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murrayec

Class 44 CIE D19 Gauge O

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Posted (edited)

Here is another scratch built model by Mr B Kelly, a D19, one of my faves! it's in my workshop for coupling rods, break gear, electrical pick-ups and a few other bits.

As it came.

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After measuring up, researching a few photos and doing the drawings parts were cut out of .5mm nickel silver- wheel weights, coupling rods, break gear....

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The chassis was a little fat, the wheels were locking up when assembled and one axle was slightly out of line, only noticed when fitting the coupling rods- one side would go on but not the other! So that set of bearings needed a bit of adjustment and the other set had a .9mm skim taken off the faces.

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Some of the chassis screws were cheese head so I replaced them with counter-sunk and holes for the break hanger spigots were drilled in the frames.

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Jigged up to solder the bearings back in.

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Loco break gear coming together, these locos had double hangers with the shoe sandwiched between. The shoes are cut from Tufnol and brass .7mm pins were used to assemble.

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Breaks on.

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Breaks off. The assembly can be sprung off for painting and removing the wheels.

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After fitting the coupling rods I noticed they fouled the underside of running board!, so a few 1.2mm brass spacers were prepared and soldered onto the top of the frames. I also made a motor strap to lift the motor up at an angle and save space in the cab.

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The bogie truck was then tackled- needing a pivot, spring and a bit of side play, also going to get electrical pick-ups installed. A deep hex nut was soldered to the underside to take the pivot bar on top and the pick-up plate on the underside. I also replace the frame spacer screws from cheese-head to counter-sunk and installed a plastic washer behind each wheel.

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A pivot bar was turned up on the lathe and tapped 8BA to fit into that hex nut in the bogie frame.

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The pick-ups were then installed on the underside.

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This is the full pick-up system, diver wheels & bogie.

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A sideways slot was milled in the frame spacer to give the bogie side-play and a .5mm brass angle plate was soldered onto the bogie front to stop full rotation. The frames also required some mod at the rear wheel arch to allow clearance.

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Up and running.

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The tender was next, break hanger holes drilled, and at front- these are parts for the draw bar, the brass to be soldered between the frames and the plastic strip drilled as the draw bar with the little brass bush to allow it pivot on the back of the loco.

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Breaks going on and draw bar assembly installed.

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Breaks done.

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The tender had its mounting bolts broken off, so some repair needed, also spacers are needed to level the tender with the loco- using two blocks of hardwood!

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Done.

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Draw bar drilled and installed, this is the body mounting screw, the front end is held with a brass tong soldered to the back of the buffer beam.

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And its done, going back to its crew for a bit of painting and maybe some coal!

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Eoin

 

 

Edited by murrayec
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Lovely work Eoin - and perfect colour. Love the brake gear - what kind of material did you use to make the rodding? Looks like a useful idea for a future build...  

I’m anticipating a similar issue with rod fouling on my current GSWR 4-coupled project so will remember the idea of spacers....

thanks for sharing this inspiring work. I do like those spidery 4-4-0s that roamed the south and west ! 

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2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

what kind of material did you use to make the rodding? Looks like a useful idea for a future build... 

@Galteemore I used .5mm nickel silver sheet and .6mm NS wire for the hangers and rodding.

 

1 hour ago, Georgeconna said:

Very Strange buffers there too with a block behind each unit.

@Georgeconna Yes, not all had these going by the photos I found, earlier photos of the class don't have them so I assume they re-used other buffers later which needed to be extended??....

Eoin

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Posted (edited)

Another class job Murrayer, you should take this up full time 🤧

 

Edited by WRENNEIRE
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The blocks behind the front buffers seems to have been a standard feature on standard GSWR passenger tank and tender locos including 0-4-4BT, Ivatt & Coey 2-4-2T & 4-4-2T, D14,17 & 19 4-4-0 and some of the larger Coey 4-4-0 classes.

The  designed the brake gear for my D17 on similar principal to No 44 but is likely to be a lot more fiddly to assemble in 4mm scale.

The loco number brings back a vague memory of an engine-man's song.

"The Gallant 44 her buffers were never wore.........."

 

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Posted (edited)

Yes 44 apparently pulled off a major exploit in piloting an express, which led to her immortalisation in verse. Heresy perhaps but I wish that one of these ancient 4-4-0s had made it into preservation in place of one of the J15s! 

