Tobin

10 hours ago, Westcorkrailway said:

Im aware that At least skeaf and drimoleagie survived. Clon junction has a replica one but to be fair there is probobly plenty more i dont know about

Signs for Skeaf and Edermine Ferry are saved together with an assortment of other signs like Waiting Room etc. I'm not sure where but I have seen a photo somewhere.

On 31/3/2020 at 12:49 PM, Edo said:

Bagnalstown to Palace East and Macmine to New Ross never got the Dual language ones either - english only.....not sure about New Ross - prob didnt as it was Goods only after 64.

Ps - Bagnalstown did as it remains part of the network.

Incorrect about the North Wexford line: Macmine Junction, Chapel, Rathgarogue, New Ross and Glenmore all received GSR bi-lingual signs.

I'm not sure about the Bagnalstown-Palace East line but Palace did only have DSER english only signs.

From my knowledge, most of the stations on the South Wexford line including Waterford retained their GSWR english only signs till updated with the white signs. Not Sure about Rosslare Strand, Harbour or Pier.

Kilrane retained its GSWR english only sign till closure.

Woodenbridge Junction possibly had english only till closure.

Tara Street and George's Quay was english only till updated till the white signs.

Arklow kept its DSER english only sign above the station exit well into the 80s (albeit painted black letters on white board)

Greystones and Delgany had a GSR bi-lingual sign also well into the 80s

Other stations to definitely receive GSR bi-lingual signs: Edermine Ferry, Enniscorthy, Ferns, Inch(Possibly, my memory is a blur), Avoca, Rathdrum, Rathnew, Wicklow, Greystones and Delgany, Bray. All stations on the Harcourt Line. Killiney and Ballybrack, Dalkey, Sandycove and Glasthule, Dun Laoghaire, Blackrock, Liffey Junction.

Not sure about terminal stations such as Harcourt Street, Amiens Street, Kingsbridge and Westland Row but Amiens Street did gave a GSR bi-lingual sign on the signal cabin.

On 14/3/2021 at 11:18 PM, jhb171achill said:

Hi Tobin

OK, a number of interesting questions there. For ease, I have edited out the points to be answered, as above, so in order:

1.  "Emerald Green" is indeed what Clements (Bob, not Jeremy) described it to me as, or grass green. The last time i spoke to bob, Midland loco liveries were one thing we did discuss at length. I asked him if it would have been a bit like the green on Isle of Man engines in the Ailsa era, late 1960s. he said it was distinctly darker than that, but not my much! Much discussion suggests that the green used by the British Great Central, or something very marginally darker, might be the best estimate. Bob told me he had a paint sample which he would give me, where he had been in Broadstone one day and found a tin of it, opened it, lifted a bit of stick, swirled it round in the paint, wrapped the stick in newspaper and brought it home. He told me I could have it - but two weeks later I got the unfortunate phone call that he had passed away, so I never got it.

2.  Regarding the blue locomotive livery, Bob Clements distinctly told ME that the lining was black and yellow! I think, but cannot be sure, that I heard GOLD and black somewhere else... Yet Michael and Jeremy quote Bob as having told them red and yellow. If someone of the stature of Bob had two separate memories - I can't be sure. It's hard to tell from black and white photos, though at least one I saw somewhere shows one very light colour which might be yellow or white, and one dark colour which could be red or black. Personally, I've tended to go with black and yellow, but no definitive proof appears to be to hand. As to what locos were repainted blue, it was indeed applied to the "A" class, but the "D-bogie" ("Achill Bogies"), or GSR D16 / 530 class saw a trace of it too - in 1900, No. 37 "Wolf Dog" was briefly painted thus as a "guinea pig". This engine was initially put to use on the Sligo line but proved hopelessly underpowered for it, and like its 5 sisters, ended up spending most of its time on the Achill branch. Despite it being noted early on that this livery did not wear well, and a fairly prompt repaint into green for "Wolf Dog", the Midland painted up a few main line engines. I cannot state that (other than "Wolf Dog") that nothing but the "A" class were blue, but it is known that they stopped painting locos blue after only a very short time, reverting to green. The 2.4.0s (G2) on the Clifden line and the 0.6.0s which followed (J18) certainly, as you infer, would not have qualified as priority, but if one "Achill Bogie" got the "blues", who can say? Bob C told me that at all times, green locos were in the vast, vast majority.

