251.JPG

 

Most peculiar sign here from Inny Junction which closed to passengers in 1931. if this is original it's MGWR, but I was flummoxed by Juadereeen? 

It looks like two halves of two separate signs, the first from Inny Junction and the second from Kilfree Junction, so that its Ballaghadereen. (But there should only be one be r in the name)

There's a comma after Cavan, but not after Clones, so it probably reads Clones Junction. The finger direction on the second part is ambiguous.

And why or how would two matching signs from two remote stations end up together? There's a story there somewhere.

Edited by bufferstop
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17 hours ago, bufferstop said:

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/9504cc0f42cbc6cb202406c9e0cbbe23/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/july-advertising-pub-memorabilia-and-collectibles-sale-lot-542/

1100123251.JPG

 

Most peculiar sign here from Inny Junction which closed to passengers in 1931. if this is original it's MGWR, but I was flummoxed by Juadereeen? 

It looks like two halves of two separate signs, the first from Inny Junction and the second from Kilfree Junction, so that its Ballaghadereen. (But there should only be one be r in the name)

There's a comma after Cavan, but not after Clones, so it probably reads Clones Junction. The finger direction on the second part is ambiguous.

And why or how would two matching signs from two remote stations end up together? There's a story there somewhere.

Ahh yes juardeen junction for the rio de hagerdeen branch

 

I wonder if somone else has the other 2 that compliment those

Edited by Westcorkrailway
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Interesting both MGWR signs, the Inny Junction one is particularly interesting including Clones Junction a destination on the Great Northern.

There were no advertised connections between the Midland & GNR at Cavan in the 1897 MGWR WTT, though there are advertised connections are advertised between Navan Junction and Kells but not Oldcastle in the same timetable. The MGWR had running powers over the GNR between Navan & Kells possible reason for the connection.

In pre-amalgamation point Cavan was a major interchange point for cattle traffic from the Midlands to Belfast Port with trains working through between the two systems, presumably with loco change at Cavan or possibly Clones?

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1 hour ago, Mayner said:

In pre-amalgamation point Cavan was a major interchange point for cattle traffic from the Midlands to Belfast Port with trains working through between the two systems, presumably with loco change at Cavan or possibly Clones?

Yes, there was a GN loco shed at Cavan, and MGWR / GSR locos only went that far from Inny Junction (or, more specifically, Mullingar). Even between September 1957 and April 1959, when Inny Jct. - Cavan - Clones - Dundalk was basically one single long goods-only route, ex-GN steam locos still operated from Dundalk to Clones, and "C" class diesels operated from North Wall - Inny Junction - Cavan. There was no operational reason why it couldn't have been done as one route - maybe it would have at least lasted until the 1967 closures on that basis.

Layout idea: Cavan in 1966 - goods only, but many a GAA special!

There WERE a very small number of diesel operations from the Midland line north of Inny Jct. An "A" class took a GAA special out of Monaghan one time, south to Cavan and on via Inny Junction to Croker. But regular services never crossed over.

2 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Ahh yes juardeen junction for the rio de hagerdeen branch

 

I wonder if somone else has the other 2 that compliment those

....calling at Skibbereen, Paris (Orly), Strabane, Achill and Harmonstown......

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1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, there was a GN loco shed at Cavan, and MGWR / GSR locos only went that far from Inny Junction (or, more specifically, Mullingar). Even between September 1957 and April 1959, when Inny Jct. - Cavan - Clones - Dundalk was basically one single long goods-only route, ex-GN steam locos still operated from Dundalk to Clones, and "C" class diesels operated from North Wall - Inny Junction - Cavan. There was no operational reason why it couldn't have been done as one route - maybe it would have at least lasted until the 1967 closures on that basis.

Layout idea: Cavan in 1966 - goods only, but many a GAA special!

There WERE a very small number of diesel operations from the Midland line north of Inny Jct. An "A" class took a GAA special out of Monaghan one time, south to Cavan and on via Inny Junction to Croker. But regular services never crossed over.

....calling at Skibbereen, Paris (Orly), Strabane, Achill and Harmonstown......

