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6 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Did Cultra paint anything in the right colours?!

Well....

OK, first, as a one-time preservationist, I am well aware of the outrage when anyone dares to even comment on colours of things, so I do not want to stoke that; I've been there, got the T shirt, having once painted a coach at Whitehead in a gaudy purply red, as the paint supplier made a mess of the order......... so, for any active preservationists, please take my comments as factual.

In Cultra, everything is correct except:

1.  Maedb. 

She's in CIE Inchicore-painted green, not GSR green as sometimes mistakenly assumed, but has GSR markings which were not put there until she arrived in Cultra. As a GS loco, she'd a have a different green, and yellow and black lining, not white and black, which was pure CIE.

2.  BCDR No. 30.

The green is light years too light, makes her look like an Isle of Man engine. BCDR green was very dark indeed, and if this wretched covid thing EVER ends, can be seen in the Malahide museum on two models.

3. CDRJC open wagon.

This is in actual original Donegal paint, but seems to have acquired black strapping in preservation. That's not accurate. I can't fathom why the preservation movement is obsessed with painting ironwork and corner strapping on wagons black, as it never was on almost all wagon types.

4.  CIE Goods Brake Van.

Black and white stripes on the lookout ducket. Should be yellow and black. The CIE "roundel" and numerals aren't quite right either, but to fair, that latter is serious nit-picking!

5.  Cavan & Leitrim and Castlederg coaches.

The lettering on these is completely wrong. Self-adhesive "Arial" plastic lettering? The maroon appears to be correct, or certainly close enough, but the lettering would have been shaded yellow or gold leaf. Again, just for the record, but nit-picking!

6.  Hunslet diesel 102.

Again, very minor detail - there should be white lining around the ends yellow patches. It's been given a truly superb paint finish, it has to be said. I suspect that it's the way it is simply due to short time - it hasn't got its numbers and NIR logos last time I saw it. These were gold with white lining.

7.  GSWR Explosives van.

I'm not 100% on this, but last time I saw it, it occurred to me that the lettering wasn't quite right - not sure why!

That's all I can remember... but again, I state the above as a matter of record for those interested. Many won't be!

10 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

I think they ran to Limerick at one point, possibly when first in service, I'm sure I've seen a flier with timings somewhere. I did also read a very short piece in a society publication about the GSR cars which said they later ran to Sligo(!?). I've never come across that anywhere else though, the same publication stated that the underframe of one survived on a vehicle in departmental use until ~1981.

There was certainly a trial run to Limerick with one, though I do not recall the full details.

 

7 minutes ago, NorthWallDocker said:

 

I think a rake would look great behind an 800-class loco, even though they worked solo in other trains.

 

lndeed it would - even though they didn't even run as a rake behind 800! Senior recalled them at one stage having "Great Southern Pullman" in gold letters above window level, but I've never seen a pic showing that - propably only on one, and short-lived.

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To go back to the original topic, about RTR steam engines. As others mentioned, this conversation has sprung up here and there over the years, often morphing into "wish lists". From a commer

Have to agree there on brass kits! I would recommend kits from Studio Scale Models- J15, Bandon Tank, Maebh and Merlin are all available in full kit form including the chassis and can be built to

Not a million miles off a GSR/GSWR 301 class/D11 - in original form. Those Wainwright locos are things of real beauty and even those of us who prize the Irish 4-4-0 as the epitome of loco elegance mus

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To go back to the original topic, about RTR steam engines.

As others mentioned, this conversation has sprung up here and there over the years, often morphing into "wish lists".

From a commercial point of view, doing a model of a diesel or a CIE coach means (usually) a model which could have been seen anywhere from Cork to Dundalk, Rosslare to Sligo; and even Cavan, Monaghan and Dundalk, as well as the main line to Belfast - and all of this over a period of maybe 40 years.

141s and laminates even made it to Omagh and Derry. Fertiliser bogies were regulars in the NCC (Waterside) station, so would fit a layout based on the NCC main line. Killagan, 1980, anyone? Nice!

But steam engines....

