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Recent posts have touched on all sorts of matters related to the much-awaited grey 121s appearing, plus the rest of them; what train consists are realistic, tin vans, livery mixtures, what ran with what, good stock, and the big issue of the sheer variety of what was to be seen on the railway in the 1960-70 period, or - to put it another way - into what environment did grey 121s appear.

This applies, of course, equally to the forthcoming silver, green, black, and black'n'tan "A" class - and for those who have the likes of their Silverfox cousins, B101, "G" and "C" classes.

The first thing - for modellers who have had fewer birthdays (and decades!) than I, is that the entire railway system changed more in the early 1970s than even at the end of steam. Block trains of uniform stock only then appeared and became the norm; a concept totally unknown when the first 121s roared up to Dundalk with a good train (they worked goods before they ever worked passenger!). Sidings and small stations dramatically reduced and eventually vanished. In both goods and passenger trains, barely two vehicles were alike, such was the huge variety of stock.

Unlike today, when each type of train has different couplings, ALL railway vehicles, north, south, east and west, used exactly the same couplings, so the idea of incompatibility between couplings simply didn't exist. At all.

If a modeller had limitless skill, limitless time, limitless budget and limitless imagination, it would still be a hard ask to reproduce this period in all its detail. So I thought I'd fish out a few more pics as well as the ones I posted during the lockdown, but with more of an emphasis on the 1960s - the period when the "grey'n'green" era would morph into the "black'n'tan" era. My earliest railway memories belong to this time, and thus is my preferred period, but the real point is that opinion or not, this was the most varied time in the railway - arguably ever.

Many books are full of photos of the time, and I would recommend detailed perusal of photos in them all - always look what's in the background! 

To try to cut through a mass of information for modellers who get the grey or black'n'tan 121s, and who get the pre-"supertrain" liveries on the IRM "A"s, a few simple broad pointers, first - exceptions existed, but this gives the broad gist:

 

Timeline

1960    "A" and B101 classes dominate most main line goods train, with AEC railcars dominating most passenger trains, though loco-hauled too. Some steam still, mostly on branches like the North Wexford, Ardee, Ballaghaderreen, Ballinrobe, Kenmare, and Loughrea. Almost no regular steam anywhere else, though ballast and (seasonally) beet brings them out of the woodwork. They almost all look extremely run-down. Many six-wheel carriages are still in use - the passenger brakes being mostly GSWR, and the passenger-carrying ones mostly Midland. The vast majority of these six-wheelers are in Cork, and used on Cobh commuter trains at rush hour, and summer Youghal excursions. All goods trains are loose-coupled, and shunting and spare locos are based all over the place, with many steam sheds still being open to cater for them. All wagons are grey, without any exceptions, all passenger stock is green, except for a small few still not repainted from the short-lived "silver" (which is now filthy nondescript grey), and around the former-GNR lines, and the DSER, a few ex-GNR coaches still in either brown or dark blue and cream.

Everything has guard's vans. There is no such thing as air-braking, nor will there be for many years. All goods train are loose-coupled, so must have a goods brake at the end, unless it's maybe a single goods wagon tacked onto the back of a passenger train, as sometimes happened. All passenger trains will have a guard's coach, almost always a six-wheel passenger brake of GSWR parentage, or a modern "tin van".

 

1961    121s appear. The grey Murphy ones! They will retain this livery for a few years, with repaints to black'n'tan between 1964/5 and about 1968. So, a clean 121 will have green coaches and loose-coupled wagons with guard's van. Other diesels are a mixture of either silver or green.

 

1962    Towards the end of the year, a decision is taken to bring in the black'n'tan livery, which has been applied to a few coaches.

 

1963    The 141s start entering traffic, and a major drive appears to take place to repaint carriages in black'n'tan. The last passenger-carrying six-wheelers are withdrawn in Cork in the spring, leaving about six or seven full-brake six wheel coaches in the new livery; the last of these will survive until 1968/9 on the Galway line.

