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Should I stay or should Sligo..........?

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Angus
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Examining the numbers of the various trains I can see I'm going to have my work cut out to model these!

image.png.658ec62a1362de32de4864657ca8574b.png

Looking at the locomotive requirements (the best bit!) for each line in turn-

The SLCNR

At this period the SLNCR had three classes of locomotive

The small Beyer Peacock 0-6-4 tanks in the Leitrim class

LEITRIM - 0-6-4T - built 1882 by Beyer Peacock & Co., Works No.2138 - 1947 withdrawn - builder's picture.

The large Beyer Peacock 0-6-4 tank of the Sir Henry class

o SLNCR_Sir_Henry_at_Sligo

And finally a pair of ex GNR(i) A class 0-6-0 tender engines

Vintage Irish Railways - Northern Ireland - SLNCRBeyer Peacock built 'A' class 0-6-0 Glencar originated with the GNR(I) as far back as 1890 and was bought from that company by the Sligo Leitrim and Northern Counties Railway in 1928 for which it worked until withdrawal and eventual scrapping in 1949 which is probably the year when this shot was taken. [Mike Morant collection]

It would be nice to represent all three classes although initial focus will be on the tanks which are synonymous with the SLNCR and I will need these in the near future for my Dromahair micro layout.

Next the ex WL&WR lines to Limerick.

There are many photos showing D17 haulage between Limerick/Tuam and Sligo and these are among my favourite Irish locos, especially with the original double smoke box doors

1 - Aspinall GSWR Class 52 4-4-0 - built 1890 by Inchicore Works - 1925 to GSR as Class D17 - 1945 to CIE - 1955 withdrawn.

The 1938 loco allocation table in the back of "the locomotives of the GSR" shows six D17s shedded at Limerick.

The post above shows the ex Robinson WL&WR 0-4-4t E2 one of a pair that survived into the thirties and was still shedded at Limerick in 1938.

Finally I supposed we should have a goods engine, either one of the ex WL&WR 0-6-0 J25s (two at Limerick) or a J15, but there is also photos of ex WL&WR 2-4-0 G3s at Sligo and that would make a nice contrast with the MGWR G2 2-4-0s that were closely associated with Sligo, although only one of these G3s was shedded at Limerick in 1938.

That leaves the MGWR lines to Dublin.

A G2 is a must, according the 1938 shed list two of these were based at Sligo but many more would have visited from Dublin, There were enough variations in these engines to build several of which no two would be the same.

Class G2 - 655 - Atock MGWR Class K 2-4-0 - built 1897 by Broadstone Works as MGWR No.29 CLONSILLA - 1925 to GSR - 1926 rebuilt, 1941 rebuilt with Belpaire superheated boiler - 1945 to CIE - 1954 rebuilt with round top boiler - 1961 withdrawn.

I quite like the brutalist rebuild of the belpaire boiler and superheated version shown above.

For freight work a J5 is a must. I particularly like the later builds with raised footplate that combined with the large 5' 8" wheels give a real long legged look.

Class J5 - 629 - Morton MGWR Class Fa 0-6-0 - built 1924 by Broadstone Works as MGWR No.92 - 1925 to GSR as Class 623 No.629, 1945 to CIE - 1954 withdrawn.

A J18/19 would probably be more representative, with a couple based at Sligo but J5's are also in the photo record at Sligo, the mundane can follow!

Additional passenger support can be in form of the D6/7 ex MGWR C class 4-4-0, in original form they were quite elegant

Class C - 5 CROAGH PATRICK - Cusack MGWR Class C 4-4-0 - built 1910 by Broadstone Works - 1924 rebuilt with superheated Belpaire boiler and to MGWR No.26 - 1925 to GSR as No.539, 1935 rebuilt, 1939 rebuilt with bigger boiler, 1945 to CIE - 1952 withdrawn.

I would quite like a D16 D bogie but these seem to have been put to grass on the Galway and Mayo branches in the period.

The final surprise from the loco 1938 loco allocation table is the presence of a J26 ex MGWR 0-6-0t at Sligo.

 

Class E - Atock 109 FLY - Class E 0-6-0T - built 1891 by Sharp Stewart & Co., Works No.3693 - 1925 to GSR as Class 551 No.554, 1945 to CIE - 1960 withdrawn.

