RKX

I certainly wouldn't want shelf sitters, as a producer (ifthe retailers want to sit on them, fair enough).And the costs up front must be massive, so a larger run is a big gamble. Seeing as whatever has been released, so far, has sold, maybe MM left some money on the table? Although, I wouldn't want to be paying much more for each model, personally. 

1 hour ago, murphaph said:

I'm not suggesting Leslie do this for EU sales of course but it's done a lot. Kits and stuff like that are easily declared "commercial sample" which means they cost the recipient nothing and are therefore vat and duty free. The lighter parcels barely get looked at by customs anyway.

I got this little envelope the other day from Switzerland and this is very common. If it had actually been checked by a customs officer there would be a green sticker on it. Small envelopes are rarely even looked at. The postal systems of the world would grind to a halt if stuff this size was properly inspected by customs:

I used to get spare parts, under warranty, that way. Nominal value of $1. It seems the customs here make up a figure now, to apply the vat to. 

The NI route is probably the best. Plenty of modellers up there who might lend a hand.

4 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

 

Wondering should I invest in a few to sell off at €400 a pop next summer... 

It looks like demand is far outweighing supply. The 071s hung around for a while, but the 121s are flying out. They certainly will increase in price, but €400 is some figure. Anybody know how many were actually produced, as it would be a good marker to how strong the hobby is, at present? 

2 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We design the models and then work with the factory to layout the moulds as efficiently as possible based on material needed and parts while the factory resolve any flow requirements using their software. We offer commissions if you need something produced. 

I might just take you up on that, BosKonay - if you can get in touch, I'd appreciate it (we can talk offline, and see what develops. IRM will have my email, being a customer). Thanks. 

On 7/6/2020 at 10:36 PM, Warbonnet said:

I know you're mad for the brake vans, but if you ever want to commission one we know a few men who can sort it out for a price!  I reckon commissioning a professional to make an SSM kit up for you would be hell of a lot cheaper though! 

Yes, VAT can sting like that and has to be paid there and then. Invariably the stuff arrives when a new quarter begins for us, every single time! 

Cheers!

Fran

Fran, semi-off topic - do you design the mould (plates) or the factory? Is the product design just provided and the factory take it from there? I need to get a plastic "box" made up, so the info would be helpful. Thanks. 

9 hours ago, BosKonay said:

We're already shipping customs data on all orders, so we don't foresee any change.

Store them in Dundalk and we can skip up to Newry to use Royal Mail. No need for customs forms around here. I'll make some pallet space for you. 

I remember getting a, what I imagine was a quite expensive, CIE set, back in the 70s, and had the screws out with a knife, within the hour (I probably wanted to see the "engine" inside the loco). So, a cheap, cheap set for kids is the way to go. Something like a Smokey Joe, with a couple of cheap wagons (usual Shell Oil, stuff, etc.). Something colourful, to catch their interest. Maybe a siding, aswell. 

1 minute ago, Georgeconna said:

I'l check that tomorrow, only have US Rates to hand right now, a 20ft is about 300 bucks cheaper than a 40ft from the US.

The rates I quoted were China (Dalian or Shenzhen) to Ireland. Wouldn't know the US rates from China, but do know when we ship from Mississippi to Ireland, we pay more for the train to the port, than the actual sea cost. 

4 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

know you're mad for the brake vans, but if you ever want to commission one we know a few men who can sort it out for a price!  

Ha. Yes, they hold a special place in my heart, from playing on them as a kid (when they were parked, ready for the breakers). I don't want 2,000 of them, though. I appreciate the offer, and maybe take you up on that someday soon. 

And vice versa, if you find shipping form China expensive. 

3 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

You make some points I agree with from experience. I think retooling an all new 141 would be a complete folly, as the current model is indeed excellent. You certainly wouldnt sell thousands of them to justify the tooling outlay. The 201 made sense as the drive and detail was a quantum leap over Lima. But, for every person happy with the new model, plenty are happy and run the old Lima one still and they just want to play trains. The jump forward with a 141 would be much, much shorter in my personal opinion. Why would you sell the current one to buy the new one? 99% wouldnt, and there are other locos to be made in the meantime which make more sense. 