Working steam comes to an end after 129 years. By this stage, steam working has actually become extremely rare, with the few branchlines where it eked out its last days now closed or made goods-only. B101, E, A & C class locos start being painted black'n'tan; after a while, some will be repainted all-black, and after that some - but not all - of the A & C classes will get the yellow patches. The new "Craven" coaches appear; at first, and for a good few years, they will only be seen on main lines. Thus, laminates and Park Royals, plus still a few wooden bogies and Bredins, provide the stock for the majority of trains, and all secondary services.

 

1964/5   By now, something over half of the passenger stock is in the new livery, the rest green; thus, a grey 121 will need at least SOME green carriages! Many tin vans retain increasingly shoddy "silver", others are green, and others again in BnT. All good remains loose-coupled, and the "palvans" are introduced.

 

1967     The 181s appear. By now, the very first cement bubbles do too - they run a few at a time in ordinary goods trains, or as a set - but not in braked block trains - thus, a guard's van is necessary with the initial (grey) ones (as it is with beet trains!). Talking of which, open wagons are now about two-thirds "Bullied" corrugated types, with the rest wooden-sided traditional ones, mostly of 1940s Inchicore construction.

 

1969/70  It's beginning to look more modern now. The 4-wheel "back-to-backs", containers, and the longer-wheelbase four wheel flats are appearing. The re-engining programme is making B201s out of the "C" class, and AxxR out of the "A" class, with the all-black loco livery finally disappearing in favour of everything being variations (high and low waistband) of black'n'tan. The new NIR "Enterprise" heralds the first example of British-outline standard trains of a same type of coach. The bubbles are being repainted orange body and grey chassis, with the newest ones delivered that way, and containers are becoming more common. The die is cast; in only 2 years' time, we'll have the Mk 2s and "supertrains".

The wagons start being repainted brown. By the end of loose-coupled trains in 1976, about two thirds were brown, the rest still grey, with even a tiny few still with flying snails.

BR and Dutch vans start appearing; now, the tin vans start retiring. The last will still be in use on Ballina - Limerick - Rosslare in 1976/7. But for the 1960s they really ARE needed!

 

Liveries

Apart from details mentioned above, the simplest summary would be:

A, C, B101:  Silver new, repaints into green from 1958, with the last few C's entering traffic green.

121: Grey and yellow at start - first to be black'n'tan 1964 or 5; last about 1968/9.

141 / 181: Black'n'tan from new. 1412s have no CIE badge when delivered (the "roundel" has not yet been invented!) but the 181s do, and at that stage they start putting them on the 141s too.

Oddballs: The three E401s / G601s - silver, green, black. Never black'n'tan. The seven G611s - black or black'n'tan always, never green. E421s - black or black'n'tan always. The "K" class - GNR navy, then CIE green, then all black.

Carriages:

Sixwheelers - all green to the end (1963) except for the half dozen full brakes which stayed on during the 60s - they got black'n'tan by 1964.

Wooden carriages - those in traffic got black'n'tan by 1968 or were scrapped.

Bredins, Park Royals, all the many types of laminates, Cravens - all black'n'tan. First ones 1963, last green ones about 1967.

Wagons:

Grey. Nothing brown at all until 1970s, thus long after grey 121s were black'n'tan. 

 

Train Consists

Now, these are TYPICAL: by NO means exhaustive, as readers will appreciate!

Passenger trains

Main line: 121, Crossley "A" or 141, maybe nine carriages plus vans: 

Tin van

Laminate

Craven

Laminate

Park Royal

Craven

Craven

Bredin

Laminate

Tin heating van

Mail van extra? Bogie of GSR or early CIE origin.

Secondary or branch line:

Two to five coaches plus tin van. Coaches will be old wooden bogies, laminates, Park Royals occasionally, or laminates of various types. Greater number of still-green stock! Loco - "C", 121 or 141.

Goods:

Mostly "A" class, green or black. Old guard's vans gone by about 1964, with standard CIE 20T and 30T types all over the place. Last GNR ones scrapped, not that CIE ever used them much!