 

Given there were no branch workings from Sligo, I can only presume this engine worked as a shunter on the quays or as a station pilot.

So I've got my work cut out!

To operate a core service representation I'll prioritise the building of the two SLNCR 0-6-4t, a D17 for the Limerick workings and a G2 and J5 for Dublin.

That should keep me off the streets........

Edited by Angus
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4 hours ago, Angus said:

Examining the numbers of the various trains I can see I'm going to have my work cut out to model these!

image.png.658ec62a1362de32de4864657ca8574b.png

Looking at the locomotive requirements (the best bit!) for each line in turn-

The SLCNR

At this period the SLNCR had three classes of locomotive

The small Beyer Peacock 0-6-4 tanks in the Leitrim class

 

The large Beyer Peacock 0-6-4 tank of the Sir Henry class

 

And finally a pair of ex GNR(i) A class 0-6-0 tender engines

 

It would be nice to represent all three classes although initial focus will be on the tanks which are synonymous with the SLNCR and I will need these in the near future for my Dromahair micro layout.

Next the ex WL&WR lines to Limerick.

There are many photos showing D17 haulage between Limerick/Tuam and Sligo and these are among my favourite Irish locos, especially with the original double smoke box doors

 

The 1938 loco allocation table in the back of "the locomotives of the GSR" shows six D17s shedded at Limerick.

The post above shows the ex Robinson WL&WR 0-4-4t E2 one of a pair that survived into the thirties and was still shedded at Limerick in 1938.

Finally I supposed we should have a goods engine, either one of the ex WL&WR 0-6-0 J25s (two at Limerick) or a J15, but there is also photos of ex WL&WR 2-4-0 G3s at Sligo and that would make a nice contrast with the MGWR G2 2-4-0s that were closely associated with Sligo, although only one of these G3s was shedded at Limerick in 1938.

That leaves the MGWR lines to Dublin.

A G2 is a must, according the 1938 shed list two of these were based at Sligo but many more would have visited from Dublin, There were enough variations in these engines to build several of which no two would be the same.

 

I quite like the brutalist rebuild of the belpaire boiler and superheated version shown above.

For freight work a J5 is a must. I particularly like the later builds with raised footplate that combined with the large 5' 8" wheels give a real long legged look.

 

A J18/19 would probably be more representative, with a couple based at Sligo but J5's are also in the photo record at Sligo, the mundane can follow!

Additional passenger support can be in form of the D6/7 ex MGWR C class 4-4-0, in original form they were quite elegant

 

I would quite like a D16 D bogie but these seem to have been put to grass on the Galway and Mayo branches in the period.

The final surprise from the loco 1938 loco allocation table is the presence of a J26 ex MGWR 0-6-0t at Sligo.

 

 

 

Given there were no branch workings from Sligo, I can only presume this engine worked as a shunter on the quays or as a station pilot.

So I've got my work cut out!

To operate a core service representation I'll prioritise the building of the two SLNCR 0-6-4t, a D17 for the Limerick workings and a G2 and J5 for Dublin.

That should keep me off the streets........

And - inevitably, J18s and J15s!  According to Billy Lohan, cattle trains and fairs brought J15s up from the south working both laden and empty specials. Huge shunting was necessary at Collooney to get this over to the Sligo Leitrim for Belfast.

Actually, Collooney South could in itself make an interesting layout!

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24 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

And - inevitably, J18s and J15s!  According to Billy Lohan, cattle trains and fairs brought J15s up from the south working both laden and empty specials. Huge shunting was necessary at Collooney to get this over to the Sligo Leitrim for Belfast.

Actually, Collooney South could in itself make an interesting layout!

Go back to pre-amalgamation days and general goods traffic between the SLNCR & GSWR/WLWR was interchanged at Collooney South via the "Southern Siding" rather than intermittent use for through cattle traffic in GSR days and wagon storage after 1944. The  Interestingly the Southern Siding was owned by the WLWR and its successors and the track at least south of the MGWR underbridge remained in place until the "Southern Yard" was lifted.

Collooney seems to have been a major originating point in its own right for export cattle traffic via the SLNCR and Midland Sligo Line. CIE introduced a nightly "Shipping Special" to handle increased cattle traffic on the Sligo line following the closure of the SLNCR with most of the traffic originating from Collooney Midland rather than Sligo Quay the station continued to handle cattle traffic into the mid 1970s although Collooney Southern was closed and the yard disconnected by the mid 1970s.