Many were only to be seen in one area. You can't do an accurate west of Ireland layout with GNR 4.4.0s or Bandon tanks. You can't do ANYWHERE but the main Cork line with 400s, 500s or 800s. The only diesel equivalent here is B101s, which rarely strayed off the GSWR lines.

Even the most common steam loco, the J15, was absent from West Cork, as were all tender engines. The northern equivalent, the "WT" class "2.6.4T "Jeep", was rare away from the NCC, apart from residencies of a few of the class on the GNR in the late 60s; they even managed appearances on the "Derry Road", but only right at the end. Apart from RPSI outings, they were not known anywhere on the rest of the CIE system, and J15s never worked on the GNR, let alone the NCC, bar a bit of York Road shunting with RPSI-owned 186 about 1968!

Just about any steam engine suffers from several things, in terms of its application to layouts:

1. In terms or realistic operation, lack of geographical variety.

2. Cost. With such small runs, very pricey per item and way beyond the means of some modellers.

3. Less interest, especially amongst modellers too young to remember steam working. Even an oul fossil like me has more memories of steam in Indonesia, Austria, the Czech Republic, Germany, Luxembourg, South Africa and India - than Ireland.

4. In commercial terms, as the IRM Brigade will, I am sure, agree - a very tiny proportion of an already tiny market.

In an ideal world, a Donegal Class 5A 2.6.4T would win hands-down as a RTR model for 12mm gauge - but how many would pay perhaps €300 / €350 a pop, and buy three? Nothing remotely close to any sort of viable market.

We are all aware of the two steam lists - (a) our personal "wish lists", and (b) what we know would be the most popular, whether they were our own favourites or not. From a commercial point of view, that translates to "least unpopular". 

I think that the 00 Works model, with small batches of RTR, is the best way; a few collectors items like, say, a RTR "800" class, should become highly sought-after collector's items, if such a thing appeared - maybe a GN "S" class too, who knows. A UTA "Jeep" would be a winner, without doubt, in the north - if that place was a great deal bigger (or more densely populated with railway enthusiasts - but who in Cork or Limerick might buy one?

I am certain that a well-chosen, limited edition run of RTR steam is a good idea, and I don't want to yet again open a vast debate aboput which it should be, but manufacturers will tread warily and sensibly, i am sure.

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I think No 30’s BCDR livery was applied at York Road in the 60s. The loco had a lucky escape into preservation at all, at one point being hidden in Cookstown Junction shed by the UTA CME when the price of copper went up! She was recovered when the precious metals market was trading at less exalted levels.

Funnily enough the York Road painters got no 74 turned out perfectly in NCC colours!! 

In fairness, some early preservationists were so exuberant at having saved locos from scrap that ‘accurate’ liveries took less priority than they would today..

The Keighley and Worth Valley is now seen as the epitome of 50s LM region authenticity. Fifty years ago it was operated as the ‘Worth Valley’ railway with its own livery to match....-and the less said about the Caledonian Fairburn the better, although GN men might think it a WT improved !!!

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Edited by Galteemore
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34 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

I think No 30’s BCDR livery was applied at York Road in the 60s. The loco had a lucky escape into preservation at all, at one point being hidden in Cookstown Junction shed by the UTA CME when the price of copper went up! She was recovered when the precious metals market was trading at less exalted levels.

Funnily enough the York Road painters got no 74 turned out perfectly in NCC colours!! 

They did.

The late, great Harold Houston had a part in ensuring that BOTH 30 and 74 were preserved. jhbSenior and he were great friends, from when Senior worked on the NCC in the 1940s. Upon asking Harold one time, when he visited him after retirement in Whitehead, why 30 was that colour instead of the extremely dark green (the "green" equivalent of "navy" blue, I suppose), Harold's honest answer was "I don't know!"

The GNR tank in there is also correct, and some CDR items are in actual CDR paint.

The Dargan Saloon has been repainted; the colour is more than close enough though. I think it had been grey in its later CIE ownership, but I'd have to check.

The C & L locomotive is OK - the company had engines in two shades of green and also one in black when the GSR took over and dropped them all into a pint glass filled with grey paint!

The Derry shunter, No. 1, is still in its original paintwork, and I think the DNGR coach may also be.

