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Posted (edited)

Yes. If a Belfast factory was making linen sheets to be sold in Limerick, it’s more than likely that a Belfast railway company’s wagon would be used. Old photographs of UK railways certainly show lone wagons ending up hundreds of miles away from home.

Edited by Galteemore
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13 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes. If a Belfast factory was making linen sheets to be sold in Limerick, it’s more than likely that a Belfast railway company’s wagon would be used. Old photographs of UK railways certainly show lone wagons ending up hundreds of miles away from home.

Very much so. I my Achill book, there's a picture of a DSER wagon at Achill, and I saw some pics in West Cork recently showing two GNR vans in an up goods train from Bantry or Skibbereen heading towards Cork. You don't get any further away from the GNR than that!

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20 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes. If a Belfast factory was making linen sheets to be sold in Limerick, it’s more than likely that a Belfast railway company’s wagon would be used. Old photographs of UK railways certainly show lone wagons ending up hundreds of miles away from home.

 

6 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Very much so. I my Achill book, there's a picture of a DSER wagon at Achill, and I saw some pics in West Cork recently showing two GNR vans in an up goods train from Bantry or Skibbereen heading towards Cork. You don't get any further away from the GNR than that!

Many thanks, chaps, that's great to know - it's always nice to be able to introduce a little variety! It just means I'll need to do more research on the right vehicles for my chosen period!

With kindest regards,

Mark

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Regarding the green for the MGWR brake vans, no certain info seems to have survived as to the shade, however, I recall being told - possibly by Bob Clements but I do not remember - that it was a "mid" green, so the model above would be certainly good enough for me.

I have today been able to date that picture of the MGWR van above. It was taken in 1939, by which time it STILL hasn't been repainted in GSR markings. This means that it has not seen a paintbrush for at least fifteen years.

Despite that, apart from some obvious signs of peeling, it appears to be in pretty good condition, leading me to think it was probably repainted last just as the Midland was becoming the GSR. This, also, would explain the lack of company markings. Mind you, to be obsessively pedantic, it still doesn't explain why "No." is in front of the number - this was not a normal MGWR trait.

The green colour on guard's vans is believed to have not survived "austerity" and other livery changes in 1918, so it is probable, or at any rate possible, that it is grey.

I'm just thinking I'll put that pic in the Clifden book... will ping it to the publisher now, and he will silently curse me for upsetting the page layout......!

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Posted (edited)

I beleive that the pic of the gaurds van in a 1899 series and they were withdrawn in the 30s as the newer Midland stock and older southern had taken over there dutys. As for @Galteemore  his model of a midland brake van was withdrawn in 1954/55and the GSWR/GNRI took over. If you are doing 50/60s (in case you change you're mind) you need a rake of GNRI ballast wagons as they were common place.

Edited by Midland Man
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As a general source of MGWR branch line reference information, would it be worthwhile trying to track down a copy of Padraig O'Cuimin's "The Baronial Lines of the Midland Great Western Railway: Loughrea and Ballinrobe"?

Thanks,

Mark

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1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Regarding the green for the MGWR brake vans, no certain info seems to have survived as to the shade, however, I recall being told - possibly by Bob Clements but I do not remember - that it was a "mid" green, so the model above would be certainly good enough for me.

I have today been able to date that picture of the MGWR van above. It was taken in 1939, by which time it STILL hasn't been repainted in GSR markings. This means that it has not seen a paintbrush for at least fifteen years.

Despite that, apart from some obvious signs of peeling, it appears to be in pretty good condition, leading me to think it was probably repainted last just as the Midland was becoming the GSR. This, also, would explain the lack of company markings. Mind you, to be obsessively pedantic, it still doesn't explain why "No." is in front of the number - this was not a normal MGWR trait.

The green colour on guard's vans is believed to have not survived "austerity" and other livery changes in 1918, so it is probable, or at any rate possible, that it is grey.

I'm just thinking I'll put that pic in the Clifden book... will ping it to the publisher now, and he will silently curse me for upsetting the page layout......!

Hi @jhb171achill,

thank you once again for the info - it's absolutely fascinating stuff and already I'm regretting not having dipped my toe in the water years ago! I definitely feel one of these brake vans coming on - I just need to source some axleguards, axles and wheels from the suppliers already so kindly recommended.....

