Mount Bellew, MGWR

[2996 Victor]

On 5/21/2020 at 6:55 AM, Mayner said:

Funnily enough I used the Platform/Ground Level version of the Ratio on a minimal space MGWR branch line terminus many years ago.

If you feel reasonably confident about building complex point work, it might be worth while considering a double slip in the crossover from the running line to the run round loop and goods yard, the Midland used this arrangement at both Edenderry and Kingscourt. It might be feasible to fit a mirror image of Edenderry into the area "behind the houses" between the R358 from Ballinasloe & the N63 to Ballygar & Mount Talbot. Edenderry had the advantage of having the cattle bank and goods shed on one side of the station/baseboard.

I mounted a flying survey of the area while trying to track down the location of the ancestral farm of my Grandmother in 2018. 

 

Dear John,

many thanks for your thoughts and your photographs - I was planning on having a look on Google Maps, but you'r suggested location adjacent to the town definitely looks feasible - as a first thought I was envisaging the fictional branch running more-or-less parallel to the R358, topography notwithstanding, from a junction with the main line at Ballinasloe.

To be honest, I'm not actually planning on building any pointwork - as I want it to work, I'm going to outsource it - so a double slip is certainly a possibility and would provide a siginificant reduction in length over two conventional points toe-to-toe. Edenderry has much to commend it both as is stands and as a jumping-off point for fictional terminus. I don't have a huge area available for the layout so length is my main issue, and one of the key characteristics of the MGWR's terminii is their spaciousness. I'm going to have to be a bit clever, I think!

Thanks again and best regards,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

Hi All,

I thought that perhaps after almost two years, a little thread resurrection might be in order.

I've been spending most of the intervening time building model aeroplanes. My entire railway modelling has been on hold until just prior to Christmas, when I started a Lynton & Barnstaple Railway OO9 micro layout. I've also been collecting information and bits and pieces for a Denver & Rio Grande layout in HOn3. So I though it was about time that I picked up with my MGWR project as well.

As you may have guessed, I'm no further along, except that I've this afternoon ordered some Alphagraphix Kits to get me moving again. Next job is to come up with a layout plan, after which I can order some baseboards.

Hope to be back soon with something worth reporting!

Cheers for now,
Mark

[jhb171achill]

What sort of space do you have available, Victor?

[2996 Victor]

8 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

What sort of space do you have available, Victor?

Hi Jonathan,

My work room has a clear length of 3.6m, although I could probably squeeze a bit more if I could barter running rights in the lounge! That doesn't necessarily need to include staging/fiddle yard, though. I'd probably want to use Grainge & Hodder baseboard modules with a 0.6m width, but that's not set in stone.

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

5 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Hi Jonathan,

My work room has a clear length of 3.6m, although I could probably squeeze a bit more if I could barter running rights in the lounge! That doesn't necessarily need to include staging/fiddle yard, though. I'd probably want to use Grainge & Hodder baseboard modules with a 0.6m width, but that's not set in stone.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark

So that’s about 11ft in “old money”. From the first set of points to buffers on Dugort Harbour is about that, and the loop comfortably allows four bogie coaches to be run round.

The issue is where it goes to once it’s leaving its terminus - can it go beyond the 3.6m length to a fiddle yard?

I am assuming here that the width of the boards is maybe something under a metre?

[2996 Victor]

32 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Mark

So that’s about 11ft in “old money”. From the first set of points to buffers on Dugort Harbour is about that, and the loop comfortably allows four bogie coaches to be run round.

The issue is where it goes to once it’s leaving its terminus - can it go beyond the 3.6m length to a fiddle yard?

I am assuming here that the width of the boards is maybe something under a metre?

Hi Jonathan,

Yes, it works out at about 11'8" clear length, that still allows me to open the door! Width approx 2". I've gone a bit metric as Grainge and Hodder size their boards in metric with their longest module being 1.2m, just under 4'.

I'm thinking of it being portable, in which case the fiddle yard can be extra. Running rights in the lounge would give me just over 16'.

I do tend toward the cameo style, so breaking a long station with a scenic block is a possibility, maybe with an extra board to slot in if it goes to shows.

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

16 feet is twice 8ft; thus a station area of 8ft & under a tunnel / scenic break to a fiddle yard of the same. 

8ft might still allow a run-round loop if some 3 bogies’ length.