The GNR railbus was repainted, as it was fully rebuilt; the paint scheme appears to be accurate enough - AND - it's in FULL working order! An interesting thing about this is that when it was restored in the mid 1990s, the then RPSI policy was to have accurate liveries on everything, and coaches 9 (K15) and 114 were painted also in GNR blue and cream. As treasurer, it fell to me to pay the bills; the supplier we used was Jamison & Green in Belfast. Long before things like RAL codes were ever heard of, this company had a man who was about to retire, and had mixed paints for the company all his life. This company hed previously supplied dark blue and cream paint to the GNR itself, and this oul boy had the mix in his head, and written down somewhere; both colours, plus UTA green, were STILL on their books. I passed this info on to UFTM, one of whose leading lights was also on the RPSI Council at the time, so we could be sure that this railbus got the right colour.

If anyone in the preservation world is reading this, it might be worth investigating (for future reference) if this company still hold these records. I believe the man who knew was called George something, but I digress....

The CDR "Phoenix" is repainted, and accurate apart from the lettering which should be pale yellow, not white.

The Donegal tank engine is a mess. What may well be original cab and side tank paint, but the boiler and dome painted black. While many looked like this in use, they were actually painted red!  Sadly, this has been perpetrated with another restored CDR tank up in Donegal - black dome is wrong. Looks like a pimple on its face...... Mind you, red is a most impractical colour for a working steam loco - GNR blue locos also ended up with black-looking domes, which were blue!

Enough - time for my tea. Relax, everyone; that's tonight's boring post done with........!

34 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

 

079C4DD7-D921-43DE-9D28-EEBB4A47016B.jpeg

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Just to show I'm not totally fixated, I actually like BOTH of those - even the blue tank engine. But I am also almost the only person on the planet who actually liked the 1980s "Desert Sand" Dublin bus livery, which has been described as the "vomit" livery by some..... (so what would I know, with taste like that!).

Edited by jhb171achill
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Tim Dunn on Twitter: "Prob one of the best-ever rail #AprilFools was when a  group, in collab with @SteamRailway mag, secretly part-painted the hallowed  GWR "City Of Truro" into BR black- at @

 City of Turo in black although not in any way realistic is still a beautiful livery [even if it was only painted on one side] at the end of the day the owner makes the decision what paint goes on his or hers engine.

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5 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

To go back to the original topic, about RTR steam engines.

As others mentioned, this conversation has sprung up here and there over the years, often morphing into "wish lists".

 

I think that the 00 Works model, with small batches of RTR, is the best way; a few collectors items like, say, a RTR "800" class, should become highly sought-after collector's items, if such a thing appeared - maybe a GN "S" class too, who knows. A UTA "Jeep" would be a winner, without doubt, in the north - if that place was a great deal bigger (or more densely populated with railway enthusiasts - but who in Cork or Limerick might buy one?

I am certain that a well-chosen, limited edition run of RTR steam is a good idea, and I don't want to yet again open a vast debate aboput which it should be, but manufacturers will tread warily and sensibly, i am sure.

 The thread originated around the feasibility of a Silver Fox style locomotive kit on a  rtr donor chassis rather than a rtr steam engine.

The main challenge facing a would be kit or rtr manufacturer of an Irish steam loco is the absence of readily available suitable generic rtr chassis like the old Tri-ang 0-6-0, L1 and B12 Chassis. 

It will be interesting to see whether OO Works will produce further Irish locos.  While the OO Works J15 at £290 appears expensive compared to prices paid for similar Bachmann and Hornby models OO Works batch production costs are a lot higher and sales volumes infinitesimal compared to the larger companies and the 100 or so J15s produced would not have made much of a return for a year spent designing manufacturing and assembling the locomotives.

OO Works appear to have sold approx. 100 each of the three Irish tender types and piggy-backed  the CBSCR locos on the larger sales of the Beattie 0330 Saddle Tank which was available in main line, Colonel Stephens and Industrial variations. 

Interesting next seasons loco the LSWR Adams Jubilee is starting at a higher price point of £315 in LSWR or SR green and £298 in SR unlined black.