Regarding detail, your opinion is valid of course, but plenty of people do want that those detail items. When we started this our ethos was to do super detailed quality items, as MM had set the benchmark and these were the models we wanted to create. You may disregard it as "unnecessary" but our ethos to to make accurate scale models (track width aside, nothing we can do about that) so if it's on the real one, it needs to be on our one too. It's not about vanity either, it's about value for money. As production runs are tiny for the Irish market, charging high prices for mediocre models does not offer good value for money. The models would've looked shabby next to existing MM products and customers would dismiss it as "not worth the money". It's about bang for buck. Could robustness be improved? Sure, and we are building that more into future lines, but the detail will remain. These are models, not toys, and that means detail. We want to push things forward, and the reason why Lima, Mainline, Hornby Dublo etc died was because they stood still. The hobby needs to progress, not stand still.

Suggestions are always welcome for new models, and we are working on several new tooling models for IRM which we have not announced yet. I am sure MM has stuff up his sleeve too. We will always be honest and say if something doesnt fly, and we have above. We get people really want something, but the needs to be fiscal reality added to the mix too. The market is also tiny and we have had plenty of comments from people saying "slow down, you're bringing too much out" and then on the other side "I want I want I want" We have to balance between the two to keep viable. There are spoil wagons, weedsprays, A Classes, 121s all coming in the next 6 months. That's on top of kegs, bubbles and plough vans and a ballast hopper run and God knows what MM has planned. Where does another new model fit in?

Finally, we have no desire to manage a crowdfunding initiative. They take up a huge amount of admin time which we just cant spare right now and we are a self financing company. If someone wishes to commission a model from us, we would gladly do that. We have performed this several times in the UK market and offered these services to JM Design when those ideas for two wagons were scoped out. There has been a very public utter catastrophe regarding crowdfunding in the UK that shows how wrong it can go. 

 

a) I really have my doubts tbh based on examples we have experienced and outlined and the lack of stock to run with them currently. You need two plough vans per train, but only one brake van.

b) You'd be looking at €60-70 a pop I reckon (rough estimate) but there are many variables. 

I really do not mean to drag the spirits down, but after 5 years at this we do have the voice of experience at this stage.

Cheers!

Fran

And a very sizable VAT bill when it lands! 

Thanks Fran, 

Yes, 2,000 is a sizeable number to shift. 

Just doing the number, and love to see how things fold together. Too busy in the day job to be your next competition, though. Best to alway stick to what you know.

Yes, the vat is sizeable, but gets refunded. Not bad if the container arrives close to the end of the vat quarter, but a killer if you have to wait almost four months. 

24 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

 "40ft box about €1,500". Try double that from East cost and Add on locals for clearance and Delivery. 

 

East Coast China? 

19 hours ago, Mayner said:

A crowdfunded the promoters are uncertain about the level of demand and a project does not proceed unless it achieves specific funding targets,  with pre-orders the manufacturer/commissioner is reasonably confident about the level of demand and has already decided to proceed with the project.

A crowdfunded model may be more expensive than a speculative model produced by a manufacturer/commissioner because of a smaller production run and the additional cost of the crowdfunding platform fees, the manufacturer/commissioner are highly unlikely to undertake the design and production of the model unless they can make a profit on the transaction.

The HO Auto Boxcar project is a good example of the likely uptake for a crowdfunded appeal for a small production run of a wagon or coach  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ho-40-single-sheathed-box-and-auto-cars-1929-70s#/updates/all.

 

The crowd funding example makes an excellent read - thanks both for sharing. 

Having said that, I think some of the figures are way out. I know this is US, but typically a 20ft container to Ireland costs €1,100 and 40ft box about €1,500 (as opposed to $5000 - maybe they were located in the middle of the US, and needed road haulage inland). 25% fees for credit card and spurious expenses is also very, very high imo, but that's the retailers problem. 

Taking his manufacturing costs as accurate (including tooling, CAD, assembly cost per unit), then a 2, 000 run of, say, a brake van, would cost around €40 per unit. By my rough calculations. 

Would you a) sell 2,000, and b) what could you reasonably sell them for? 

9 hours ago, Mayner said:

Crowdfunding is reasonably safe when its set up through an established crowdfunding platform like "Kickstarter" rather than the company that is selling the models.  Crowdfunding got a bad reputation in the UK when money raised by Crowdfunding was not ringfenced and apparently used to prop up an undercapitalised and  failing business.

If they believe there is sufficient demand for a particular model there is nothing to stop a member or members of this group setting up a crowdfunding appeal with the objective of raising €1.7m * to commission Murphy Models to do a re-run of the Bachmann B141/181 (10,000 locos @  €160 + 5% Crowdfunding platform fee based on Bachmann's min. production run.