[jhb171achill]

On 19/4/2020 at 5:42 PM, 2996 Victor said:

 

1. Liveries: I've found some references to MGWR liveries here on the Forum already which are very useful - thank you to all those who've posted. However, I thought I'd read somewhere that goods stock lettering was a pale cream, but can't now seem to find that - am I delusional? Also, building paint schemes - cherry red and pale cream/stone? Presumably, window frames white?
2. Available models: .............For instance, the SSM MGWR covered goods wagons - are they suitable for my time period? And the JM Design horsebox and fish/meat wagons - how "easy" are they to assemble (bearing in mind they're etched brass!)? Are there any other suppliers that have suitable locos, carriages and wagons.........

Hi Mark, just noticed these questions now.

1.  I have no record of white being used, and early photos suggest a duller colour, so I suspect the beige is what was on the window frames.

2. Yes, those SSM wagons are fine, and the JM Design horse boxes likewise. JM Design also did a kit of a G3 2.4.0 - an iconic and ling-lived design, certainly appropriate to the era you have chosen (and many others!). Maybe John (JM) might comment as to whether this kit is still available?

[2996 Victor]

5 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Mark, just noticed these questions now.

1.  I have no record of white being used, and early photos suggest a duller colour, so I suspect the beige is what was on the window frames.

2. Yes, those SSM wagons are fine, and the JM Design horse boxes likewise. JM Design also did a kit of a G3 2.4.0 - an iconic and ling-lived design, certainly appropriate to the era you have chosen (and many others!). Maybe John (JM) might comment as to whether this kit is still available?

Many thanks for your reply, Jonathan, it's hugely appreciated. Funnily enough, I was only thinking yesterday about starting a signal box and the colour scheme for the timber work, so your reply is timely indeed!

I'm hoping to get a GWR McKenzie & Holland kit from Alphagraphix for MGWR-ing, probably just the cabin on a brick base, although the Ratio kit is still calling as well!

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

14 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

Many thanks for your reply, Jonathan, it's hugely appreciated. Funnily enough, I was only thinking yesterday about starting a signal box and the colour scheme for the timber work, so your reply is timely indeed!

I'm hoping to get a GWR McKenzie & Holland kit from Alphagraphix for MGWR-ing, probably just the cabin on a brick base, although the Ratio kit is still calling as well!

Cheers,

Mark

Do beware of one aspect of the Alphagrafix range, though - the vast majority are wrong livery-wise, sometimes completely so in all aspects; however if right, they are very nice little kits and not expensive.

[Galteemore]

24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Mark, just noticed these questions now.

1.  I have no record of white being used, and early photos suggest a duller colour, so I suspect the beige is what was on the window frames.

2. Yes, those SSM wagons are fine, and the JM Design horse boxes likewise. JM Design also did a kit of a G3 2.4.0 - an iconic and ling-lived design, certainly appropriate to the era you have chosen (and many others!). Maybe John (JM) might comment as to whether this kit is still available?

@KMCEoffers some fine 3d wagons which would look great in a goods train of that era 

[jhb171achill]

Just now, Galteemore said:

@KMCEoffers some fine 3d wagons which would look great in a goods train of that era 

Very true indeed - I have some of those!

[2996 Victor]

6 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Do beware of one aspect of the Alphagrafix range, though - the vast majority are wrong livery-wise, sometimes completely so in all aspects; however if right, they are very nice little kits and not expensive.

Thanks for the heads-up - I guess that they can be repainted with care..... although I believe some folks use them as drawings for scratch-building in styrene.

I'm looking into some of their wagons and carriages, too, although the supplied liveries are wrong for my era.

I'll be wary!

Cheers,

Mark

[Galteemore]

16 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Do beware of one aspect of the Alphagrafix range, though - the vast majority are wrong livery-wise, sometimes completely so in all aspects; however if right, they are very nice little kits and not expensive.

That’s maybe a little harsh, Jb, although does apply to some of his brass kits that have been made up, as below….They are largely, I suspect, painted that way to attract UK light railway modellers to buy them. His card kits tend to be more accurate, although you need to double check the precise dimensions of some.  I’ve also included one I made from styrene but using his drawings and colour scheme.

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by Galteemore

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

@KMCEoffers some fine 3d wagons which would look great in a goods train of that era 

Oooooh - @KMCE just had a look at your threads in the manufacturers section - beautiful work! I'll be in touch.....

1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

His card kits tend to be more accurate, although you need to double check the precise dimensions of some.

That's good news I'm hoping to get a few of those in soon.

Cheers,

Mark

Edited April 3, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Very true indeed - I have some of those!

How often was there interchange of different companies' rolling stock? 

[Galteemore]

All the time, if you mean goods stock. Wagons from all over Ireland could be seen pretty much anywhere, especially prior to 1922, after which the border damaged much of the old cross-country trade. Belfast, for instance, had a huge rope works (biggest in the world). It was in BCDR territory, so highly likely that an order of cordage for a Galway chandler would come west in a County Down wagon.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Galteemore

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

How often was there interchange of different companies' rolling stock? 