The blue shade may be seen on a scrap of paint on the end of one of Downpatrick's unrestored six-wheelers. It has been suggested that a more obvious idea is to examine the "Dargan Saloon" in the UFTM; however, this is a 1950s CIE repaint, and while probably close enough cannot be verified. To my eyes, the small original sample is, though, more than adequately similar to the Dargan Saloon, so if I was making a model in MGWR blue, I think it would be more than satisfactory to colour-match this vehicle.

Yes, I agree that Ernie's comments about blue at Clifden refers to the coaches. As far as goods engines in blue are concerned, I am aware that a very large amount of Ernie's research was from the MGWR's Traffic Minute books, which I extensively trawled in the past. He will have picked up, I guess, a reference to a goods loco being painted unlined blue. Clements' comments suggest it was the exception.

3.  Sorry, I know it's a bit of an essay by now; but bear with me! The pic of "Titanic" (a FINE beast!) is unfinished; I suggest that it's blue, but lining, lettering and crest have not  yet been applied. The postcard in a lime green colour, like almost all postcards, is not correct. I looked back at my notes of what bob Clements told me just now. he mentioned the green being put back "as before", but when I spoke with him he did not mention it being lighter. Having said that, it could be simply because i did not ask him! Several other sources suggest a slightly lighter shade, but not exactly a "light" green at all - maybe "grass" green instead of "emerald" green (Clements used both those terms). The green livery would also start disappearing in 1915, when just Inchicore was abandoning black lined in red for all-over grey, now Broadstone starts painting locos black; plain if goods, with red lining if mixed traffic / passenger! Bob Clements did say, though, that repaints into black did not take place at a fast rate, and at the time of the amalgamation many engines were still green - one as late as 1932 before the GSR sheep-dipped it grey.

4.  Regarding "Celtic" and the Royal train......yes, I would agree that the artist has used his famous "licence" with regard to the postcard; such things can never be taken as an accurate livery guide. The locomotive was almost certainly in the dark blue livery, and the carriages definitely were.

The "Royal" or "State" Saloon, later No. 346 with CIE, actually spent most of its life indoors. Long after what few carriages HAD been blue and white were repainted brown again, this vehicle retained the blue and white livery until it was eventually repainted in the Midland's post-1918 maroon livery shortly before the GSR took over.

If that postcard is taken from a photo, this will presumably show the coaches clearly in black and white. This will account for the fact that the postcard painter appears to have the brown upper panels looking a bit lighter then the lower ones; and he is presumably aware that at the time, MOST trains had green engines and brown carriages!

 

Thanks again for such a detailed answer! You should really write a book yourself with all this knowledge!

That has cleared a lot of my queries but I'm still very puzzled by the colour on "Titanic". I've attached the photo as I'm not sure if you've seen it or not but I just can't see this colour being the blue livery as you say. To me, the blue livery has always shown to be really dark in black+white photos, yet here 'Titanic' is seen freshly painted in this light colour.

Thanks once again.

On 27/3/2020 at 11:07 PM, jhb171achill said:

Liveries as follows.

Up to 1903: all locomotives, goods included - a shade of green barely darker than current Isle of Man, or not unlike the LNER in England. Frames brown, lined red, green parts of loco lined in black and white. On tenders, "M  G  \\  W  R"  (\\ denoting the MGWR crest). Lettering shaded gold. 