While many modern layouts have the various types of modern bright yellow maintenance train consists, in the 1960s all PW and maintenance stuff was - you guessed it - grey! BUT - sadly - instead of a train of pristine HOBS, I've yet to see modelled that all-too-familiar sight coming out of a junction in the 1960s - a dirty "C" class with the LIFTING train from a closed branch:

The following from a large amount of new material that I am going through, and will need a decent quality scanner and printer for:

(All pics P Dillon Collection)

It is THIS world into which the brand new grey 121 class "yanks" appeared. How very different from the world they left about fifteen years ago.

The very last photo shows a scene so rare, it may be unique. A NEWLY-PAINTED grey J15 in Cork - one of the last few steam engines painted, and which would be scrapped only months later, with a GSWR bogie in quite new black'n'tan. The first black'n'tan stock appeared only a year or so before the last steam engine was withdrawn. In this instance, the steam engine is on shunting duties. See how clean "new" grey paint looked!

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IMG_4963 (2).JPG

IMG_4965 (2).JPG

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12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Recent posts have touched on all sorts of matters related to the much-awaited grey 121s appearing, plus the rest of them; what train consists are realistic, tin vans, livery mixtures, what ran with what, good stock, and the big issue of the sheer variety of what was to be seen on the railway in the 1960-70 period, or - to put it another way - into what environment did grey 121s appear.

This applies, of course, equally to the forthcoming silver, green, black, and black'n'tan "A" class - and for those who have the likes of their Silverfox cousins, B101, "G" and "C" classes.

The first thing - for modellers who have had fewer birthdays (and decades!) than I, is that the entire railway system changed more in the early 1970s than even at the end of steam. Block trains of uniform stock only then appeared and became the norm; a concept totally unknown when the first 121s roared up to Dundalk with a good train (they worked goods before they ever worked passenger!). Sidings and small stations dramatically reduced and eventually vanished. In both goods and passenger trains, barely two vehicles were alike, such was the huge variety of stock.

Unlike today, when each type of train has different couplings, ALL railway vehicles, north, south, east and west, used exactly the same couplings, so the idea of incompatibility between couplings simply didn't exist. At all.

If a modeller had limitless skill, limitless time, limitless budget and limitless imagination, it would still be a hard ask to reproduce this period in all its detail. So I thought I'd fish out a few more pics as well as the ones I posted during the lockdown, but with more of an emphasis on the 1960s - the period when the "grey'n'green" era would morph into the "black'n'tan" era. My earliest railway memories belong to this time, and thus is my preferred period, but the real point is that opinion or not, this was the most varied time in the railway - arguably ever.

Many books are full of photos of the time, and I would recommend detailed perusal of photos in them all - always look what's in the background! 

To try to cut through a mass of information for modellers who get the grey or black'n'tan 121s, and who get the pre-"supertrain" liveries on the IRM "A"s, a few simple broad pointers, first - exceptions existed, but this gives the broad gist:

 

Timeline

1960    "A" and B101 classes dominate most main line goods train, with AEC railcars dominating most passenger trains, though loco-hauled too. Some steam still, mostly on branches like the North Wexford, Ardee, Ballaghaderreen, Ballinrobe, Kenmare, and Loughrea. Almost no regular steam anywhere else, though ballast and (seasonally) beet brings them out of the woodwork. They almost all look extremely run-down. Many six-wheel carriages are still in use - the passenger brakes being mostly GSWR, and the passenger-carrying ones mostly Midland. The vast majority of these six-wheelers are in Cork, and used on Cobh commuter trains at rush hour, and summer Youghal excursions. All goods trains are loose-coupled, and shunting and spare locos are based all over the place, with many steam sheds still being open to cater for them. All wagons are grey, without any exceptions, all passenger stock is green, except for a small few still not repainted from the short-lived "silver" (which is now filthy nondescript grey), and around the former-GNR lines, and the DSER, a few ex-GNR coaches still in either brown or dark blue and cream.