Continually. Suppose someone in Sligo had a customer in Belfast, Enniscorthy, Nenagh and Bandon. You're going to get a MGWR goods van on GNR metals, DSER, GSWR and CBSCR respectively. Locos and coaches not so much, obviously.

The SLNCR would scarcely ever have a goods train without at least some GNR and GSR constituent wagons in it. maybe different down in Wexford, where few would not be DSER, or West Cork, where fewer still would be "foreign". Equally, few wagons on the BCDR or northern parts of the NCC weren't "local", but SOME would have been. But overall, yes, wagons got about all over the place.

Coaches and locos would be confined to one-off excursions, usually, though in some cases companies had running rights over the lines of others - for example, up to 1901, trains of WLWR and SLNCR origin were operating over the MGWR line from Collooney to Sligo.

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

That’s maybe a little harsh, Jb, although does apply to some of his brass kits that have been made up, as below….They are largely, I suspect, painted that way to attract UK light railway modellers to buy them. His card kits tend to be more accurate, although you need to double check the precise dimensions of some.  I’ve also included one I made from styrene but using his drawings and colour scheme.

 

IMG_0298.MOV

 

 

Superb stuff, Galteemore - that CIE van really is the business. 

My comments re liveries are based on a paper catalogue I obtained a couple of years ago, in which unfortunately the (numerical!) majority of the card kits had incorrect liveries. That said, liveries aren't everyone's cuppa tea, I know that; and as you say they can be used as templates or repainted correctly. They are extremely good value for what you get. His brass kits - yes - every single one above is incorrect livery wise, but an absolute beauty to behold otherwise. So, overall, I would not "knock" them.

[jhb171achill]

2 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

Thanks for the heads-up - I guess that they can be repainted with care..... although I believe some folks use them as drawings for scratch-building in styrene.

I'm looking into some of their wagons and carriages, too, although the supplied liveries are wrong for my era.

 

For your era, 1900-05, you have the interesting "quirk" of an occasional loco or coach in the very short-lived "tourist" livery of blue, which appeared about 1903 but only lasted a few years before reversion to the older liveries.

"Normal" MGWR of that period is emerald green lined black and white for all locos - unusually, they painted goods and shunting engines that way too (many companies reserved the colourful liveries for passenger locos and painted other stuff black). Carriages were mid-brown with gold lining (yellow after about 1905). Wagons were a very dark grey, with some goods brake vans and drovers' vans being a very dark green. There's a model in authentic livery of one of the latter in the Malahide Model Railway Museum.

[2996 Victor]

A bit of rummaging today turned up the sketched plans of the MGWR's branch line termini I made a couple of years ago from the OSI archive plans. Not to scale of course, and the platform lengths are only very approximate, but here they are if anyone's interested:

And here's my first go at a track plan for my project:

Very much a first draft and most definitely not to scale!!! I'm imagining a platform a scale 250 feet long, about 3'3" in model terms - a train of four 6-wheelers comes in at about 120 feet long, or about 18", as far as I can ascertain, so there may be scope for a tiny bit more compression. I reckon I've undersized the turntable by quite a bit, in which case the carriage/nag dock won't fit as I've sketched it, but as I say its just a first stab! I'd be very grateful for any thoughts or suggestions on how to improve it and make it more realistic.

In other news, my Alphagraphix order is confirmed, I've ordered a copy of Rails through Connemara, and the aforementioned rummaging also turned up three-point and roller track gauges and a back-to-back gauge that I'd completely forgotten about. Happy days!

Question time!

• What was the usual distance between running lines? 6 feet?
• Was there a "standard" platform width on the MGWR?
• What was a the usual turntable diameter? I'm guessing at around 50 feet as that would accommodate smaller tender locomotives.

Many thanks and all the best,

Mark

Edited April 4, 2022 by 2996 Victor

[David Holman]

Some great examples there, Mark, but I like yours better! The problems with all those termini is the amount of space they need, so yours is a nice compromise, while still incorporating all the key features.

 Think you are right about the TT and track spacing. Being built while still ruled from London, suspect the platform widths would be the same, so a minimum of six feet for a single platform and twelve for a double faced one. In practice they were wider on all but the most basic stations, so am sure you will have enough space.

[2996 Victor]

1 hour ago, David Holman said:

Some great examples there, Mark, but I like yours better! The problems with all those termini is the amount of space they need, so yours is a nice compromise, while still incorporating all the key features.