Kindest regards,

Mark

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

I beleive that the pic of the gaurds van in a 1899 series and they were withdrawn in the 30s as the newer Midland stock and older southern had taken over there dutys. As for @Galteemore  his model of a midland brake van was withdrawn in 1954/55and the GSWR/GNRI took over. If you are doing 50/60s (in case you change you're mind) you need a rake of GNRI ballast wagons as they were common place.

Hi MM,

thank you for the extra info - I'll probably stick with the 1900-1905 period, buuuuut who knows - I could find myself building at least some "modern" stock!

With kind regards,

Mark

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55 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

As a general source of MGWR branch line reference information, would it be worthwhile trying to track down a copy of Padraig O'Cuimin's "The Baronial Lines of the Midland Great Western Railway: Loughrea and Ballinrobe"?

Thanks,

Mark

Yes it’s an interesting book with lots of background material. I’ve attached a pic of the contents page.

03C545D0-551F-4B5F-B095-E02B35BBC5B5.jpeg

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26 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Yes it’s an interesting book with lots of background material. I’ve attached a pic of the contents page.

03C545D0-551F-4B5F-B095-E02B35BBC5B5.jpeg

Many thanks @Galteemore, that's greatly appreciated! I found a copy with Martin Bott, who specialises in railway books, which has been duly been ordered!

Kindest regards,

Mark

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No problem. I used it to inform the signalling arrangements on my layout - ie none! Rosses Point is worked as Ballinrobe was.

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39 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

No problem. I used it to inform the signalling arrangements on my layout - ie none! Rosses Point is worked as Ballinrobe was.

Excellent! I shall look forward to receiving that! Along with all the others I'm eagerly awaiting 🤔

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Show like Blackrock would have a copy or two. A IRRS journal Irish railways in pictures MGWR could be available if you ask for it. If you're are ever in the Eire go to Castlerea and go to hells kitchen pub as the lab who owns it is railway mad and loves the MGWR.

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Galteemore said:

That's definitely into "ouch" territory! I'll have to sell something to fund it 😄

Edited by 2996 Victor
Technological breakdown! Now hopefully sorted.....
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1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

Show like Blackrock would have a copy or two. A IRRS journal Irish railways in pictures MGWR could be available if you ask for it. If you're are ever in the Eire go to Castlerea and go to hells kitchen pub as the lab who owns it is railway mad and loves the MGWR.

I want to get in touch with the IRRS, so could definitely ask.

Visiting Eire is something that I've long wanted to do, so that sounds like a definite "must do"!

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Hi Mark

I was intrigued by the name you use - you obviously like Bagnall locos?

I can supply the IRRS (London)'s MGWR picture book at its original cover price (£2.95) plus postage (about a quid at the moment). It will be from The Syndicate's stock. FYI, The dubiously-named Syndicate is a small group of UK based Irish enthusiasts who have raised funds for Irish preservation for half a century.

If you are interested in the GSWR loco book, I am pretty certain we've got that as well - again at Cover Price (£30 - £35).

Just Message me with your interests.

Leslie

 

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I would recommend joining the IRRS anyway, Victor, even before you come to Ireland. Several issues a year of their "Journal" which contains records of what is "current affairs" on the railways, going back to when the Society was founded over seventy years ago. It also contains historical articles and features.

The Society published a few books of its own - picture albums - some years ago. One featured the MGWR. I have a copy  I could lend you, but I'd need it back eventually. It is possible they might have a copy if you contact them via their website.  Other writings on the Midland would be "Midland Great Western Railway" by W E (Ernie) Shepherd and the late Padraig O Cuimín's "The Baronial Lines of the MGWR" which is about the Ballinrobe and Loughrea branches. When he wrote it, the Loughrea line was still open, though not for much longer, but he brings it up to date - and a re-write of this book will be forthcoming in a couple of years which will bring it up to closure and beyond. If I may mention the thing I did on the Achill branch, "Rails to Achill", and "Rails Through Connemara" which is now with the publisher - it was due to hit the shelves sometime between now and June, but the virus has stymied that.... it'll be out when it's out!