Everything has guard's vans. There is no such thing as air-braking, nor will there be for many years. All goods train are loose-coupled, so must have a goods brake at the end, unless it's maybe a single goods wagon tacked onto the back of a passenger train, as sometimes happened. All passenger trains will have a guard's coach, almost always a six-wheel passenger brake of GSWR parentage, or a modern "tin van".

 

1961    121s appear. The grey Murphy ones! They will retain this livery for a few years, with repaints to black'n'tan between 1964/5 and about 1968. So, a clean 121 will have green coaches and loose-coupled wagons with guard's van. Other diesels are a mixture of either silver or green.

 

1962    Towards the end of the year, a decision is taken to bring in the black'n'tan livery, which has been applied to a few coaches.

 

1963    The 141s start entering traffic, and a major drive appears to take place to repaint carriages in black'n'tan. The last passenger-carrying six-wheelers are withdrawn in Cork in the spring, leaving about six or seven full-brake six wheel coaches in the new livery; the last of these will survive until 1968/9 on the Galway line.

Working steam comes to an end after 129 years. By this stage, steam working has actually become extremely rare, with the few branchlines where it eked out its last days now closed or made goods-only. B101, E, A & C class locos start being painted black'n'tan; after a while, some will be repainted all-black, and after that some - but not all - of the A & C classes will get the yellow patches. The new "Craven" coaches appear; at first, and for a good few years, they will only be seen on main lines. Thus, laminates and Park Royals, plus still a few wooden bogies and Bredins, provide the stock for the majority of trains, and all secondary services.

 

1964/5   By now, something over half of the passenger stock is in the new livery, the rest green; thus, a grey 121 will need at least SOME green carriages! Many tin vans retain increasingly shoddy "silver", others are green, and others again in BnT. All good remains loose-coupled, and the "palvans" are introduced.

 

1967     The 181s appear. By now, the very first cement bubbles do too - they run a few at a time in ordinary goods trains, or as a set - but not in braked block trains - thus, a guard's van is necessary with the initial (grey) ones (as it is with beet trains!). Talking of which, open wagons are now about two-thirds "Bullied" corrugated types, with the rest wooden-sided traditional ones, mostly of 1940s Inchicore construction.

 

1969/70  It's beginning to look more modern now. The 4-wheel "back-to-backs", containers, and the longer-wheelbase four wheel flats are appearing. The re-engining programme is making B201s out of the "C" class, and AxxR out of the "A" class, with the all-black loco livery finally disappearing in favour of everything being variations (high and low waistband) of black'n'tan. The new NIR "Enterprise" heralds the first example of British-outline standard trains of a same type of coach. The bubbles are being repainted orange body and grey chassis, with the newest ones delivered that way, and containers are becoming more common. The die is cast; in only 2 years' time, we'll have the Mk 2s and "supertrains".

The wagons start being repainted brown. By the end of loose-coupled trains in 1976, about two thirds were brown, the rest still grey, with even a tiny few still with flying snails.

BR and Dutch vans start appearing; now, the tin vans start retiring. The last will still be in use on Ballina - Limerick - Rosslare in 1976/7. But for the 1960s they really ARE needed!

 

Liveries

Apart from details mentioned above, the simplest summary would be:

A, C, B101:  Silver new, repaints into green from 1958, with the last few C's entering traffic green.

121: Grey and yellow at start - first to be black'n'tan 1964 or 5; last about 1968/9.

141 / 181: Black'n'tan from new. 1412s have no CIE badge when delivered (the "roundel" has not yet been invented!) but the 181s do, and at that stage they start putting them on the 141s too.

Oddballs: The three E401s / G601s - silver, green, black. Never black'n'tan. The seven G611s - black or black'n'tan always, never green. E421s - black or black'n'tan always. The "K" class - GNR navy, then CIE green, then all black.

Carriages:

Sixwheelers - all green to the end (1963) except for the half dozen full brakes which stayed on during the 60s - they got black'n'tan by 1964.

Wooden carriages - those in traffic got black'n'tan by 1968 or were scrapped.

Bredins, Park Royals, all the many types of laminates, Cravens - all black'n'tan. First ones 1963, last green ones about 1967.

