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jhb171achill

Matching locos & rolling stock to historic timetables

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In planning layouts in the past, and in particular the current one, Dugort Harbour, if I seek realism I consult old timetables to see what exactly would have strutted the rails in the chosen (or imaginary) location.

Here are a few extracts from the winter 1960/1 WTT which shows the West Cork and West Clare systems. Perusal of these shows what was where, and when - indicating, for example, that three railcars plus one loco for goods were required to operate the West Clare, and in West Cork you'd need a branch set for Skibbereen, a coach based down there for Baltimore, plus the railcar which did what was then the main line, Cork (Albert Quay) to Bantry. Add to this the comings and goings over the Cork City Railway, and the notice of what pilot engines were required at Albert Quay, and at what hours, and it's clear quite soon how many "C" class locos (or No. 90 to shunt) were required.

Nerdy I know; this is me. But to some, hopefully, interesting.

WTT extracts below:

9FD07F4D-8B68-4B8B-BE31-4CD9A11BD4E3.jpeg

8B9EE45D-CE4C-4DB8-93ED-40A948ABDFFE.jpeg

1C48AA08-830F-44C7-BB8D-A9AE3FDED61E.jpeg

66D3E998-AB2B-4BE8-BC37-3EA9C28BF83C.jpeg

96BE9E57-2D7A-4FC1-B7A2-8C6166F53D8D.jpeg

1406C8A5-6EA9-4172-8C53-2D4CBC7329ED.jpeg

0694FCDE-1D57-4B0B-A349-199132AD9FE3.jpeg

D198E17C-92D9-4BA4-AECF-82212F1694DF.jpeg

D4762A65-3F97-4F9C-B8E1-34E9C5B613A9.jpeg

0289EC06-1985-4F6D-9E86-9A0E57C845F8.jpeg

Edited by jhb171achill
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In the above, and in general, a column heading "D E" meant a diesel locomotive of A, B101 or C class. In the case of West Cork, this would be "C" - the other two classes never set foot there in service, though an "A" did a trial run light once. "D T" means "Diesel train", which meant an AEC railcar set. A column headed "J" meant a J15 steam engine or, on the Midland (e.g. the Ballaghaderreen branch) a J18. A column with nothing at the top could be anything, steam or diesel. On the West Clare, "D T" meant a Walker railcar.

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I agree fully with your approach. If you want to model Irish railways in a particular time period and geographical area, it will require quite an amount of modifying, kit building and indeed scratch building. Therefore, it makes sense to establish just what rolling stock you need ( unless you plan to live to 250 or win the lottery!).

I want to build a CIE branch train to run through Pettigo on the Bundoran branch ( imagining that it lasted to 1963 as a joint CIE/UTA operation). To that end, I've looked at as many photos as possible but as you know, there weren't very many branches left by then.

However, I did come across a couple of interesting photos on Roger Joanes Flickr taken at Birr in September 1960. You in fact showed an extract from the WTT, for 1959 I think, on your thread. The basic service appears to have been 2 up and 2 down mixed trains per day. In the photos, the loco is C class MetroVick number C233, in green livery. My interest was in the two coach passenger element of the mixed train: what looks like a GSWR/GSR non-corridor coach and what I'm 99% certain is an ex GNR J11 tri-compo brake! I've built two of those yokes!

Therefore, with a previous conversion of the old Hornby GWR clearstorey, I have my CIE branch train.

Glover

image.jpeg

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Diesel workings on the West Cork seems to have been somewhat convoluted with a mixture of main line goods and passenger and branch line workings. The 1960 timetabe appears to have required 4 C Class to work the mainline goods and branch line connecting services with a single railcar set operating the main-line passenger services.

The Drimoleague-Baltimore line appears to have been worked in two sections with the majority of trains originating and terminating in Skibberreen.

This required two locomotives and sets of coaching stock(usually one coach!) with one C Class based at Skibbereen, the second loco appears to work down from Albert Quay on the 7:30am  "Drimoleague Goods" which continues as the 1:45 Mixed Train to Skibbereen only having connected with the 12:15 Railcar from Cork. The Skibbereen loco then works to 3:00pm passenger to the Junction where it connects with the Up passenger to Cork.  The mixed then departs for the Junction at 3:50pm where it transforms into the 4:40pm goods to Cork. Its possible that the Cork railcar has brought up a van or two from Bantry to attach to the 4:40 goods.

CIE seems to have rotated the West Cork C Class locos between main line goods and branch line duties rather than allocating a particular loco to a specific duty. The Drimoleague Goods seems to have been used as a means of returning the Skibbereen & Clonakilty locos to Cork for servicing and maintenance avoiding light engine mileage.

Clonakilty was unusual in its final years with an un-balanced passenger workings with a single down passenger working from the Junction and two Up passenger workings with connections for Cork. The branch lost its down passenger service when the branch went over to C Class working to allow the branch loco work an as-required goods on the Timoleague and Courtmacsharry branch.