Ahhh jaysus, have the closed the london branch via macmine junction, gort, naas, drimoleague and new york central? Bustling line

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4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, there was a GN loco shed at Cavan, and MGWR / GSR locos only went that far from Inny Junction (or, more specifically, Mullingar). Even between September 1957 and April 1959, when Inny Jct. - Cavan - Clones - Dundalk was basically one single long goods-only route, ex-GN steam locos still operated from Dundalk to Clones, and "C" class diesels operated from North Wall - Inny Junction - Cavan. There was no operational reason why it couldn't have been done as one route - maybe it would have at least lasted until the 1967 closures on that basis.

Layout idea: Cavan in 1966 - goods only, but many a GAA special!

There WERE a very small number of diesel operations from the Midland line north of Inny Jct. An "A" class took a GAA special out of Monaghan one time, south to Cavan and on via Inny Junction to Croker. But regular services never crossed over.

.

 

One of my favourite might have been scenarios was a "joint" MGWR-GNR line from Kells to Cavan via Virginia and possibly onwards to Enniskillen a better routing for Dublin-Cavan & possibly Monaghan passenger services than by Inny Junction.

An amalgamation between the Midland and the Great Northern was actually considered in the early 1920s with the LMS taking over the lines north and west of Dublin and the GWR taking over the GSWR, DSER and West Cork.

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On 18/7/2021 at 3:32 AM, bufferstop said:

https://www.easyliveauction.com/catalogue/lot/9504cc0f42cbc6cb202406c9e0cbbe23/0af8d24542e81eb9357e7ef448a6646f/july-advertising-pub-memorabilia-and-collectibles-sale-lot-542/

1100123251.JPG

 

Most peculiar sign here from Inny Junction which closed to passengers in 1931. if this is original it's MGWR, but I was flummoxed by Juadereeen? 

It looks like two halves of two separate signs, the first from Inny Junction and the second from Kilfree Junction, so that its Ballaghadereen. (But there should only be one be r in the name)

There's a comma after Cavan, but not after Clones, so it probably reads Clones Junction. The finger direction on the second part is ambiguous.

And why or how would two matching signs from two remote stations end up together? There's a story there somewhere.

Assuming they're both from Inny Junction which is a more likely scenario how they ended up together and assuming that the format is "TO (somewhere) , (somewhere) & (somewhere)" i.e. a main centre, where MGWR jurisdiction ends/main terminus and a branch terminus.

One may have once read "To Cavan, Clones Junct. & Killeshandra" and the other "To Longford, Ballaghaderreen & Sligo", and going to assume there was yet another for the Dublin-bound direction.

If there was a sign at Kilfree I imagine it would have simply read "Kilfree Junction - Change for Ballaghaderreen (Branch)" or such like.

Edited by minister_for_hardship
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18 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Ahh yes juardeen junction for the rio de hagerdeen branch

 

I wonder if somone else has the other 2 that compliment those

....calling at Skibbereen, Paris (Orly), Strabane, Achill and Harmonstown......

 

3 hours ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Assuming they're both from Inny Junction which is a more likely scenario how they ended up together and assuming that the format is "TO (somewhere) , (somewhere) & (somewhere)" i.e. a main centre, where MGWR jurisdiction ends/main terminus and a branch terminus.

One may have once read "To Cavan, Clones Junct. & Killeshandra" and the other "To Longford, Ballaghaderreen & Sligo", and going to assume there was yet another for the Dublin-bound direction.

If there was a sign at Kilfree I imagine it would have simply read "Kilfree Junction - Change for Ballaghaderreen (Branch)" or such like.

Yes, they are both from Inny Jct. They would have been on different platforms. The main line down side would have said "To Cavan, Clones Junct. & Killeshandra" and the other "To Longford, Ballaghaderreen & Sligo", exactly as you say.

Kilfree would have simply said "Change for Ballaghaderreen" or just "To BGallaghaderreen" or something like that.

I pinged the auctioneer and told him that he ought to make clear in his advertising that these are not the same sign.