I guess the questions boils down to the number of modellers would be prepared to pay £315+ for a rtr GNR S in Lined Blue or an NCC Castle in lined Crimson Lake livery or £300 for a large GSR 321 or 333 Class 4-4-0 in unlined GSR/CIE Grey or approx £100 less for a kit.

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Too be fair to Cultra the bottom photo of one of two surviving Portstewart Tramway locos is in the correct livery

 Top photo is of the other surviving NCC tram loco at Hull Museum in a livery closer to the LNER than the BNCR!

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7 hours ago, airfixfan said:

Too be fair to Cultra the bottom photo of one of two surviving Portstewart Tramway locos is in the correct livery

 Top photo is of the other surviving NCC tram loco at Hull Museum in a livery closer to the LNER than the BNCR!

Yes, I think I mentioned that somewhere - I wonder if Harold H had a hand in that too....

Regarding Mayner’s comments, agree entirely.

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Blanche is a bit of a mess and Columbkille is more accurate as both were stored under cover after closure behind locked doors. When Drumboe repairs are completed it will now receive correct CDR Red livery. Doing an article on CDR rolling stock using 1950s colour photos and wagon No 136 seems to have been repainted plus the Hornby style black paint applied

 There is a good photo of CDR wagons in colour from 1959 in my article on Strabane in the May issue of Backtrack that is just out now. Luckily CDR coach No 1 is in original paintwork.

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35 minutes ago, airfixfan said:There is a good photo of CDR wagons in colour from 1959 in my article on Strabane in the May issue of Backtrack that is just out now. Luckily CDR coach No 1 is in original paintwork.

Interesting - wasn’t sure about No.1.

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1 hour ago, airfixfan said:

Too be fair to Cultra the bottom photo of one of two surviving Portstewart Tramway locos is in the correct livery

 Top photo is of the other surviving NCC tram loco at Hull Museum in a livery closer to the LNER than the BNCR!

The ‘black’ one is in Hull and the livery has a real patina of age. Wouldn’t surprise me if it was last painted in the 20s.

As for the poster’s original question. A WT body to go on an LMS 2-6-4T chassis is probably the closest to a sweet spot. The Jeep shape is a subtle but distinctive one, and is not a simple conversion from any RTR body, so a printed version is attractive.

Almost any Irish layout set from 1970 on can justify one painted up as No 4. And an NI based layout set from 1950 on could have almost as many as you like! 

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15 minutes ago, seagoebox said:

And here is a picture of number 30 at York Road with fillers before the paint job!,  picture dated 27th June 1961

1388.jpg

Excellent. Colin Boocock’s ‘Irish Railway Album’ contains a shot taken around the same time, inside the works, of the repaint under way. 

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21 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

In an ideal world, a Donegal Class 5A 2.6.4T would win hands-down as a RTR model for 12mm gauge - but how many would pay perhaps €300 / €350 a pop, and buy three? Nothing remotely close to any sort of viable market.

........

I think that the 00 Works model, with small batches of RTR, is the best way; a few collectors items like, say, a RTR "800" class, should become highly sought-after collector's items, if such a thing appeared - maybe a GN "S" class too, who knows. A UTA "Jeep" would be a winner, without doubt, in the north - if that place was a great deal bigger (or more densely populated with railway enthusiasts - but who in Cork or Limerick might buy one?

I am certain that a well-chosen, limited edition run of RTR steam is a good idea, and I don't want to yet again open a vast debate aboput which it should be, but manufacturers will tread warily and sensibly, i am sure.

Four factors for a maker to consider:

-- Sometimes an offering, well-researched and well-planned, then well-advertised (possibly by free word-of-mouth), creates or expands marketplace demand by attracting new interest.  What changed in Ireland and the Irish diaspora between the advent of ready-to-run models in the UK, Continent, and U.S. during the 1950s and the advent of small-batch kit-makers in the 1970s-1980s, then Murphy Models, Irish Railway Models?  

-- Niche markets are only sustainable if potential buyers act upon their interests, or are able to act.  Good intentions but no purchases pave a road to somewhere.