Many articles in the IRRS deal with matters Midland, and in order to fully understand their locomotives, an absolute must, albeit not a cheap one, is "Locomotives of the GSR", the definitive "bible" of GSR / CIE steam locomotives, by Michael McMahon and Jeremy Clements.

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Posted (edited)

The IRRS jornal is "Irish railways in pictures" whitch I was kindly given when I joined the society. I bouncing around with a topic for the journal about Kilbeggan race course sidings.

Edited by Midland Man
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Wow, you look away for a couple of days and suddenly there are two full pages of gold dust on the MGW. Well done Victor/Mark for starting it and everyone else for contributing!

 Can't add much myself, despite having a J26, G2 and four six wheel coaches on my CV. The contributors above have been very helpful in me building them.

 However, David Jenkinson's Carriage Modelling Made Easy (Wild Swan) is my Bible for passenger stock, while the Alphagraphix six wheel chassis is ideal for sitting plasticard bodies on.

 My Arigna Town layout, now being rebuilt into Belmullet, was based on a protected branch to the Arigna mines from the SLNCR. Neil Sprink's history shows there were several schemes, including at least one from the Burma Road too. Given the SLNC's poverty, a joint scheme with the MGW didn't seem too far fetched. Sligo, meanwhile had trains from GSW, MGW, WL&W and SLNCR in the early 1900s.

 Indeed Belmullet supposes the above four all contributed, to bring Canadian Pacific mails from Blacksod Bay. A certain Jonathan Beaumont of this parish very much responsible for my Imagineering in his splendid book Rails to Achill, which outlines a host of proposed schemes into deepest Mayo.

 The Steam Age in Ireland, by the Lord O'Neill, is an album of commissioned paintings, which give an idea of colours, though as JHB will council, they may not be all that accurate! Finally, for now, seems there Alphagraphix portfolio, especially the Tyrconnell etched brass kits, is not as large as was, mainly because Roger is concentrating on his British light railway lines and with my surname, I can hardly criticise...

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9 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Hi Mark

I was intrigued by the name you use - you obviously like Bagnall locos?

I can supply the IRRS (London)'s MGWR picture book at its original cover price (£2.95) plus postage (about a quid at the moment). It will be from The Syndicate's stock. FYI, The dubiously-named Syndicate is a small group of UK based Irish enthusiasts who have raised funds for Irish preservation for half a century.

If you are interested in the GSWR loco book, I am pretty certain we've got that as well - again at Cover Price (£30 - £35).

Just Message me with your interests.

Leslie

 

Hi Leslie,

many thanks for your post - I'm definitely interested in both if you have them, so I'll send you a PM shortly.

Re the Bagnalls, being a Somerset lad originally, I have a great fondness for 2994 Vulcan and 2996 Victor. These two did stalwart work on the West Somerset Railway in its' early preservation years, along with GWR Pannier Tank 6412, now on the South Devon Railway. The last time I saw Victor was around three years ago, on the Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway, while Vulcan appears to be at the Stephenson Railway Museum under a different name but bearing its original operator's running number..... Their sister was 2995 Valiant, of course, the three being named after the RAF's V-Bombers.

The three locomotives were originally used at the Port Talbot Steel Works, but when they went over to diesel traction, Vulcan and Victor were sold to Austin at Longbridge, and Valiant to the NCB until she developed firebox problems and was sold for scrap. Vulcan and Victor were sold to the West Somerset in 1973, and Victor hauled the first train when the line reopened in 1976.

Mnay thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

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9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I would recommend joining the IRRS anyway, Victor, even before you come to Ireland. Several issues a year of their "Journal" which contains records of what is "current affairs" on the railways, going back to when the Society was founded over seventy years ago. It also contains historical articles and features.

The Society published a few books of its own - picture albums - some years ago. One featured the MGWR. I have a copy  I could lend you, but I'd need it back eventually. It is possible they might have a copy if you contact them via their website.  Other writings on the Midland would be "Midland Great Western Railway" by W E (Ernie) Shepherd and the late Padraig O Cuimín's "The Baronial Lines of the MGWR" which is about the Ballinrobe and Loughrea branches. When he wrote it, the Loughrea line was still open, though not for much longer, but he brings it up to date - and a re-write of this book will be forthcoming in a couple of years which will bring it up to closure and beyond. If I may mention the thing I did on the Achill branch, "Rails to Achill", and "Rails Through Connemara" which is now with the publisher - it was due to hit the shelves sometime between now and June, but the virus has stymied that.... it'll be out when it's out!