Wagons:

Grey. Nothing brown at all until 1970s, thus long after grey 121s were black'n'tan. 

 

Train Consists

Now, these are TYPICAL: by NO means exhaustive, as readers will appreciate!

Passenger trains

Main line: 121, Crossley "A" or 141, maybe nine carriages plus vans: 

Tin van

Laminate

Craven

Laminate

Park Royal

Craven

Craven

Bredin

Laminate

Tin heating van

Mail van extra? Bogie of GSR or early CIE origin.

Secondary or branch line:

Two to five coaches plus tin van. Coaches will be old wooden bogies, laminates, Park Royals occasionally, or laminates of various types. Greater number of still-green stock! Loco - "C", 121 or 141.

Goods:

Mostly "A" class, green or black. Old guard's vans gone by about 1964, with standard CIE 20T and 30T types all over the place. Last GNR ones scrapped, not that CIE ever used them much!

While many modern layouts have the various types of modern bright yellow maintenance train consists, in the 1960s all PW and maintenance stuff was - you guessed it - grey! BUT - sadly - instead of a train of pristine HOBS, I've yet to see modelled that all-too-familiar sight coming out of a junction in the 1960s - a dirty "C" class with the LIFTING train from a closed branch:

The following from a large amount of new material that I am going through, and will need a decent quality scanner and printer for:

(All pics P Dillon Collection)

It is THIS world into which the brand new grey 121 class "yanks" appeared. How very different from the world they left about fifteen years ago.

The very last photo shows a scene so rare, it may be unique. A NEWLY-PAINTED grey J15 in Cork - one of the last few steam engines painted, and which would be scrapped only months later, with a GSWR bogie in quite new black'n'tan. The first black'n'tan stock appeared only a year or so before the last steam engine was withdrawn. In this instance, the steam engine is on shunting duties. See how clean "new" grey paint looked!

IMG_4988 (2).JPG

IMG_4987 (2).JPG

IMG_4992 (2).JPG

IMG_4989 (2).JPG

IMG_4990 (2).JPG

IMG_4986 (2).JPG

IMG_4985 (2).JPG

IMG_4983 (2).JPG

IMG_4979 (2).JPG

IMG_4980 (2).JPG

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IMG_4982 (2).JPG

IMG_4978 (2).JPG

IMG_4974 (2).JPG

IMG_4964 (2).JPG

IMG_4963 (2).JPG

IMG_4965 (2).JPG

Excellent and informative post as ever jhb. My one and only piece of Irish railway memorabilia from the 1960s, is a 1962 timetable.

In it there are a handful of named trains (3 in all), given 1962 is pre-Cravens I wondered what sort of stock both motive power and carriages one should expect to see on the Sláinte, Fáilte and Cú na Mara of this period or were these all railcars?

While I don't model this early, I still find it a fascinating period across Europe - so much change and innovation, arguably more so than any other single decade.

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 Fascinating photos there John, I'm hoping we will get to see many more from the Dillon collection. Two questions, when we're the last CiE 20 and 30 ton brake vans to be seen in grey? I have the impression they were repainted Into brown rather quickly. Also were any green coaches still running when the yellow panel was introduced on the A and C class?

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57 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Excellent and informative post as ever jhb. My one and only piece of Irish railway memorabilia from the 1960s, is a 1962 timetable.

In it there are a handful of named trains (3 in all), given 1962 is pre-Cravens I wondered what sort of stock both motive power and carriages one should expect to see on the Sláinte, Fáilte and Cú na Mara of this period or were these all railcars?

Hi Hexagon

These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it.

There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. 

The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series.

A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. 

A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class.

Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. 

Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green.
 

You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.

 

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Interesting stuff, Jon. The pic of Glanmire was a real Provincial Wagons Benefit with all those CIE cattle wagons! (Cheque in post, as usual).

The shot of 193 is on the IRRS's St Pat's Day tour in  1962 (No.207 Boyne to Cork) when No.193 was really dolled up by the local staff for the event. If someone well tell me how to upload a 8Mb file, I'll post  the late Lance King's version of the same scene - IN COLOUR!