-- High-quality RTR will attract new buyers, because time and skill are scarce for working-age buyers.  Quality and operability now can justifyt a premium price to overcome the obstacles of no time, inability to develop skills right now.

-- Models that allow a buyer to represent a "fleet" can encourage multiple "rolling" purchases by one buyer over time.  

I'd love to see an RTR Irish 3-foot narrow-gauge locomotive for a "fleet" -- either Tralee & Dingle Hunslet or Donegal.

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On 16/4/2021 at 2:10 PM, Galteemore said:

I suppose 100% of the 3’ NCC Portstewart Tramway loco stock survives ;). I do agree though - one of the huge LLSR tanks would be nice - as would one of the classic little NCC 2-4-2Ts.

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Apogies David got confused with the steam trams. Top one is Cultra In a light green livery that is wrong. The RPSI have made the same error with LPHC  No 3 despite LPHC No 1 being in original livery at Cultra

 See photo below of CDR rolling stock in correct colours at Stranane August 1959

16186803853363374674054798009766.jpg

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4 hours ago, NorthWallDocker said:

Four factors for a maker to consider:

-- Sometimes an offering, well-researched and well-planned, then well-advertised (possibly by free word-of-mouth), creates or expands marketplace demand by attracting new interest.  What changed in Ireland and the Irish diaspora between the advent of ready-to-run models in the UK, Continent, and U.S. during the 1950s and the advent of small-batch kit-makers in the 1970s-1980s, then Murphy Models, Irish Railway Models?  

-- Niche markets are only sustainable if potential buyers act upon their interests, or are able to act.  Good intentions but no purchases pave a road to somewhere.

-- High-quality RTR will attract new buyers, because time and skill are scarce for working-age buyers.  Quality and operability now can justifyt a premium price to overcome the obstacles of no time, inability to develop skills right now.

-- Models that allow a buyer to represent a "fleet" can encourage multiple "rolling" purchases by one buyer over time.  

I'd love to see an RTR Irish 3-foot narrow-gauge locomotive for a "fleet" -- either Tralee & Dingle Hunslet or Donegal.

There is potential for 3ft stuff.... i suppise 009 is what most people use to represent narrow gauge on there layouts?

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4 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Some small Irish 3’ stuff will work out ok on 009 track - other larger prototypes will not! The Lough Swilly mega-tanks for instance, really need to be on 12mm track. 

Well lough swilly has most of those decently big designs hence exclusive the L&LSR. I think the stuff on shapeways is 009 hence wanting to stick to the trend

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In my far-off 009 days, there was a Japanese manufacturer of brass kits called Jo Works.

I got a kit of a tank wagon which I was assured would run on 009 track. It did, but I suspect that the prototype was 3mm scale, as the Japs had some 3ft gauge lines. Looked too small among 4mm scale stuff running on 009 track, so I sold it......couldn't get the couplings to stay on it either.....

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M

3 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

There is potential for 3ft stuff.... i suppise 009 is what most people use to represent narrow gauge on there layouts?

I believe most modellers of Irish narrow gauge do O 21mm gauge or OOn3 / 12mm gauge.  https://groups.io/g/00n3modellers and https://groups.io/g/IrishThreeFoot

An Irish RTR narrow gauge locomotive in OOn3 would serve a noticeable range of available rolling stock kits.  The OO9 Society offers a Tralee & Dingle cattle van kit in the members' store and Dundas Models offers several TDLR kits in both OOn3 and OO9.  The comparable Nine Lines kits for County Donegal Railway Joint Commission vans in OOn3/OO9 are no longer being produced. 

Locomotive kits exist, but are hard to come by, and require much skill to build.  Backwoods Miniature kits -- including a CDR turntable at Killybegs -- are being reintroduced by N-Drive Productions (Neville Kent).  Branchlines has offered a TDLR Hunslet kit, Clogher Valley Railway coaches, and a few other Irish kits.  Worsley Works offers a wide range of scratch-aid components.  And a few 3-D printing designers currently offer locomotive bodies and rolling stock.  Richard Ellis-Hobbs offers nice OOn3 LBER coaches in his shop on Shapeways.  Model Engine Works offers well-developed Clogher Valley Railway steam locomotives and other Irish narrow gauge railcar kits, both for OOn3 and for OO9.