2001368637_CollooneySouth.thumb.jpg.60e9abe2657ce72032ce95f860836dcf.jpg

Collooney Southern or SLNCR would make excellent models for an American walk around style layout but would be challenging to find a home unless you have a double garage or American style basement

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With regard to the J5s I've just realised that two J5s were shedded at Mullingar in the 1938 list, one of which was the later type with the raised footplate.  

In the 1920 timetable in Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated  History of the MGWR the 11.30PM goods from North Wall split at Mullingar with the first train working selected stations  arriving at Sligo at 12.30PM (a 13 hour trip!) the second train worked nearly all stations, including those work by the first train (which does seem a bit odd), arriving at Sligo at 2.20PM. 

This splitting of goods trains seems to have stopped by the time of the 1930 timetable posted by jhb171achill on page 1 of this topic but I'm sure Mullingar engines would have found their way to Sligo.

If not there were plenty of J5s available from Dublin.

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You may need a MGWR H Class or 619 Class (J6) 0-6-0 these worked the "Rambler Goods" to Galway & Sligo. The class had 4'9" wheels small for an Irish 0-6-0 and only appear to have worked goods trains in GSR days.

A 619 sounds ideal for the heavy slogging of the all stations stopper, while the F Class handled the fast goods only calling at the major stations.

The class were a modernised version of a batch of locos originally ordered by the Waterford Dungarvan & Lismore, picked up at at bargain price by the Midland  and were re-built practically as new heavy goods locos in the post WW1 era with large superheated boilers and new front ends. Inchacore even considered the locos to be "very good" high praise for a Midland loco!

Class J6 - 619 - Atock MGWR Class H 0-6-0 - built 1880 by Avonside Engine Co., Works No.1211, as MGWR No.96 AVONSIDE - 1906 rebuilt with saturated Belpaire boiler, 1922 superheated - 1925 to GSR as No.619, 1945 to CIE - 1949 withdrawn - seen here at Broadstone in August 1935.

A 619 would be a useful goods loco and make a nice choice for a scratchbuild with its simple outline without curved or stepped running board or crankpin splashers.  I have been planning to build one for many years but could not chase down a drawing until a diagram of the 619 Class was recently published in New Irish Lines. I would be tempted to place the motor in the tender with a carden shaft drive to a gearbox on rear axle of the loco and fill the boiler and firebox with woods metal much as I planned for a J5 many years ago.

550844178_623Broadstone09052020.thumb.jpg.ce5806f1cc465908f4f5a04872e6cd4a.jpg

Though I should post a better photo! I guess I should build one for myself!

Edited by Mayner
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Hi John,

You are of course correct. In selecting a J5 as the first representative of any goods loco on the Midland line I am not modelling the mundane reality,  I'm also giving myself a challenge with that raised running plate!

Those J6s do look quite brutish, I hadn't considered them before and I do like the extended smokebox arising from the fitting of the superheater.

In general the considered opinion in 2mm scale circles is to fit the motor in the tender as the small body without any side tanks makes the motor difficult to hide and enables the boiler to be heavily weighted for better traction (always a problem in 2mm).

The relative low sided Midland tenders will create an issue in hiding the motor but they've got around that in the photo above by piling coal over it!

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9 hours ago, Mayner said:

You may need a MGWR H Class or 619 Class (J6) 0-6-0 these worked the "Rambler Goods" to Galway & Sligo. The class had 4'9" wheels small for an Irish 0-6-0 and only appear to have worked goods trains in GSR days.

A 619 sounds ideal for the heavy slogging of the all stations stopper, while the F Class handled the fast goods only calling at the major stations.

The class were a modernised version of a batch of locos originally ordered by the Waterford Dungarvan & Lismore, picked up at at bargain price by the Midland  and were re-built practically as new heavy goods locos in the post WW1 era with large superheated boilers and new front ends. Inchacore even considered the locos to be "very good" high praise for a Midland loco!

Class J6 - 619 - Atock MGWR Class H 0-6-0 - built 1880 by Avonside Engine Co., Works No.1211, as MGWR No.96 AVONSIDE - 1906 rebuilt with saturated Belpaire boiler, 1922 superheated - 1925 to GSR as No.619, 1945 to CIE - 1949 withdrawn - seen here at Broadstone in August 1935.