1903 - 1918: Same for most - but - they started painting SOME 4.4.0s and SOME carriages in a new blue livery in 1903. It did not wear well, and by 1908 or so they had reverted to the previous liveries described above. This new livery had its origin in the "Tourist Express" destined for Galway, for Clifden; locomotives were "royal blue". This appears to have a been a shade slightly darker than the blue on a British flag; if you visit the Model Railway Museum in Malahide you'll see it on one of the models of a 4.4.0. I believe that's actual paint. Lining was red and gold, though I once read it was black and white; I think the red and gold is correct. Carriages were the same blue on the ends and lower sides, with upper panels white or off-white; a most impractical colour for anything to be hauled by a steam engine.

Locomotives were green still, with blue ones reverting to green, but perhaps about 1915 (date unknown) they start painting them black, lined in red. After 1918 this became the standard livery for all non-passenger engines. However it is clear that a great many still retained the lined green well after the GSR takeover, as one "J18", "Luna", was recorded by Clements still in green into the early 1930s; in fact, she was the last Midland engine not to be sheep-dipped in grey paint.

I have some thoughts on the MGWR locomotive liveries based on numerous sources but they may not be correct. I would like to hear what you think.

The green livery is often described as Emerald Green with black and white lining by authors Ernie Shepherd, H.C.Casserly and Jeremy Clements/Michael McMahon, where Clements/McMahon describes it as a green similar to the Great Central Railway of England. 

The Royal Blue livery is mentioned by all three authors with different opinions of the lining being either red+yellow, black+white or black+yellow. Ernie Shepherd mentions his source was also Bob Clements, meaning red+yellow lining being most likely. Shepherd only talks about one class getting the Blue Livery, the 4-4-0 'A' Class, as evidently seen elsewhere in photos and art of 'Celtic'. Shepard also mentions the blue livery in a photo of a train at Clifden, but the engine is an older 2-4-0 'K' Class and I think he was referring to the train of coaches(which are obviously in the blue+white livery) whereas the locomotive may have been in standard green livery. Shepherd also mentions that goods engines at the time were in an unlined blue livery, no exact class mentioned but the 'B' Class goods engines was delivered at the same time the 'A' Class was delivered. So if this is true about this unlined blue for goods, its most likely the 'B' Class. 

Shepherd and Clements/McMahon then go on to say that in 1905/1906, the Royal Blue livery was reverted to green, albeit a lighter shade of green, described as Grass Green. Again no exact classes are specified but assuming its the 'A' Class and possibly 'B' Class. Not a lot of proof to back this up but there are two pieces of evidence. The first is a photo in Ernie Shepherds book on the MGWR, the caption doesn't describe the livery but the engine is 'Titanic' of the 'A' Class in original condition and shade of livery is a lot lighter than the standard green. The livery is fresh, unlined with no MGWR markings on the tender and the smokebox is also freshly painted in black. I would suggest this could be some sort of underlay coat before the final coat of paint but MGWR normally use white before applying the final coat of paint. The second evidence is from a post card showing a MGWR train in a light green livery: 

Now theres an issue here since the original black and white photo used for the post card is of 'Celtic' pulling the Royal Train in the Royal Blue Livery, so the artist has coloured in the photo incorrectly. However, maybe the artist was trying to reflect the colours used at the time of the post card production which may have taken place after the Blue livery was disposed of. I mean the Limited Mail was repainted brown afterwards, so the shade of green may be correct. It might also be worth saying that the photo had 'Celtic' very dark, nearly black and yet the artist has put in the effort to lighten the engine instead of going with the dark to create the Emerald green.

Anyway, those are my thoughts. 

7 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

It’s not always easy, Tobin. Prior to mid-50s, all grey. 1956-ish to 1963, most were covered in layers of filth, coal dust and rust to the extent you could barely tell in real life, never mind a photo, never mind a black and white photo!

Those repainted black room acquired the same layer of dirt. In these times CIE had dispensed with many cleaners, as the steam railway was not seen by young lads as a viable career choice.