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Its a tender engine (no evidence of side tanks) with a Belpaire firebox and a large smokebox wrapper which would fit in with Lough Swilly 4-8-0 No 12 somewhere on the Burtonport extension. That could be a ballast siding off to the left. Will see if its on any of the old 25" maps but coverage of the Burtonport line was patchy. I think I have seen a photo somewhere in one of the books on the Swilly of a photo with the same aspect of No 12 derelict outside Letterkenny shed.

 

Edited by Irishswissernie
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There is a photo on page 74 of Pattersons revised book published by Colourpoint looking from the outside of the cab on No 12 and the details all fit. I can't find anything on the maps of a possible definite location. Definitely no 12 or 11.  The mountain faintly visible looks like Errigal.

Edited by Irishswissernie
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1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

remind me of a couple of photos from Dr EM Patterson's book on the lough swilly railway but relooking at the boiler its probably not 

You were spot on the first time, Midland Man, well done; I was just curious - then I saw Errigal behind, so it couldn't be anywhere else! I've recently got a load of Senior's old prints scanned to a better quality than the ones I posted a year or so ago.

He only travelled to Burtonport once, and took very few pictures; this was taken from the footplate of No. 12, one of the 4.8.0 tender engines, near Gweedore. 

Now, for Lough Swilly experts, WHAT is that ballast siding on the left? WHERE exactly was it?

35 minutes ago, Irishswissernie said:

There is a photo on page 74 of Pattersons revised book published by Colourpoint looking from the outside of the cab on No 12 and the details all fit. I can't find anything on the maps of a possible definite location. Definitely no 12 or 11.  The mountain faintly visible looks like Errigal.

100% right!

 

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187 - Dundalk, Newry & Greenore cast iron railway sign

Some poor bollix paid €320 for this classic last week in an auction in Cork. When you add in auctioneers fees and delivery, you're talking well over €400.😳

This is the twentieth example of this sign that I've seen auctioned, someone is pumping them out, mind you it's a masterpiece, compared to this one that's regularly appearing................

207 - Cast Iron Sign

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1 hour ago, bufferstop said:

187 - Dundalk, Newry & Greenore cast iron railway sign

Some poor bollix paid €320 for this classic last week in an auction in Cork. When you add in auctioneers fees and delivery, you're talking well over €400.😳

This is the twentieth example of this sign that I've seen auctioned, someone is pumping them out, mind you it's a masterpiece, compared to this one that's regularly appearing................

207 - Cast Iron Sign

Ghastly. Two truly awful fakes.

I sincerely hope the auctioneer didn’t try to pass them off as real; that would actually be fraud.

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No, auctioneers are cute enough. They wouldn't proclaim something as original unless they're certain, but at the same time most won't state the likes of the above as a replica/fake, they'll just list it. This is especially the case when you're selling them on a near weekly basis...

There's obviously a mini industry pumping out fake signs and posters , not just in railways, you see them all the time.  If someone is happy to pay 20 or 30 euros for a replica, more power to them, but when someone is paying over €300, then it becomes  a problem.

 

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17 minutes ago, bufferstop said:

No, auctioneers are cute enough. They wouldn't proclaim something as original unless they're certain, but at the same time most won't state the likes of the above as a replica/fake, they'll just list it. This is especially the case when you're selling them on a near weekly basis...

There's obviously a mini industry pumping out fake signs and posters , not just in railways, you see them all the time.  If someone is happy to pay 20 or 30 euros for a replica, more power to them, but when someone is paying over €300, then it becomes  a problem.

 

They sell these in mother jones flea market for 35 euros 😅 was always tempted by the "C&BR" one to put on a gate pillar or something. Makes that bantry excursion poster i overpaid for look like peanuts in comparison as its actually verifiable real

Speaking of which, saw somone claiming all these signs were authentic. One search of "railway signs" on done deal will reveal all

https://www.donedeal.ie/collectibles-for-sale/10-antique-irish-railway-signs-pre-1920/28728511

 

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46 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

It’s a generic sign often used in the repro/retro market. The only suitable currency for buying stuff like that is €3 notes…..

I can get you some repro €3 notes. 70c each, or three for €2.90.

Send me a postal order, or cash in the usual place behind the bike sheds.

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