I acquired separate buffers from an English supplier for my Ivatt F6 which will hopefully convey something of that boxy look.

One small point on livery though, as I’m researching this myself right now. I think GSR numberplates were black with the number and border picked out in red. Oddly, the buffer stocks were black. The front cover of Clements McMahon bears this out, which is confirmed in other reading I’ve done. It’s a rather unusual  style! 

483B9534-0F3F-4E7C-A080-16B286AA8C14.jpeg

Edited by Galteemore
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3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

One small point on livery though, as I’m researching this myself right now. I think GSR numberplates were black with the number and border picked out in red. Oddly, the buffer stocks were black. The front cover of Clements McMahon bears this out, which is confirmed in other reading I’ve done. It’s a rather unusual  style!

I'm sure when the crew are doing the paint touch up they will take this into consideration- the plates are held on by 'Stixall' a silicone type glue n sealer so they can be removed if painting changes are required.

Eoin

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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Yes 44 apparently pulled off a major exploit in piloting an express, which led to her immortalisation in verse. Heresy perhaps but I wish that one of these ancient 4-4-0s had made it into preservation in place of one of the J15s! 

I acquired separate buffers from an English supplier for my Ivatt F6 which will hopefully convey something of that boxy look.

 

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There is nothing specific to 44 in "A Decade of Steam" 

Bill Mc Donnell writes about his experience working with the class as a cleaner and later fireman while stationed in Cork. Besides branch line passenger services, the class were used on pilot duties at Cork which included occasionally assisting main line passenger trains to Blarney. McDonnell writes that the hard slogging assisting trains to Blarney left the D19s "short-winded" with the water level dangerously low in the boiler. They could recover pressure quickly but it took the injectors a long time to restore boiler water level. Drew Donaldson also observed in a Model Railways article(1973-4?) on his small 4-4-0s that Kingsbridge Carriage Pilot duties left the D19s winded and built this characteristic into his model of the Class, Drew built several small GSWR 4-4-0s including D14, 17 & 19 and the ex WLWR D15 Class. 

 

Edited by Mayner
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Posted (edited)

Re the GSR loco livery....

I've seen this, and the commissioned paintings front and back on that book are as absolutely superb as the contents. However, unless a few were ever done like that, eyewitness reports of a number of individuals who were regulars in Inchicore were all specific that plates were usually plain grey, but the raised rim and numbers could be -

(a) painted over - not highlighted at all. This is evident in the occasional pic showing a (occasionally!) newly painted loco!

(b) picked out by rubbing to bare metal - rare, but reported as seen

(c) most often, picked out in pale yellow or cream.

Photos bear this out too.

The book also mentions black roofs and smokeboxes. Again, eyewitnesses (all of the ones I refer to now dead) report plain grey; their point bring that in Ireland and Britain (but, as a matter of interest, not mainland Europe), a smokebox in anything other than black was otherwise unheard of.

I once owned a plate off a Midland "E" class, GSR No. 560. It was painted grey. On scratching the paint with a nail, there was older grey underneath, not black. Sadly I sold it years ago. 

Where this may be coming from is the fact that the GSWR had black-backed numberplates not only when their engines were black (pre-1915) but when they were green before that.

About 1962, I think, maybe '61, one J15 was repainted grey in Cork. Since about 1955/6, the few cie repaints of steam engines got a coat of black. But what was interesting to livery-nerds like me, was that this time this engine stood out as it had, in the eyes of the witness, "uniquely", grey paint but black smokebox.

jhbSnr recalled seeing a J15 literally being pushed out of the paint shop, still smelling of paint rather than hot oil, and he was curious to see the numbers just rubbed bare metal. Upon asking if they were to be painted, he was told no. He had not seen one like that before, but did subsequently.

Dirt and weathering often made smokeboxes look darker - we saw this with 186 in recent years. The late Billy Lohan of Galway assured me all was grey, this corresponding with what others had told me too.

It's notoriously hard to define colour from a black and white photo, especially if the subject matter is dirty! However, clean locos existed, and sometimes can be clearly seen in photos, not least in the excellent "big green book". A black plate with red numerals would definitely show up as a much darker patch on many photos - red always shows up pretty dark on a b & w photo, never mind black. And this isn't the case.

I have alluded before, though, to one of the few exceptions: in late CIE days, two of the 800s got red background plates, and at least one, maybe two, of the Passage 2.4.2Ts on the C & L had non-standard SIZED plates, plus red numbers, in the late 50s. But that seems a one-off; no colour photos I've ever seen show red numerals anywhere on a GSR / CIE loco. 