Personally I find trying to capture this type of operation far more interesting than watching trains go-round and round or trying to capture intensive main line operation, running a train dropping a couple of wagons off at a wayside siding or better still a branch or trip working into a main line train can keep an operator happily occupied for quite some time  

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4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In the above, and in general, a column heading "D E" meant a diesel locomotive of A, B101 or C class. In the case of West Cork, this would be "C" - the other two classes never set foot there in service, though an "A" did a trial run light once. "D T" means "Diesel train", which meant an AEC railcar set. A column headed "J" meant a J15 steam engine or, on the Midland (e.g. the Ballaghaderreen branch) a J18. A column with nothing at the top could be anything, steam or diesel. On the West Clare, "D T" meant a Walker railcar.

The J Classification for steam locos was part of GSR  load classification system for steam locos  rather than a reference to a particular class of steam loco.

With the run down of steam by the late 50s the load classification system was virtually redundant the majority of steam locos apart from a reasonable number of Standard Goods had been withdrawn from service or scrapped.

The J Classification included a number of classes of similar tractive effort or pulling power including a number of the larger more powerful 4-4-0s in addition to medium powered GSR, GSWR, MGWR & DSER 0-6-0 goods locos.

A--- 5'6" Woolwich 2-6-0

B--- 6' Woolwich 2-6-0---500 Class--5'6"-4-6-0, 646 Class (MGWR B) 0-6-0

C---400 Class 4-6-0----ex GSWR & DSER inside cylinder 2-6-0 classes ex-MGWR Avonside 0-6-0, ex-GSWR 257 (J4) 0-6-0

E-- Medium power 4-4-0 & 0-6-0 Classes including ex-MGWR 623 Cattle Engines, DSER 442 "Standard Goods"  misc. GSWR & DSER Classes.

J---Ex-GSWR 321 (D2) 6'7"4-4-0 MGWR  540 & 545 Class 4-4-0s,  GSR/GSWR/MGWR "Standard Goods" 710, 700,567,573,594,234, 101

L--Ex GSWR & MGWR  medium 4-4-0s including 333/342 5'6" Rosslare Bogies, MGWR 536 4-4-0 & ex-WLWR 0-6-0 (Shannon)

M--Ex-GSWR Coey medium power 6'7" 4-4-0s ex DSER 6'0" 4-4-0 Classes

O--Ex GSWR & MGWR small 4-4-0 & 2-4-0 inc 60 Class 4-4-0 & 650 Class 2-4-0

R-Ex GSWR & MGWR light passenger classes incl Kerry Bogies, Achill Bogies and 52 Class 4-4-0

A separate classification was later introduced for the 800 Class.

Theoretically the 5'6" wheeled Woolwick had the highest load classification, while the much larger 400 Class 4-6-0s were grouped in with the inside cylinder moguls and largest 0-6-0 Classes.

The ex GSWR 321 & MGWR 540 & 546 Class 4-4-0s were rated at load Class J having a similar tractive effort to the various  "Standard Goods" Classes . The large MGWR 4-4-0 were regularly used on cattle trains after the Woolwich took over main line passenger duties from the late 1920s.

There does not appear to have been a lot to choose between the locos in power rating L&M the ex-GSWR locos were basically similar medium power 4-4-0s the smaller wheeled 333 & 342 Class had the edge in terms of higher traffic than the 6'7" version and were mainly used on steeply graded lines like the South Eastern Section and Rosslare Route while the larger wheeled locos worked the more easily graded lines in the Kingsbridge-Waterford-Limerick triangle.

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6 hours ago, Glover said:

I agree fully with your approach. If you want to model Irish railways in a particular time period and geographical area, it will require quite an amount of modifying, kit building and indeed scratch building. Therefore, it makes sense to establish just what rolling stock you need ( unless you plan to live to 250 or win the lottery!).

I want to build a CIE branch train to run through Pettigo on the Bundoran branch ( imagining that it lasted to 1963 as a joint CIE/UTA operation). To that end, I've looked at as many photos as possible but as you know, there weren't very many branches left by then.

However, I did come across a couple of interesting photos on Roger Joanes Flickr taken at Birr in September 1960. You in fact showed an extract from the WTT, for 1959 I think, on your thread. The basic service appears to have been 2 up and 2 down mixed trains per day. In the photos, the loco is C class MetroVick number C233, in green livery. My interest was in the two coach passenger element of the mixed train: what looks like a GSWR/GSR non-corridor coach and what I'm 99% certain is an ex GNR J11 tri-compo brake! I've built two of those yokes!

Therefore, with a previous conversion of the old Hornby GWR clearstorey, I have my CIE branch train.

Glover

image.jpeg

Precisely, totally, exactly what I will be trying to recreate. Same period.

In your scenario, if you even push it out to 1964/5, you can include an occasional brand new Craven or 141, and obviously even in 1963, black'n'tan carriages are just starting to appear.

In your scenario, old GSWR stock, Bredins, laminates of various types and Park Royals will be interspersed with much (if not most) of a myriad of old GNR types, variously in brown, navy & cream, CIE green in black'n'tan, while the odd laminate is still very dirty "silver".

You've old GNR parcel vans in brown or green, and brand new CIE "tin vans", and even an occasional old GSWR 6-wheeled full brake all possible.

My own scenario is based somewhere in the "Deep South" - maybe Waterford, Co. Cork or Kerry, so ex-GNR stock while possible is less likely. About 1959/60 an old wooden brown GNR coach appeared on the West Cork system briefly. I might eventually have a green or black'n'tan K15......

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