A 619 would be a useful goods loco and make a nice choice for a scratchbuild with its simple outline without curved or stepped running board or crankpin splashers.  I have been planning to build one for many years but could not chase down a drawing until a diagram of the 619 Class was recently published in New Irish Lines. I would be tempted to place the motor in the tender with a carden shaft drive to a gearbox on rear axle of the loco and fill the boiler and firebox with woods metal much as I planned for a J5 many years ago.

550844178_623Broadstone09052020.thumb.jpg.ce5806f1cc465908f4f5a04872e6cd4a.jpg

Though I should post a better photo! I guess I should build one for myself!

Dont forget a Midland B class like the H class they were withdrawn because the Fs were a lot powerful than both of them.Both classes were withdrawn about 1935 butvi think on of them lasted until 1940 but i dowt that its true.

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Expanding out a bit I've put the number of the different locomotive typed based at Sligo, Mullingar, Broadstone and Limerick into a spreadsheet.

This is summary of the locos that are likely to have been seen at Sligo, obviously most of the Limerick locomotives wouldn't have worked north. It doesn't include the SLNCR engines.

This is based on the 1938 shed allocation in "Locomotives of the GSR"

Posting it here in the hope it may be of interest.

image.png.c29d034de661bbce8f1abedf632bc8b8.png

 

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11 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I suspect the J10 and J11 might have been kept at Limerick for shunting

Hi Jhb171achill,

I suspect you are correct, the J10s didn't appear to stray too far from Dublin being used for freight transfers to North Wall. 

My guess is the Limerick based ex WLWR 4-4-0s would have been used on the Waterford -  Limerick section leaving the ex GSWR D14/17/19s working north to Sligo amongst other duties.

Another surprise for me is the two moguls based at Limerick (one GSWR, one MGWR (if you can call the Woolwich moguls MGWR engines)). I wonder if these would have worked to Sligo? I don't recall seeing a photo of a mogul at Sligo from either Dublin or Limerick.

There is a Limerick allocated loco I've not been able  identified from the number which is 251.  I suspect this is a J15 but the number is skipped in Locomotives of the GSR.

Edited by Angus
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10 minutes ago, Angus said:

here is a Limerick allocated loco I've not been able  identified from the number which is 251.

251 was a J9 according to the ABC 1949 reprint.

Found this view of the 2 styles of J5 which I havn't yet put on flickr. Taken by the late JW Armstrong in the early 1950's 

635 plus another unidentified one behind at Broadstone

1123-3 ex MGWR J5 class No635 Broadstone shed Ireland (JW Ar.jpg

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2 hours ago, Angus said:

Hi Jhb171achill,

I suspect you are correct, the J10s didn't appear to stray too far from Dublin being used for freight transfers to North Wall. 

My guess is the Limerick based ex WLWR 4-4-0s would have been used on the Waterford -  Limerick section leaving the ex GSWR D14/17/19s working north to Sligo amongst other duties.

Another surprise for me is the two moguls based at Limerick (one GSWR, one MGWR (if you can call the Woolwich moguls MGWR engines)). I wonder if these would have worked to Sligo? I don't recall seeing a photo of a mogul at Sligo from either Dublin or Limerick.

There is a Limerick allocated loco I've not been able  identified from the number which is 251.  I suspect this is a J15 but the number is skipped in Locomotives of the GSR.

Angus

The Woolwich locos in Limerick were for Limerick - Waterford, and would not have gone north.

Yes, they are more GSR engines really - none ever ran in Midland days at all. The very first entered traffic in GSR grey, just after the GSR took over. In modelling terms, therefore, they are inappropriate for the Midland period.

While they didn't traverse the stone-walled fields of Gort, Ballyglunin or Tubbercurry, they DID operate on the Dublin - Galway and Dublin - Sligo routes.  I have seen a picture of one at Sligo, though they do seem to have disappeared from this line once the AEC railcars appeared in the early 1950s.

You're right about WLWR engines remaining more on the Limerick - Waterford route than north. Simply due to convenience, Billy Lohan and others recalled an influx of "Southern engines" onto the Limerick - Sligo route after 1925. I've already mentioned the preponderance of J15s on many services. According to him, Midland engines were an extreme rarity on this line, which remained very strongly "southern" in the minds of crews and senior staff too! And certainly among those who rostered locos and staff.