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9 minutes ago, patrick said:

 Fascinating photos there John, I'm hoping we will get to see many more from the Dillon collection. Two questions, when we're the last CiE 20 and 30 ton brake vans to be seen in grey? I have the impression they were repainted Into brown rather quickly. Also were any green coaches still running when the yellow panel was introduced on the A and C class?

I’ll be going through this collection over the winter. It’s not indexed or catalogued, shoe boxes full of old prints, in all sorts of shapes. Some notes of some of it. You’ll get a UTA “Jeep” and then a Dublin tram....

Mostly “grey’n’green” era CIE, though, very appropriate for this thread.

As I mentioned, it has to be said that few of the images are much good, so much sifting is necessary!

The vans you mention obviously started life in grey. From about 1963 or so they started adding the yellow and black “wasp stripes” to the duckets, with black above and below them. Like everything else they only started painting them brown in 1970, but you are right in that they seemed to repaint more of them, and quicker, before the end of loose-coupled goods in ‘76.

By the end, very few vans were still grey. I only ever saw one at that time, in Heuston goods yard (I think) about 1974/5.

Green coaches were - in lessening numbers - a feature until c.1967/8, and that did overlap with the “yellow patch” livery.

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1 hour ago, murphaph said:

We're cattle only transported to docks for onward live shipment or were they also transported to meat factories in Ireland by rail?

Latterly, to Cabra, but in days past for export too, from North Wall and Maysfields in Belfast, where “Central” Station is now.

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3 hours ago, patrick said:

 Fascinating photos there John, I'm hoping we will get to see many more from the Dillon collection. Two questions, when we're the last CiE 20 and 30 ton brake vans to be seen in grey? I have the impression they were repainted Into brown rather quickly. Also were any green coaches still running when the yellow panel was introduced on the A and C class?

Forgot to add, Patrick, in terms of what coaches were green during the "yellow patch" and "plain" black liveries, a reasonable rule of thumb might be, for ALL types of coach other than Cravens:

1960  Most green, a few silver

1961   Most green, silver very rare and mostly confined to tin vans and a few mail vans

1962   As above, silver very rare

1963   80% green, 20% black'n'tan  (End of six-wheelers / start of Cravens which were BnT from new)

1964   60% green, 40% BnT

1965   25% green, 75% BnT

1966   10% green, 90% BnT

1967   5% green, most BnT

1968   Very occasional green, mostly an old mail van or tin van - virtually 100% of all stock BnT

1969   All BnT  -  Last of the all-black and yellow-patch liveries.

1970   All BnT

1971    All BnT

1972 onwards - all BnT except the new A/C (Mk 2) stock; this was the dawn of the "orange and black" era, and the "Supertrain" livery.

Edited by jhb171achill
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22 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

IIMG_4963 (2).JPG

 

Interesting to see this cravens coach, 1504, the coach leader as I recall with the second class numeral on the door. More familiar to most as the MM 1504TL 00 model also on BnT but without any class numbers. When was standard class adopted (when did they lose the door numbers as such)?

Did the first class coaches like 1149 retain a "1" on the doors even after they became 'Superstandards'?

Edited by DiveController
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1 hour ago, flange lubricator said:

Yes they retained the 1st on the doors as did the Mk2s /Mk3s , also of interest no TL on 1504 the cravens as with all other coaches were fitted with battery boxes and dynamos until the early 1970’s and the arrival of the BR vans . 

Indeed - and it carried on into comparatively modern times, and on NIR as well until the mid 1990s.

My personal recollections suggest that by approximately 1972 anyway, maybe before, the "2"s on Craven (and other laminates, Park Royals, etc) were all gone. I suspect they disappeared in the late 60s, along with the last green coaches.

 

A snapshot of the 1960s this evening, following a little jaunt I made to Hawkins Street this afternoon......

The black'n'white photo shows that (in this case about 1960), this short wheelbase coach, I THINK of Wisht Caaark origin, boy, was still in the old pre-1955 darker green. A handful of coaches - mostly, in fact, in Cork - retained this old livery just past 1960.