Wheels and motion were certainly grey too.

Cab interiors varied. Some were also all-grey, adding to the ethereal dullness of the livery! Other were a mid brown internally, roof underneath included. Others still had the more conventional mid-brown lower and cream upper, though I wonder was that more in CIE times.

Interesingly, Fry painted one model in a style similar to the painting, but he was known to take liberties with liveries, despite his protestations to the contrary! Eight-coupled No 900 is in Maedb's fully lined green on his model, but it spent all its life grey. The late, great, Drew Donaldson liked CIE lined green so much that he painted almost ALL his models that colour, whether they ever carried it or not - and most didn't!

Edited by jhb171achill
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Posted (edited)

ALL the GSR/CIE number plates on display at IRRS hq are red numerals/border and black background and a few of the lamps/other plates plastered in one or the other, or both colours. Possibly where the artist got the notion they were to be red/black.

There must have been a special on red and black tins of paint.

Edited by minister_for_hardship
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Posted (edited)

Interesting how perceptions can creep in of how liveries were compared to the reality. SLNC nameplates are another - those currently on display in Headhunters are red with brass letters. A fortunate colour photo at the right angle - and the written testimony of the last CME - actually shows that SLNC locos had black numberplates with border and lettering picked out in red. Rather cheerfully, the coupling rods were painted red too.

Edited by Galteemore
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3 hours ago, Galteemore said:

Interesting how perceptions can creep in of how liveries were compared to the reality. SLNC nameplates are another - those currently on display in Headhunters are red with brass letters. A fortunate colour photo at the right angle - and the written testimony of the last CME - actually shows that SLNC locos had black numberplates with border and lettering picked out in red. Rather cheerfully, the coupling rods were painted red too.

Some were red in reality, others black!

I’ve a list somewhere - must delve. I know we’ve a select SLNCR following here nowadays!

This is exactly why I keep detailed notes of livery stuff. To many modellers it doesn’t matter a flying damn what colour something is or was, as long as it’s well engineered or built accurately. As a child I played with Senior’s coarse scale O gauge layout (Eoin, I still have track for you that I mentioned months ago when finally clearing his attic!). In scenic, loco building and carriage building terms it was indeed coarse, but it was fully and properly signalled. To others, all manner of different aspects are what they get primary enjoyment from, and that is the great thing about the hobby. Nobody is right or wrong, it’s just one’s opinion.

For me, I’ve my own preferences, just one being livery accuracy. Some people want every single detail as accurate as possible, and if anyone has access to whatever detail they’re looking for, then it’s well worth passing on.

I suspect the red (yes, much in the IRRS is the wrong colour - quite brightly painted makers plates, company crests mounted on the wrong colour background, etc), is one of these. I agree with others it looks well, but so does the dark MGWR-shade blue that Fry put on his model of a GNR “S” class in Malahide. 

The lined green on 461 looks great, much brighter than all-over grey. But it never carried it, and the green is a shade off anyway.

None of this matters, I know this perfectly well, in the long run. If the choice in Cultra was between painting 800 pink and amber, the Donegal railcar tartan and lime green, or scrapping both, I think we’d all be out with the paint pots! 

But I do feel that where possible, preservationists, historians and archivists do a service to those who seek accuracy in such things, like many modellers.

Anyway; back to my self-enforced confinement.....!

 

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Posted (edited)

Britain certainly does. Even in museums and top-line preservation here, it has always been the case that strict accuracy takes a back seat, if it even registers at all.

Now, before I am taken to task by those who say, "if you're that fussed about what livery something is painted in preservation, stop whinging and being so arrogant, and get your sleeves rolled up (and possibly, your WALLET out) and get a bit of work done", I get that.

I have never sought to criticise ANYONE in the preservation movement, being VERY acutely aware of what is involved in all aspects of it, from paperwork*, engineering work*, restoration*, certification*, dealing with railway companies*, endless meetings*, financial planning and record keeping*, trackwork*, posting out membership forms*, planning tours*, to operating dining cars or crewing trains. You'll notice that all but the last two are marked*; these are tasks done by dedicated people, often in Dickensian working conditions, week after week. I have been one of them, from age 17 onwards. I started as one of what one of our premier preservation organisations calls a "griceling" (young "gricer"!) - a young and enthusiastic, but inexperienced volunteer.