Many articles in the IRRS deal with matters Midland, and in order to fully understand their locomotives, an absolute must, albeit not a cheap one, is "Locomotives of the GSR", the definitive "bible" of GSR / CIE steam locomotives, by Michael McMahon and Jeremy Clements.

Hi JHB,

thanks again for all your help and advice. I was "leaning" toward joining the IRRS and what you and others have said has convinced me that its the thing to do.

@leslie10646 has very kindly offered a copy of the MGWR Picture Book, which I'll be taking up, and I've found copies of Ernie Shepherd's and Padraic O'Cuimin's books, which I'm eagerly awaiting, as well as a copy of your own "Rails to Achill". I'll keep an eye out for "Connemara"! @Galteemore has very kindly provided a link to the GSR locomotives book as well.

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Wow, you look away for a couple of days and suddenly there are two full pages of gold dust on the MGW. Well done Victor/Mark for starting it and everyone else for contributing!

 Can't add much myself, despite having a J26, G2 and four six wheel coaches on my CV. The contributors above have been very helpful in me building them.

 However, David Jenkinson's Carriage Modelling Made Easy (Wild Swan) is my Bible for passenger stock, while the Alphagraphix six wheel chassis is ideal for sitting plasticard bodies on.

 My Arigna Town layout, now being rebuilt into Belmullet, was based on a protected branch to the Arigna mines from the SLNCR. Neil Sprink's history shows there were several schemes, including at least one from the Burma Road too. Given the SLNC's poverty, a joint scheme with the MGW didn't seem too far fetched. Sligo, meanwhile had trains from GSW, MGW, WL&W and SLNCR in the early 1900s.

 Indeed Belmullet supposes the above four all contributed, to bring Canadian Pacific mails from Blacksod Bay. A certain Jonathan Beaumont of this parish very much responsible for my Imagineering in his splendid book Rails to Achill, which outlines a host of proposed schemes into deepest Mayo.

 The Steam Age in Ireland, by the Lord O'Neill, is an album of commissioned paintings, which give an idea of colours, though as JHB will council, they may not be all that accurate! Finally, for now, seems there Alphagraphix portfolio, especially the Tyrconnell etched brass kits, is not as large as was, mainly because Roger is concentrating on his British light railway lines and with my surname, I can hardly criticise...

Hi David,

thank you for your kind words, all the more so given your exquisite creations! I'm eagerly following your Belmullet thread, as well as having avidly soaked up your Arigna thread over on RMWeb.

Thank you for the pointers regarding the David Jenkinson book, not one I've come across for some reason despite having many of Wild Swan's modelling-orientated titles and also The Steam Age In Ireland, bearing in mind the caveat you mention, of course! Interesting to know about the Alphagraphix chassis. Alphagraphix seem quite hard to track down, although I have an e-mail address to make first contact. Any plans for a layout based on the Good Colonel's empire?

Many thanks and very best regards,

Mark

Edited by 2996 Victor

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Dear All,

Although I've posted a "thank you" somewhere above, I feel I should do so again for all the additional kind words of support and all the help, advice and information that has been forthcoming. I realise that it will be of use to not just myself, but to everyone, but I can only say how overwhelmed I have been by the friendly, helpful, knowledgeable folk here on the Forum.

Thank you!

Stay safe and stay well.

With kindest regards,

Mark

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The two books you are offered GET THEM as bought are very hard to get. The pic book has plans for Broadstone the MGWR HQ an has a rare pic of the engine Luna in midland green (safely the pic is in black and white) there is also pics of Celtic the midlands best engine at Athlone for a stoping train. There is tons more. As for the GSR loco book I don't have it but I don't want to buy it online as I the feel of buying a book on the disipearing streets and book shops.