IMG_5028.JPG

IMG_E5024.JPG

IMG_5029.JPG

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10 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Hexagon

These trains were made up largely of laminates of several types built between 1951 (pre-“laminate” construction but similar appearance) to 1959/60. I have a pic somewhere of the inside of one of the studio coaches which was (in this case) an old wooden GSWR coach. I’ll try to find it.

There might have been an odd Bredin among them, but Park Royals would be less likely. 

The dining car could be an old GSWR one, or one of the new 2400 series.

A “tin van” or maybe a couple of them typically took up the rear. 

A train of this nature would be nice behind one of the forthcoming “A” class.

Motive power would be a specially cleaned up “A” for these. Like steam engines, Crossley “A”s didn’t stay clean too long but these trains (which I very vaguely remember) were pristine. 

Naturally, loco and coaches at the time you mention were green.
 

You mention timetables. If there is any year you’re interested in, PM me and I’ll scan images of it to you.

 

Thanks for that jhb, very interesting and insightful. I believe that at some point in the 1950s the Cú na Mara at least was a double railcar set (I think two 4-car splitting into Galway and Westport portions, so I wasn't sure if given the issues with 'A' Class reliability that situation was perpetuated into the 1960s.

 

Thanks for your kind offer re timetables, a year or so ago I found a website with a small collection of 1910s-1930s Bradshaws scans including ones for Ireland in 1938. I forgot to bookmark the site and have been unable to locate it since, I don't suppose you have 1938 at all?

I have a good selection of 1970s-1980s timetables but the other period which interests me is when steam was still king particularly the GSR B1a/800 Class post-war, so anything from when more normal service resumed in the early 1950s would be interesting as well to see what sort of timings services were getting, say 1951? I think things were relatively improved from the coal shortages by then.

I think I mentioned once before reading a dissemination of the 1933 GSR timetable and at first being rather shocked by the journey times and paucity of service but then thinking how damn' lucky we are to have such frequent and fast trains (relatively speaking) on both sides of the Irish Sea nowadays compared to some years in the past.

 

 

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1 minute ago, hexagon789 said:

 

 

Thanks for your kind offer re timetables, a year or so ago I found a website with a small collection of 1910s-1930s Bradshaws scans including ones for Ireland in 1938. I forgot to bookmark the site and have been unable to locate it since, I don't suppose you have 1938 at all?

 

 

 

Indeed - in those days, and until comparatively modern times, most railway companies did a summer and winter timetable. For 1938 I have June & September. Ping me what lines you want and I'll send them to you.

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2 hours ago, DiveController said:

Interesting to see this cravens coach, 1504, the coach leader as I recall with the second class numeral on the door. More familiar to most as the MM 1504TL 00 model also on BnT but without any class numbers. When was standard class adopted (when did they lose the door numbers as such)?

Did the first class coaches like 1149 retain a "1" on the doors even after they became 'Superstandards'?

Yes they did. The Cravens Superstandards, MkIId Superstandards and Composites all had a white "I" on the doors.

Second Class became Standard in I think 1966, I did see a date somewhere in the Journals.

Edited by hexagon789
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10 hours ago, murphaph said:

We're cattle only transported to docks for onward live shipment or were they also transported to meat factories in Ireland by rail?

Cattle traffic ceased in 1975, the heaviest traffic used to be from the seasonal cattle fairs from cattle breeding country in the West and Southwest to farms in the East for fattening (finishing) and for export.

Most of the cattle traffic was lost with the shift from seasonal cattle fairs to cattle marts and the shift from live exports to meat processing during the 1960s.

In later years cattle was transported by rail to meat factories plants at Roscrea and Grand Canal Street Dublin were served directly by rail, the Leixlip Plant was served by road from Hazlehatch on the Cork Line and Leixlip on the Galway Line. Leixlip and Hazelhatch were among the last stations to handle livestock traffic.

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15 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Yes they did. The Cravens Superstandards, MkIId Superstandards and Composites all had a white "I" on the doors.