And my first job was to paint a carriage - entirely the wrong colour....!

Had anyone said so, my answer would have been to the effect "Yeah, I know, but that's the paint that man over there gave me". Later, as financial person, I was once faced with a dilemma. When the RPSI was still running wooden carriages, I was once approached by the then carriage man at Whitehead. he had recently asked me for a budget to buy paint to cover two or maybe three NCC coaches in the running set, which were getting extremely tatty indeed. Finance was tight, as it so often still is. He told me he could get plain maroon for about two thirds of the normal price, so he could paint three coaches for the price of two. One was 1287, an old GSWR corridor now used as a "tarry" at Downpatrick, but then at Whitehead. he got the cheap paint and painted 1287. Some of us here will recall - it turned out almost purple. It was REAL cheap stuff! Suffice to say, the two NCC's in traffic ended up with proper maroon......

So when I refer to what, in preservation, is correct or not, I mean no disrespect to anyone involved in it - I am quite simply stating a fact, aimed just at those of us - and there ARE many - who genuinely want to know what colour something really was.

I grew up in a household with several hundred mounted railway crests on every wall, most on actual original paint. So I have seen the green of the Highland Railway of Scotland, the brown of the coaches of the Wrexham, Mold & Connahs Quay Railway, the maroon (darkish LMS shade) of the Clogher Valley, the green of the Blessington tramway and the green of CIE, close up, every day, from age 0 to a few years ago. I've seen these colours in daylight, dull, bright, sunlight, artificial light, the lot, so I am in the lucky position to be familiar with them.

Since as a result of this, from an early age, I have always had a keen interest in such things and took every opportunity through my life to quiz as many people as I could about what was what in the past. Some people have a very good artistic eye for colour, others have little. I knew of a now-deceased railwayman who was a brilliant engineer, but could hardly remember whether Maedb was green, pink or tartan. The first thing anyone sees in any object is its shape and colour. Thus, to me at least, livery detail is essential.

Hence my interest; apologies for the rant.

I am aware that not everyone shares this interest, but this does not ever mean that people like me disrespect them or what they do; far from it. The efforts of ALL our preservationists are to be appreciated and welcomed. If something is the wrong colour, big deal - it can always be repainted. But it's important that (a) the correct information is out there, and (b) confusion is not created, perpetuated or encouraged because of an earlier incorrect assumption.

I think it was a former curator of Cultra who very famously said, and he was 1000% right, "Scrap an important locomotive, and there'll be a complaint. Paint it the wrong colour, and there will be World War Three!".

Cultra, the RPSI, Downpatrick, Drew Donaldson and Cyril Fry, AND ME, all painted things both real and model in ways they never appeared. Ideally, restoration jobs would all be correct, but as long as the info is out there, I feel that whatever little I may be able to contribute at this stage of life, well there it is......!

To go back on track, Eoin's model.....an absolute beauty, as all will agree!

Edited by jhb171achill
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Posted (edited)

Yes I agree John some heritage railways do get it wrong, while on the other hand some railways try to hard to get it right. I recall the horror that was shown to the guys at Lakeside years ago when one of the Fairburn tanks appeared in Caledonian Blue and the other in LNWR Blackberry Black. (Not done sir, not done) I happen to like it, after all they where not owned by BR at the time and as you say, if the owner wants to paint his steam locos in his colours who are we to argue, Many heritage narrow gauge steam locos do not carry the livery they worked in, but it is at the whim of the owner what colours it has.

I don't understand why Irish locos where painted grey, unless it was a case of cheapness in the paint,  or was the first one a mistake and they decided to carry on with that colour?

Colin   

 

 

Edited by Colin R
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The grey originated in Inchicore Works when in order to cope with wartime economy, the GSWR started painting locos a flat overall grey, replacing the attractive shiny black lined in read and white which was current. It was quick and cheap. They just sloshed it over the whole thing. Not only no lining, but no lettering, and numberplates not picked out and polished. This appeared, as far as can be ascertained in 1915, but no later than 1918.

When the GSWR became part of the overall GSR, all companies within the new GSR (i.e. virtually every single one, broad and narrow gauge, within the Irish Free State), did likewise. The GSWR was the "dominant" partner in the new GSR, and by degrees much work from other companies was transferred to Inchicore, so on went the grey. Major work on narrow gauge locos was no longer done locally, the engine would go onto a transporter and go up to Dublin in its nice old "company" livery, to return shorn of any brass nameplates it had had, and painted grey. Virtually all nameplates went into the melting pot too.