MM

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Been there, done it several times before I got the Irish bug. There were two 7mmNG essays - Hawkhurst High Weald and Cranbrook Town, which featured in Railway Modeller around 20-30 years ago and after that, Loose End, 7mm standard gauge, likewise in RM. Hawkhurst was broken up, but the other two sold as going concerns, though goodness knows what happened to them. That said, was reliably informed that Loose End made it to the same barn in France that housed Gordon Gravett's Ditchling Green. Fine company indeed!

 Before that there has been Oare, an EM gauge Col Stephens might have been, based on the Davington Light Railway, near Faversham. That went to about a dozen shows in the late '80s, but never made it into print. Diverse interests? You bet.

 Still have some of my 7mm standard gauge stock, notably Jane/Shannon, the George England Wantage tank that featured in an MRJ build it in stages series of articles by Laurie Griffin. Taught me a lot that little loco and still harbour ideas of doing a small layout just for it.

 By the by,  the Wantage Town track plan scales out at just seven feet, in 7mm scale. See Iain Rice's book on Light Railways - that is only four feet in EM! Shades of Fintona? Just the small problem of making the horse tram work...

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1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

The two books you are offered GET THEM as bought are very hard to get. The pic book has plans for Broadstone the MGWR HQ an has a rare pic of the engine Luna in midland green (safely the pic is in black and white) there is also pics of Celtic the midlands best engine at Athlone for a stoping train. There is tons more. As for the GSR loco book I don't have it but I don't want to buy it online as I the feel of buying a book on the disipearing streets and book shops.

MM

Thanks, MM, I'll definitely take your advice!

Best regards,

Mark

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28 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Been there, done it several times before I got the Irish bug. There were two 7mmNG essays - Hawkhurst High Weald and Cranbrook Town, which featured in Railway Modeller around 20-30 years ago and after that, Loose End, 7mm standard gauge, likewise in RM. Hawkhurst was broken up, but the other two sold as going concerns, though goodness knows what happened to them. That said, was reliably informed that Loose End made it to the same barn in France that housed Gordon Gravett's Ditchling Green. Fine company indeed!

 Before that there has been Oare, an EM gauge Col Stephens might have been, based on the Davington Light Railway, near Faversham. That went to about a dozen shows in the late '80s, but never made it into print. Diverse interests? You bet.

 Still have some of my 7mm standard gauge stock, notably Jane/Shannon, the George England Wantage tank that featured in an MRJ build it in stages series of articles by Laurie Griffin. Taught me a lot that little loco and still harbour ideas of doing a small layout just for it.

 By the by,  the Wantage Town track plan scales out at just seven feet, in 7mm scale. See Iain Rice's book on Light Railways - that is only four feet in EM! Shades of Fintona? Just the small problem of making the horse tram work...

Hi David,

I know what you mean about diverse interests! At the moment, I'm finishing off a rake of Cambrian Railways opens in 4mm/EM for a small layout I have planned, while I've got wagons from several other companies, S&DJR, Midland and the like, in almost-finished condition. Besides that, I've a plan for an Ashover Light Railway inglenook in 009 and I'm also planning a model of Stogumber on the West Somerset Railway set in my usual time period, 517s and Dean Goods in green and indian red, short carriages in cream and brown, red wagons, baulk road track. I've often thought about a Col Stephens-style light railway, but I don't really have the imagination!

I'm sure I remember both High Weald and Cranbrook Town in RM, not sure about Loose End, though. But I definitely remember the MRJ articles featuring Jane/Shannon! I remember being overwhelmed by the work! I've often thought that Wantage Town would make an excellent model, and the Lower Yard, too. Horse trams - hmmm! - horses with wheels would probably look a bit odd 😁

Best regards,

Mark

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Just now, 2996 Victor said:

Hi David,

I know what you mean about diverse interests! At the moment, I'm finishing off a rake of Cambrian Railways opens in 4mm/EM for a small layout I have planned, while I've got wagons from several other companies, S&DJR, Midland and the like, in almost-finished condition. Besides that, I've a plan for an Ashover Light Railway inglenook in 009 and I'm also planning a model of Stogumber on the West Somerset Railway set in my usual time period, 517s and Dean Goods in green and indian red, short carriages in cream and brown, red wagons, baulk road track. I've often thought about a Col Stephens-style light railway, but I don't really have the imagination!