Comparable UK narrow gauge railway models are offered RTR in OO9 by Peco and Heljan, especially for the Lynton & Barnstaple Railway.  

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Not a million miles off a GSR/GSWR 301 class/D11 - in original form. Those Wainwright locos are things of real beauty and even those of us who prize the Irish 4-4-0 as the epitome of loco elegance must stop and pause! The big problem is the splasher design which doesn’t fit with much Irish practice. 

5B6D370C-BCCF-41D1-AB02-79A8BE725F0A.jpeg

Edited by Galteemore
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Speaking of pretty engines, Robinson's WL&WR 4-4-0s, which became D15 class were also an elegant design, albeit with only 6' drivers. Featured on the cover of HC Casserley's history, they sported crimson lake livery too and occasionally cross my mind as a loco for Belmullet - but then so do half a dozen others!

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7 hours ago, Irishswissernie said:

Had an email yesterday concerning the forthcoming Dapol SE&CR Class D. This version struck me particularly the grey livery. Would the model suit some modification to fit in with an Irish prototype?

https://railsofsheffield.com/products/39194/dapol-4s-027-005-oo-gauge-wainwright-d-class-secr-grey-scraped-beading-4-4-0-steam-locomotive-no-726

secr calss d.JPG

A neat looking thing, indeed, with a distinctly "Irish" look.

While the grey is too light for GSR, it gives an idea of what a GSR derivative would look like. 

I am not sure of the dimensions, but a cursory look makes me wonder if, given a bit of jiggery-pokery and a "two-foot rule", it might be possible to make it resemble a WLWR D15, a GSWR D2 or D3, or a MGWR D5, D6, or D7?

Apart from the splashers, actual length of loco would be the biggest of a number of issues with many of these.

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Sheer size of the drivers is also an issue - 6’8” !! Even bigger than an 800 class ....although to be quite honest I think stripping off the air pump, adding a smoke box door wheel, flying snail on the tender and lots of weathering, and she would look very passable indeed as a ‘generic’ Irish type 4-4-0. 

Edited by Galteemore
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36 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Sheer size of the drivers is also an issue - 6’8” !! Even bigger than an 800 class ....although to be quite honest I think stripping off the air pump, adding a smoke box door wheel, flying snail on the tender and lots of weathering, and she would look very passable indeed as a ‘generic’ Irish type 4-4-0. 

301s had 6'7, same as the 800s, so difference isn't that significant.

 

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Some of you may be aware of Graeme King, provides LNER resin body kits, modifications and details.

Well documented examples of what can be achieved here 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/10588-thompson-a11-from-a-gresley-a1/

https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2443

The main question for anyone who would even consider a similar job for the irish market would be..is there a market?

Lots of irish locos with common boilers, smokeboxes etc, especially when it comes to the GSR/CIE era and 'Inchicorisation' 

Next question is of course, donors, and I think this is the big stick. Lack of anything irish outside the Woolwiches and NCC types means both the whole niche hinges on conversions from British types, doable, but not a perfect science. Worth the money if some of the more common Irish steamers come around in RTR in the next decade or two? To what extent are people willing to pay, not only for a loco that could cost 100-150 euro plus the resin body or mod kit on top? If it gets into the price range of brass kits sounds increasingly like a waste of money for something that still won't be 'perfect'. 

Conversion kits for the Woolwiches could be a start, pretty much just replacing out the smokebox for an inchicore one? Flip side, N class isn't a great model, especially if you're unlucky enough to come across one with dreaded mazac rot...

I do think even looking ahead 20 years, there will be a lot of vaguer irish steamers that will be unlikely to ever get an RTR run.

Food for thought rather than anything serious.

Edited by GSR 800
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2 hours ago, airfixfan said:

For the record an A Class made it to to Derry at least once and to Omagh a few times before the Derry Road closed in 1965.

One also made it to Bangor in 1960... As to reaching Foyle Road station, I think they certainly made it to St. Johnston (which was a CIE station) several times with 'Hills of Donegal' excursions from Dublin. 

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