 Think you are right about the TT and track spacing. Being built while still ruled from London, suspect the platform widths would be the same, so a minimum of six feet for a single platform and twelve for a double faced one. In practice they were wider on all but the most basic stations, so am sure you will have enough space.

That's brilliant, David, thank you!

And thank you for your very complementary words about my layout plan - greatly appreciated! I'm always conscious of trying to cram in too much, and Irish stations are pretty spacious, aren't they? Incidentally, I really wanted to include a carriage dock like yours on Belmullet.

By the way, I'm just re-reading the RM article on Fintonagh: fab stuff! Going to look for the Arigna articles now!

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

3 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

A bit of rummaging today turned up the sketched plans of the MGWR's branch line termini I made a couple of years ago from the OSI archive plans. Not to scale of course, and the platform lengths are only very approximate, but here they are if anyone's interested:

And here's my first go at a track plan for my project:

Very much a first draft and most definitely not to scale!!! I'm imagining a platform a scale 250 feet long, about 3'3" in model terms - a train of four 6-wheelers comes in at about 120 feet long, or about 18", as far as I can ascertain, so there may be scope for a tiny bit more compression. I reckon I've undersized the turntable by quite a bit, in which case the carriage/nag dock won't fit as I've sketched it, but as I say its just a first stab! I'd be very grateful for any thoughts or suggestions on how to improve it and make it more realistic.

In other news, my Alphagraphix order is confirmed, I've ordered a copy of Rails through Connemara, and the aforementioned rummaging also turned up three-point and roller track gauges and a back-to-back gauge that I'd completely forgotten about. Happy days!

Question time!

• What was the usual distance between running lines? 6 feet?
• Was there a "standard" platform width on the MGWR?
• What was a the usual turntable diameter? I'm guessing at around 50 feet as that would accommodate smaller tender locomotives.

Many thanks and all the best,

Mark

Superb plan, Mark - very well thought out and very realistic. To your questions: (1) Yes, 6ft typically, not less. Sometimes more within stations. (2) No! At termini, most were quite wide - up to double track width is a reasonable rule of thumb, though Kingscourt, Achill, Clifden, Kingscourt & Edenderry less so. (3) It varied. From perusal of MGWR boardroom minute books, which I have consulted quite a few times over the last 30 years, 40-45ft was normal. On a branch, 50ft would be a bit of an overkill.

Might be relevant here to mention that "Rails To Achill", currently sold out, is going to go to a 3rd edition, according to the publisher.

[David Holman]

Interesting, JB. My 7mm TTs have all been around 42', being mostly adapted 00 ones. My G2 fits, just, but Wolf Dog barely, so that extra 3' would make all the difference!

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Superb plan, Mark - very well thought out and very realistic. To your questions: (1) Yes, 6ft typically, not less. Sometimes more within stations. (2) No! At termini, most were quite wide - up to double track width is a reasonable rule of thumb, though Kingscourt, Achill, Clifden, Kingscourt & Edenderry less so. (3) It varied. From perusal of MGWR boardroom minute books, which I have consulted quite a few times over the last 30 years, 40-45ft was normal. On a branch, 50ft would be a bit of an overkill.

Might be relevant here to mention that "Rails To Achill", currently sold out, is going to go to a 3rd edition, according to the publisher.

Many thanks Jonathan, that's very kind of you - it can be difficult to come up with a plausible plan that echoes prototype practise while not being too sprawling or contrived, so your and David's affirmations are extremely welcome.

Thanks also for your answers to my latest round of questions: also hugely appreciated. I'm working up a scale plan so its good to know I can reduce the size of the TT slightly. I've allowed for a 20-foot-wide platform, which seems to look okay, although its difficult to be sure!

I've actually got a copy of Rails to Achill, but like most of my references, I'm busy re-learning where everything is!

Kind regards,

Mark

[Angus]

19 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

What was a the usual turntable diameter? I'm guessing at around 50 feet as that would accommodate smaller tender locomotives.

Hi Mark,

I've been looking into turntable myself as part of my plan detailed in my topic:

I've found some details of the MGWR's turntables in the November 2001 Irish lines which may assist:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i5fc04qa6q56fx0/New Irish Lines - Vol. 2 No. 6 - 2001 November.pdf

 

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, Angus said:

Hi Mark,

I've been looking into turntable myself as part of my plan detailed in my topic:

I've found some details of the MGWR's turntables in the November 2001 Irish lines which may assist:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/i5fc04qa6q56fx0/New Irish Lines - Vol. 2 No. 6 - 2001 November.pdf

Hi Angus,

many thanks for the link, that's hugely appreciated. The snippet on turntables is absolutely fascinating and confirms what diameter to plump for; the POC drawing is very useful as well the photos.