I'm sure I remember both High Weald and Cranbrook Town in RM, not sure about Loose End, though. But I definitely remember the MRJ articles featuring Jane/Shannon! I remember being overwhelmed by the work! I've often thought that Wantage Town would make an excellent model, and the Lower Yard, too. Horse trams - hmmm! - horses with wheels would probably look a bit odd 😁

Best regards,

Mark

Any pics?

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16 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Any pics?

Hi MM,

well, the actual layout is only as far as a plan and a try-out with some track, but I can post a few pics of the rolling stock I've built if that's of interest? Bearing in mind that it's standard gauge 😉

Kindest regards,

Mark

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Posted (edited)

Well, here are some of my recent efforts 🙂 in most cases, I've used kit sides and ends with scratchbuilt underframes, sometimes with the kit's floor but more my own. Axleguards are MJT etches, fixed rigidly, with 3D-printed axlebox/spring assemblies. Solebar details are taken from the MJT fret. Brake gear is mostly fettled Slater's with Masokits etched brass safety loops replacing the moulded-on ones. Brake levers will be a mixture of Masokits and Bill Bedford etches.

The first two are Slater's Midland Railway Diagram D299 5-plank opens, finished as examples built by the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway's Highbridge Works. These differed in detail from the Midland design, most notably in that the floors didn't have drop doors, and the side doors had hefty wooden doorstops. Most also had a long brake lever, but these are numbered in the early series which had standard Midland short brake levers. They're going to be loaded, hence the lack of interior detail and only the top plank is tinted:
http://IMG-1836.jpg

These two are Cambrian Railways vehicles, finished in that company's pre-1899 livery, although there is some likelihood that they shouldn't have the load branding. The 4-plank on the right is based on sides/ends from the Cambrian Model Rail kit, with my usual scratchbuilt underframe. The 2-plank fixed side on the left is 3D-printed, and comes from Coastline Models Shapeways page:
http://IMG-1852.jpg

This is a Midland Railway Diagram D305 3-plank dropside, again using Slater's sides/ends. It needs its buffers as well as its brake lever:
http://IMG-2016.jpg

While this one is finished as a Midland Railway Engineer's Department vehicle, built "out-of-the-box" but with added canvas spats over the axleboxes:
http://IMG_0824.jpg

These two are also built from Slater's Midland D305 kits, finished as S&DJR vehicles. The one on the right is almost complete and just needs its etched brake lever and Tare weight, while the one on the left is one I built about 25 years ago and is "out-of-the-box". It sports a hand-lettered livery - I could see straight in those days!
http://IMG-2061.jpg

Here we have another 3D-printed Cambrian Railways wagon, this time a 3-plank fixed side, again from Coastline Models. This one is actually finished, apart from weathering, of course:
http://IMG-2204.jpg

And finally, a string of Cambrian Railways opens, a couple of 4-plank high-sided opens and three 2-plank dropsides in various states of completion. They need their brake gear completing, a few small other details adding, the interior tinting and external weathering:
http://IMG-2206.jpg
http://IMG-2207.jpg
http://IMG-2209.jpg
http://IMG-2211.jpg

Apart from the hand-lettered S&DJR 3-plank, company livery markings are transfers. The Cambrian Railways wagons use waterslide transfers from the Welsh Railways Research Circle, all the others are HMRS pressfix. Small details like door safety chains and sheet lashing rings are present on the wagons in the first couple of photos, but need adding to all the rest.....

Hope these are of some interest! I'm looking forward to getting my teeth into some 5'3" gauge wagons soon!

Best regards,

Mark

Edited by 2996 Victor
Meant to add that these are all 4mm/1ft scale, EM gauge.
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Those wagons look great Mark, so am sure I won't be the only one looking forward to seeing how your project progress.

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9 hours ago, Midland Man said:

Any pics of those layouts?

Will see what I can dig out, MM - though they were all in the pre-digital age so will need to take photos of photos to post them here. Have included a picture of Jane/Shannon. She may look at home on my 5'3, but is narrow gauge, of course!

DSCN3550.jpeg

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