When the GSR became part of CIE in 1945, this persisted. The result was that all-over grey locos could be seen from 1915 to the end of CIE steam in 1963.

In GSR days, literally EVERYTHING got the grey, bar the 3 x 800 class. In early CIE days, suburban tank locos, main line passenger and (some) mixed traffic locos were given lined green. After about 1956/7, while few steam locos were repainted, many repaints in those last few years (and of only a few classes by then) were black. 

So it was economy mostly, but it then became, as they say nowadays, "the thing". Just as wagons were assumed to be grey, so were locos. Never mind the polished maroon of the NCC, dark green of the LLSR & BCDR, bright red of Donegal and the famous blue of the GNR; Inchicore was GREY. Limerick Works was GREY!

Dull as ditchwater, and disliked by many, but nobody ever worried about cattle trucks being all grey! I'm sure they'd have looked well in varnished maroon too.........!

Addendum: Among Cyril Fry's artefact collection are a number of GNR cast-iron station signs, painted bright blue and silver!

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Thanks for the explanation John.

Well I now have a reason for using all that Tamiya grey paint, I have six different pots ranging from a dark to a light grey:-

XF-20, XF-22, XF-24, XF-25, XF-53 and XF-66

I think they where done for the old Japanese WW2 ship models, the great thing is as they are all different, so I can paint a wagon in one colour and a second wagon in a different shade and it is all ok.

Having seen some colour photos of some of the Donegal vans, they vary in shades as well, so if done on a subtle basis, with the except of you guys, no one else is going to know if it is right or wrong.  

Colin

 

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I have just read on wikipeadia that white lead based paints (it is the basis of all paints up to the 1950's)i where considerd to be dangerous by 1912, so why did Inchicore continue to use white lead based grey paint? I understand that at the time no one really took the problems seriously so anyone who was painting the locos could have had a shorter working life.

As for adding pigments Black was expensive at the time, the second cheapest colour was Blue, so I wonder did Inchicore ever experiment with a blue coloured steam loco?

Colin R

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1 hour ago, seagoebox said:

Inchicore overall grey lives on.. on the 071's, strange how some things stay the same !

Tis very true indeed, seagoebox, and nobody bats an eyelid! Personally, I never liked the silver and black at all - I think the grey looks better. Like in steam days, it's all-encompassing, bogies and all - same reason - ease and convenience of application and maintenance. The modern 071 grey is just a shade lighter than in steam days. Must be something about Inchicore!

 

1 hour ago, Colin R said:

I have just read on wikipeadia that white lead based paints (it is the basis of all paints up to the 1950's)i where considerd to be dangerous by 1912, so why did Inchicore continue to use white lead based grey paint? I understand that at the time no one really took the problems seriously so anyone who was painting the locos could have had a shorter working life.

As for adding pigments Black was expensive at the time, the second cheapest colour was Blue, so I wonder did Inchicore ever experiment with a blue coloured steam loco?

Colin R

I have no information about Inchicore testing blue, but while the paint might have been cheaper, it tended to fade. that's why the MGWR abandoned it almost as soon as adopting it. Maybe the used paints of not particularly good quality.

Each railway had its own paint laboratory. One of those I took notes from was the late Marcus Bailie-Gage, who was a former Works Manager in Dundalk, and he had cut his teeth in the paint lab there. You might think, "what's the big deal? Just go to Woodie's and buy a load of paint!" - but in those days paint was comparatively expensive compared with today. railways took care of their corporate images too, so good quality paint of a consistent shade was deemed to be very important. Marcus told me of experiments conducted to get the right shade of brown for GNR carriages. They tried different pigments to make the SAME colour, then subjected them to tests to simulate weathering, wear and tear, and fading. Respective costs would be analysed too, before telling the paint shop what to do. The same applied in Inchicore.

Many urban myths have grown up - there were a million types of GNR blue, a million types of CIE green, a million shades of red or maroon with the GSR, or NCC, or whatever, a million shades of CIE coach orange / tan. This simply isn't true. There were indeed variations, and some may have arisen accidentally, but each company has always striven to replicate a particular shade. For the purist, these variations are by now well documented, though to be fair they were not always, so a correct shade can be found out easily enough for those interested in such things.

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