Kind regards,

Mark

 

[2996 Victor]

My copy of Rails Through Connemara arrived today thank you, Stenlake Publishing for a very quick delivery!

Excellent work, @jhb171achill, I'm looking forward to reading the fruits of your research. I think you said somewhere else that the blue livery on the 'D' in the cover painting was a bit unlikely, but it does look rather well!

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

1 hour ago, 2996 Victor said:

My copy of Rails Through Connemara arrived today thank you, Stenlake Publishing for a very quick delivery!

Excellent work, @jhb171achill, I'm looking forward to reading the fruits of your research. I think you said somewhere else that the blue livery on the 'D' in the cover painting was a bit unlikely, but it does look rather well!

Cheers,

Mark

Many thanks, Mark, and it does indeed look well!

[2996 Victor]

3 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Many thanks, Mark, and it does indeed look well!

I suspect there could well be a similar blue loco in my future: main line locos would have to be run in after being shopped, after all. It's an excuse, anyway, even if it is a bit flimsy

Cheers,

Mark

[jhb171achill]

18 minutes ago, 2996 Victor said:

I suspect there could well be a similar blue loco in my future: main line locos would have to be run in after being shopped, after all. It's an excuse, anyway, even if it is a bit flimsy

Cheers,

Mark

Not at all a bad excuse! 

[2996 Victor]

For one of my other current projects, I'm making use of laser-cut MDF building kits from a seller on eBay. They're described as "scratch-aids", and with a bit of chopping and re-arranging, I'm finding them a great boon in producing some terraced housing, warehouses and the like. A lot of them are half-relief, although there are some full structures, too. They're not terribly expensive, and with a bit of dressing up I'm pretty pleased with how they're coming along. I think that, suitably finished of course, they'd make a nice addition to an Irish street scene.

Anyway, here are a couple of pics of how the terraces are coming along. Apologies for the iffy lighting!

The interiors are printed "flats" cut out and folded up. I'm intending to add some internal illumination to some of the nearest houses, perhaps with an open window or two. The brick paper is also from eBay, and its printed on a textured wallpaper so I'm not entirely convinced by it. But in the words of the Greek Philosopher, Mediocrates, "Meh! Good enough!" I really must re-attached that missing piece of quay wall, too.....

Cheers,

Mark

[KMCE]

11 hours ago, 2996 Victor said:

The brick paper is also from eBay

If it is of any use, Scalescenes https://scalescenes.com/  are good for both buildings, & in the scratchbuilding section, different types of materials are most useful.

 

On 4/4/2022 at 5:51 PM, 2996 Victor said:

And here's my first go at a track plan for my project:

Very much a first draft and most definitely not to scale!!!

I really like this layout - lots of operating potential, and well spread out as per Irish prototype.  I note from the title you are considering 21mm track and working with 21mm myself I would consider the space needed for points.  A6 point in 21mm gauge is 300mm long, while a B6 is 325mm long, thus a crossover using B6 points will take 650mm.  Looks excellent but takes up a lot of space!  I don't know the space you have to work with, but hopefully you will have enough to develop this & I look forward to progress.

Ken

[2996 Victor]

8 minutes ago, KMCE said:

If it is of any use, Scalescenes https://scalescenes.com/  are good for both buildings, & in the scratchbuilding section, different types of materials are most useful.

 

I really like this layout - lots of operating potential, and well spread out as per Irish prototype.  I note from the title you are considering 21mm track and working with 21mm myself I would consider the space needed for points.  A6 point in 21mm gauge is 300mm long, while a B6 is 325mm long, thus a crossover using B6 points will take 650mm.  Looks excellent but takes up a lot of space!  I don't know the space you have to work with, but hopefully you will have enough to develop this & I look forward to progress.

Ken

Hi Ken,

Many thanks for the pointers - I'd completely forgotten about Scalescenes, so I'll have a look at there products asap.

I've got a copy of AutoCAD, so I've started drawing up the layout plan to scale - so far it's looking like it's a "go". I've got 3.6m clear length in my hobby room which will hopefully be okay for the scenic section. I'll have to measure the points and see if I'm anywhere near your dimensions..... If you hear a scream, that'll be me

Incidentally, I'll be PM-ing you at some point about your 3D-printed wagons.

Cheers,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

12 hours ago, KMCE said:

 and working with 21mm myself

Hi again, Ken,

I meant to ask what standards you're working to? I was thinking of using EM standards, i.e. 1mm flangeways, largely as I'm a member of the EMGS. I'd be grateful for your thoughts.

Cheers,

Mark