Billy only had a Midland engine once in some 20 years of driving Limerick - Sligo, and even that was due to his regular J15 being failed. 

GSWR engines didn't stray much onto the Midland either, though Henry Caserley recorded No. 57 at Achill in 1934 (well known pic, and in  the book).

Wagons and carriages were, obviously, a very different matter. For some time the Achill branch had a GSWR 6-wheel passenger brake van, and Midland 6-wheelers ended up in the DSER suburban, Waterford - Macmine,  Waterford - Tramore, Foynes, all over West Cork, and Cobh - to name but a few! GSWR coaches were to be seen in Ballaghaderreen and Ballinrobe until closure.

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1 hour ago, Angus said:

Hi Jhb171achill,

I suspect you are correct, the J10s didn't appear to stray too far from Dublin being used for freight transfers to North Wall. 

My guess is the Limerick based ex WLWR 4-4-0s would have been used on the Waterford -  Limerick section leaving the ex GSWR D14/17/19s working north to Sligo amongst other duties.

Another surprise for me is the two moguls based at Limerick (one GSWR, one MGWR (if you can call the Woolwich moguls MGWR engines)). I wonder if these would have worked to Sligo? I don't recall seeing a photo of a mogul at Sligo from either Dublin or Limerick.

There is a Limerick allocated loco I've not been able  identified from the number which is 251.  I suspect this is a J15 but the number is skipped in Locomotives of the GSR.

The moguls would have been too heavy to work over the Limerick-Collooney Junction line due to restricted axle load. 

The Limerick Moguls may have worked Limerick-Waterford goods trains. "They were used on passenger and goods trains on the Cork and Galway Main Lines and on the Mallow Tralee Line and on goods trains on the Dublin-Waterford and Waterford Limerick routes while for nearly thirty years they dominated the Cork-Rosslare Harbour route handling enormous boat trains over that hilly graded line"   "A Decade of Steam" Jack O'Neill & Drew Donaldson 1972?

They also wrote about the ex-WLWR J25 0-6-0 with two based in Limerick, one each in Tuam & Waterford working goods trains between these stations. They were not as strong as the J15s (smaller cylinders) their load was roughly 8 wagons less than a J15 over certain sections (e.g. Kildare-Kilkenny) 

A Sligo resident J17 234 formerly MGWR 142 Athenry was originally ordered by the WLWR and bought by the Midland following a dispute between the GSWR & Kitson the makers. These locos were to the same basic design as the other WLWR 0-6-0s but with larger cylinders and were in the same load class as the J15 and Midland Standard Goods. Originally based at Mullingar 234 had moved to Sligo by 1938, there is a WA Camwell photo of her shunting at Collooney in the GSR locomotive bible.

 

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On 5/10/2020 at 10:38 AM, Angus said:

Hi Jhb171achill,

I suspect you are correct, the J10s didn't appear to stray too far from Dublin being used for freight transfers to North Wall. 

My guess is the Limerick based ex WLWR 4-4-0s would have been used on the Waterford -  Limerick section leaving the ex GSWR D14/17/19s working north to Sligo amongst other duties.

Another surprise for me is the two moguls based at Limerick (one GSWR, one MGWR (if you can call the Woolwich moguls MGWR engines)). I wonder if these would have worked to Sligo? I don't recall seeing a photo of a mogul at Sligo from either Dublin or Limerick.

There is a Limerick allocated loco I've not been able  identified from the number which is 251.  I suspect this is a J15 but the number is skipped in Locomotives of the GSR.

Bit late to the the party here but just got a new book in the post today - the 1937 ‘Locomotives of the Great Southern Railways’. According to this, the MGW-allocated moguls were on the Dublin-Mullingar-Galway route. 

8230F16E-4ACB-4F3E-AD04-67BA0552E227.jpeg

Edited by Galteemore
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49 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Bit late to the the party here but just got a new book in the post today - the 1937 ‘Locomotives of the Great Southern Railways’. According to this, the MGW-allocated moguls were on the Dublin-Mullingar-Galway route. 

8230F16E-4ACB-4F3E-AD04-67BA0552E227.jpeg

Yes, that would be right for the time. The pics I saw of them in Sligo were twenty years later.