Second Class became Standard in I think 1966, I did see a date somewhere in the Journals.

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

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7 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

I'm wondering if it might actually have been in Des Coakham's book on Irish carriages, because my only 1960s journal doesn't appear to mention the change but I've definitely seen it somewhere because I want to say something like the 4th April 1966 but I'm not at all certain on that date.

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This picture of a cattle wagon with vacuum brake clearly has no manual brake lever. Were these vac braked wagons all conversions from hand braked or were some built with vac brakes. Was the manual lever always removed on conversions. Also I notice that the vac brakes meant four brake shoes per side compared to one ( I think) per side on the hand braked wagons. The axle box and springing detail is also very clear in the photo. Your photo of the grain hopper wagon is an ex Northern wagon with N suffix that is different to most of the other types we see. A fabulous amount of detail in this thread.

 

image.png.9d0c6667be3f894d90714b9375d09958.png

 

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1 minute ago, TimO said:

This picture of a cattle wagon with vacuum brake clearly has no manual brake lever. Were these vac braked wagons all conversions from hand braked or were some built with vac brakes. Was the manual lever always removed on conversions. Also I notice that the vac brakes meant four brake shoes per side compared to one ( I think) per side on the hand braked wagons. The axle box and springing detail is also very clear in the photo. Your photo of the grain hopper wagon is an ex Northern wagon with N suffix that is different to most of the other types we see. A fabulous amount of detail in this thread.

 

image.png.9d0c6667be3f894d90714b9375d09958.png

 

Isn't that small wheel on the far right-hand bottom of the wagon a brake wheel?

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1 minute ago, TimO said:

Of course, too busy looking for a lever. Also I thought vac brakes had a ‘string’ to pull but I don’t see one. 

Easily done! I've done that many times overlooking something because I've been expecting a particular version and the item in question has a variant/different type.

I know what you mean about the "strings" but I'm not sure everything had "strings" I think there were alternatives. In that respect I'm not sure what to look for though.

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12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Sounds about right. I think the UTA / new NIR changed "second" to "standard" about 1967.

 

13 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Yes they did. The Cravens Superstandards, MkIId Superstandards and Composites all had a white "I" on the doors.

Second Class became Standard in I think 1966, I did see a date somewhere in the Journals.

Second became standard from 20/09/65.

2 hours ago, TimO said:

Of course, too busy looking for a lever. Also I thought vac brakes had a ‘string’ to pull but I don’t see one. 

Vac cylinder looks very close to the near solebar, so could be possible to pull the valve by reaching in from this side. May just need a string the far side. 

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5 hours ago, BSGSV said:

Second became standard from 20/09/65.

Now you've posted the correct date, I've no idea where I got my 1966 date from!

Interesting month to choose September, given most major changes generally happen with new timetables which are typically April/May/June.

Or in the case of First Class being rebranded Superstandard then new rolling stock.

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Interesting - I didn't have the exact date either. My guesstimation above is that the UTA were just a bit later? Early NIR tickets still had "second class" on them, I think. So that would make it 1967 or 1968 on the new NIR - can anyone confirm?

In terms of Craven livery, then, it may be taken that they ALL had "2" on their doors when new, and after 1965 - or, on first ever repaint if not before - these were painted out.

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4 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Interesting - I didn't have the exact date either. My guesstimation above is that the UTA were just a bit later? Early NIR tickets still had "second class" on them, I think. So that would make it 1967 or 1968 on the new NIR - can anyone confirm?

In terms of Craven livery, then, it may be taken that they ALL had "2" on their doors when new, and after 1965 - or, on first ever repaint if not before - these were painted out.

I've often wondered why they had the "2"s given CIÉ wasn't operating a 3 class system, surely they didn't think passengers would mistake the interiors for First Class?

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It was just a throwback to when there was 1, 2 or 3.....

The GSR abandoned second class in the 1920s, soon after its inception. Narrow gauge lines abandoned it early - although few ever had it to start with. The GNR did a few years later. But the NCC kept the three-class system until the late 1940s!

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