I had a list (from Bob Clements) some years ago of what classes had at least some black members, but I’ve been unable to locate it. From memory, but not complete, some notable classes which included at least one black example were J18, C2, G2, 400 and “Woolwich”, though most of the latter two were green by the end. 

 

From my reserch, all three members of the C2 Class received a green livery, which as far as I can make out, they retained

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

I must be going senile - I had forgotten about the suburban tanks!
 

Yes, 1954 would indeed be grey. They got shiny, and darker looking in photographs, sometimes as a result of “cleaning” (in reality, re-arranging the dirt) with filthy oily rags...

The first clear instances of black are around 1956/7. Most stayed increasingly filthy grey until the end.

Thank you, I wouldn't have known that.

Would you know of any photo examples of black engines in b/w photos? just so I know what black paint looks like in b/w photos so I can recognise black engines in future.

12 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Wagon plate, still bearing GSR paint.

Unfortunately, full  records of the DSER wagon stock have not survived, so it may not be possibly to discern what sort of wagon it came off.

Don't repaint it - things like this hold their value a GREAT deal better if they have original paint on them.

The only other possibility might be a bridge plate but I doubt that.

Just curiosity - in your researches, did you come across any DSER locos which were painted green after 1946? Black livery didn't appear until the mid-50s, so anything in 1948 would indeed have been grey.

Clements and McMahon listed engines that were painted green in their book Locomotives of the GSR. The DSER engines they listed were 458, 459, 433, 439, 436, 455, 456, 457. From looking at photos I can confirm that these engines were painted green as you can see the lining, with the exception of 459, 439 and 457 as they were too difficult to tell due to the quality of the photos. 

460 was the only DSER 4-4-2T to not get a green coat but a photo from the IRRS flikr shows a photo of 460 in possibly black, dated 1954. Although it could just be a shiny coat of grey paint, its difficult to tell if black or grey in b/w photos.

On 27/12/2020 at 12:08 AM, jhb171achill said:

Tobin, I had a reasonable list many years ago. I was on the phone to the late Bob Clements and I asked him many questions, amongst which were a good few about liveries.

I hastily scribbled down things like a number of what Bob said was the only loco of some class to be black, or he might say about another class “oh, there a good few of that class...” (or none.)

Thus, the list was a good guide rather than a precise list, number by number.

I have since mislaid the list, but not before identifying several small errors, for example, he insisted that no narrow gauge engines were ever black, but it seems that 6T was in its last years on the C & L, and one of the Passage tanks was at the very least an almost-black shade of grey from about 1956/7.

What I’ve posted over the years is based partly on my recollections of what I was told by him, plus what I remember writing on that list, plus what two other individuals told me, who in their adolescent years had free reign to wander round Inchicore and Broadstone.

My list, though, I appear to have mislaid, and two extremely thorough searches of my “stuff” in the last few years (one a few months ago) have regrettably failed to produce it.

Was there anything in particular you had in mind?

Sorry for such a late response. I've a strong interest in the DSER so any DSER engines or engines that ran on the DSE line would be a great help.

I too have compiled a list from examining photos of DSER engines and made note of which engines retained cast numbers, received painted numbers and the green livery etc but trying to determine which engines were painted black is difficult with black and white photos.

From what I know, the only DSER engine to be painted black was 461 being in a colour photograph in '61 but a b/w photo shows that she might've been in black since '48 but it could also just be the glossiness of a fresh repaint of grey, same goes for 460 in '54 and 462 in '59. 

As for snails, 462 definitely had a snail in '54 and at some point swapped tenders with 461 between '56 and '60. 448, 444 and 445 never had snails. 443, 446 and 454, no idea.

On 8/12/2012 at 2:29 PM, jhb171achill said:

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 

In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 

In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

 

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc.

 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

 

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

 

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 

5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

 

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 

7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

 

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 

9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 

10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 

I hope this is of interest.

Any luck in finding a list of the engines painted in black during the '50s/'60s?