As mentioned before the Woolwiches can’t really be considered as really “Midland” engines - they all entered traffic new as GSR locos and while Galway was a regular run for them, so were Cork - Waterford, Waterford - Limerick and other routes way more south than the Galway line.

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1 hour ago, Galteemore said:

According to this, the MGW-allocated moguls were on the Dublin-Mullingar-Galway route. 

Thanks Galteemore,

that removes the temptation to buy a Farish version which would then probably  drive me mad trying to finescale it and move all the valve gear and the cylinders to match the wider gauge.

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The build of the GS&WR six wheeled composite is progress nicely (documented over on my Dromahair topic) so I must turn my thoughts to the first of the locos to be built. Rolling stock alone is not much use!

I had always intended this first build to be one of the SLNCR small tanks and for some reason "Lurganboy" appealed.

There are a couple of nice pictures of her over on the transportsofdelight website

LURGANBOY - 'Leitrim' Class 0-6-4T built 1895 by Beyer Peacock, Works No.3677 - withdrawn 1953.

 

LURGANBOY - 'Leitrim' Class 0-6-4T built 1895 by Beyer Peacock, Works No.3677 - withdrawn 1953.

It is not clear when the SLNCR removed the lettering from the tank sides.  The photo of the wreak of sister engine Hazelwood , derailed during the civil war, shows the lettering in use during the early to mid-twenties. Unfortunately the photos above are undated.

HAZLEWOOD -  'Leitrim' Class 0-6-4T, built 1899 by Beyer Peacock, Works No.4074 - withdrawn 1957 - seen here in a sorry state after closure.

The is another photo in Neil Sprinks's illustrated history of the SLNCR of sister engine Fermanagh moving across the facing crossover at Ballysodare, a movement it would only have done after the rationalisation of the track layout at Carrignagat Junction that enabled the removal of the signal box in September 1930. In this photo Fermanagh still has the lettering on her tanks, so edging into the time period I am modelling. I'm still undecided on the lettering but have plenty of time to make my mind up!

I do have a question, I have a GA drawing from the Beyer Peacock archive that I am converting into 2mm scale dimensions to start cutting components in advance of starting the build in earnest.

The drawing has side elevation and top section only which provides most of the key dimensions. However, I don't have a dimension for the cab width and cannot find a clear photo showing the relationship of the cab edge and the tanks to estimate the distance.

Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance!

 

Edited by Angus
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7’ across cab, Angus, if it’s same dimensions as Large Tank. Looks a circa 3 inch gap between cab side and tank edge.

Good choice of Lurganboy. I think the company offices were registered there - the real place is in the middle of nowhere but I think was the property of one of the founding families. I have seen an SLNC loco with tank side lettering at Sligo with a GSR bilingual sign behind it. Late 20s /early 30s works for me as a terminal date! 

 

Edited by Galteemore
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1 hour ago, Angus said:

............September 1930. In this photo Fermanagh still has the lettering on her tanks, so edging into the time period I am modelling. I'm still undecided on the lettering but have plenty of time to make my mind up!

Can anyone help?

Thanks in advance!

The tank-side lettering started disappearing during the 1930s, possibly the late 30s. By the late 1940s it was gone, and just plain black after that.

The nameplates varied. Some were red with polished brass raised rim and numerals, but some were painted black all over with rim and letters picked out in red. It varied from loco to loco, so with any specific model you'd need to check. 

With "Lurganboy" (an excellent choice!) photos are unclear. If you need the info I will do a bit of delving for you.

 

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9 hours ago, Galteemore said:

7’ across cab, Angus, if it’s same dimensions as Large Tank. Looks a circa 3 inch gap between cab side and tank edge.

Hi Galteemore,

That would tie in as the tanks were 7'6" across. Thanks.

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

The nameplates varied. Some were red with polished brass raised rim and numerals, but some were painted black all over with rim and letters picked out in red. It varied from loco to loco, so with any specific model you'd need to check. 

Thanks jhb171achill, 

I was aware of that particular trap, unfortunately information from the early thirties is not so readily available as later periods (which makes the period the more interesting).

If there is any direct evidence available then I will be guided by that, if not I'll default to the early standard which I think was the red (I'll check the books this evening).

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The official livery as stated by Mr Egan in 1951 was red rods and black/red numberplates. The red rods almost never show up even in colour photos. This screen grab on YouTube shows it ....But ‘Enniskillen’ seems to have had red or black plates with polished brass - as JHB says....could be a mixed bag! 

 

76EB7C28-44E4-475C-AE73-97C3B68464CD.jpeg

F769628F-408A-4B71-B3A8-08F34F6A74FC.jpeg

Edited by Galteemore
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2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

That would be great JHB, thanks. The ‘Lough Gill’ plate on display in Enniskillen has a green background which is almost certainly wrong.  

Right - did a bit of delving. First - green on such a plate is very certainly wrong. While they are not a railway museum, I do feel that if anything at all in any scenario is worth preserving, then fer gawd's sakes paint it the right colour; but I'm known for that opinion!

The following are evident in colour photographs:

Black plate with red raised rim and letters:

Sir Henry - August & September 1957*

Hazelwood - September 1957 (out of use)

Lough Erne - May 1956, 1957, also under UTA in 1963

Red plate with raised polished rim  and letters:

Sir Henry - May 1957*

Enniskillen - May 1957

Lough Erne - 1972.  By the time Lough Erne arrived at Whitehead, it had a read plate with polished letters - this was late UTA era. Loughs Erne & Melvin, on starting life with the UTA, retained their SLNCR plain black, with black nameplate - but were not repainted into lined UTA livery. While Lough Melvin appears never to have been painted in UTA livery, it must be assumed that it was scrapped like that. Lough Erne, however, got a full repaint in the last couple of years - probably about 1965 - and only at THAT stage it had a red nameplate with polished letters.

Uncertain

Lissadell - out of use at Manorhamilton, 1957; appears to have black plate with whitish letters and rim; it is possible that this very badly faded red, but does look more like white.

 

So, by the 1950s anyway, it seems that it was more usual to find a black plate with red letters than a red plate with polished letters. It is reasonable to assume that what went with Lough Erne also went with Lough Melvin.

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An interesting piece JHB - thank you! I think Lough Melvin was allocated to the GN side and Lough Erne at York Road, as LE got NCC style buffer numbers whereas LM bore GN style buffer nos. The latter also seems to have retained its black/red nameplate to the end, whereas LE as you say, got the full UTA livery treatment. 

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I'm not entirely certain that all SLNCR locos had a red connecting rod either. Dirt, of course, and lack of many photos, will "colour" this one forever at this stage!

One thing is evident - EVERY colour photo I have seen of ALL Sligo Leitrim engines appear to show a black connecting rod - even on withdrawn ones, where workaday grime could be expected to have worn off and revealed some sort of salmony-pink faded red. there is no sign of red at all.

 

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2 minutes ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Think I got mine wrong then?

 

984739003_Hazelwoodloco.thumb.JPG.0cffc2b125b8a43ac05e97602e3b6b1e.JPG

Well, the one colour photo shows it as per the list above, however even within the final year between May and August Sir Henry had both styles. I can't help feeling that many or most of them started out as your model (very nice one!), but later got black paint just slapped over them. I can't see any great economy in it, either, if that was any sort of reason.

So, Sir H had a shiny polished one in May, but painted over by August.  

Thus, it is at least possible, but probably likely, that "Hazelwood" was as per your model for much of its life. We could trawl older B&W photos, but they're not ideal. As I said above, while it cannot be categorically denied, there is certainly no evidence of red connecting rods. Thus, in terms of strict accuracy, I'd yours passes the test.

Even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter as it is a very fine model. Scratchbuilt?

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Yes, it struck me when I read it! This was in his address to the IRRS in 1951. Given his expertise, and that of his audience, I think that he must have upheld this as the ex-works house style - he would have been challenged in such a gathering if inaccurate !! The pic above at Manorhamilton shows what it could look like when fresh, and I have seen glimpses of the red rods elsewhere. A Hamilton Ellis picture also shows a ‘small tank’ thus treated. Interestingly, the No 9 journal where his talk is published, has a b-w picture which shows Lough Erne absolutely box-fresh in black and the rods are burnished steel - as are the handrails and smokebox door hinges!! The name plates are also burnished bright. Presumably Manorhamilton applied the red paint in the summer of 51 when the locos finally made it across. Doubtless the Sligo Leitrim weather, grease/oil and workshop handling wore the red paint off very quickly though.
 

I would be interested to see if the burnished red plates coincided with an SLNC loco’s visits to Dundalk Works...

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