On a less ambitious scale a crowdfunding appeal could be used to establish of there is sufficient demand for a high quality rtr CIE Buffet Car or BR Heating Van to run with Murphy Models Cravens

The appeal would need to raise approx  €250,000 based on 3000 coaches selling at approx €80 + fee

 

Bachman selling coaches at €80 includes Backman's profit margin, so I'd imagine a crowd funding exercise would have a lower price (if you could get someone with knowledge to take it on). Otherwise it'd be not much different to a Pre-order. Or am I reading it wrong?

27 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

No problem at all. It’s no secret (on the website) we did 250 packs over 3 variants with 2 per box, so 1500 models. Very, very small run in the grand scheme of things, hence the higher than usual RRP. This also benefited from using the cement bubble / ballast hopper chassis, so gives you an idea of costs involved. We do love a brake van, and the ploughs are a lovely model, but it just doesn’t add up at the moment. Still, if the market keeps growing, who knows!

Cheers!

Fran

Thanks for the  reply.  Yes, 1500 is a lot to shift. If you find any more ballast hoppers, when you're stock taking, I'll take a few ploughs off you.

20 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

They also never offered us a figure as low as 540 for a wagon. Again, a lot more than that, and as Stephen says above, recouping the figure over such a low production run makes it hugely expensive. You may get 540 per livery, but not production run.

As we learned with our plough vans such runs for niche vehicles are expensive and not really viable, so that’s why we rule the brake vans out. You don’t run rakes of them at the end of the day.

Cheers!

Fran

Indeed. They're  just on my personal wish list, but appreciate their not viable in the Irish market. If you don't mind me asking, what size was the plough van run? Give or take. 

14 minutes ago, Warbonnet said:

MOQ of 540? We’d love to meet them, as any factory (4 currently being used) is a lot more than that.

Cheers!

Fran

I met the guy a few years ago at the Canton Trade Fair, and kept their fa tory details. Before the lockdown I sent a general mail to see what the score was, but that MOQ was for wagons. I didn't ask about locos. 

I'd personally love to see a completed CIE 20T brake van released; you've stated in the past this is not on IRM radar. 540 min order might be viable, for a mid range model? 

39 minutes ago, enniscorthyman said:

When PM attended the Wexford club in February he did mention about a rerun of the 141/181,however he explained a new model would be required with rotating axel caps new lighting,grills etc,which would make it over 200quid and a minimum  run of 5000 if not more.

 

Are we getting a little spoilt now, and would there be existing interest in a run of an identical model (without those mods you mention), therefore keeping the price low, as the moulds exist? I missed out on the original run, so not too sure about the quality of the product, good or bad. 

As for the 200 quid, many are bidding on Ebay up and over 300, for Used, without these mods, suggesting interest is there. 

On 7/2/2020 at 4:10 PM, DiveController said:

I wouldn't have thought that it would be viable to do a full run several models in 4 liveries for the 141/181, 9000 models as Dave says. I thought when people referred to a rerun, they were talking about maybe one new unweathered number in each livery which might give you 2000 models which is a lot to sell. If modelers wanted more they could renumber or weather to their needs.

If the Chinese do not want to do less than 2k units in a run, that would potentially be problematic not just for a MM rerun but also so other niche models like JM designs may wish to do or some of the 1970s wagons such a magnesites or barytes ever seeing the light of day.

Does this mean that the Chinese are saturated with injecting enough plastic for the world that they're now able to dictate what's worth their while on a bigger scale and will this bring in another workforce to undercut the Chinese just as this work previously moved to China from Europe and the Americas?

EDIT: Forgot to say that then there is buyers expectations and comparisons being drawn with state of the art locos such as the upcoming A if the original tooling was used and available. Many would not want to have to fiddle with tiny switches or have to install aftermarket sugar cube speakers or remove the cab only for it not to fit back perfectly and expectations would lead to comparisons still being drawn between something designed recently and nearly 2 decades ago  

I spoke to a Chinese manufacturer some time back, and their MOQ was 540. Not sure of the quality from that manufacturer, and certainly 540 would not be viable if all the tooling had to be made, BUT if the existing moulds could be bought cheaply (even rented) then a short 141/181 run might just be viable. 

11 hours ago, DiveController said:

@RKX Technically, CIE having been formed in 1945 , all liveries of the 121 delivered in 1961 would be CIE. The original yellow and grey livery initially had a flying snail, no handrails, side vent on the body, tablet snatcher etc and this was placed in stages several year later by the Black n Tan livery some of which had handrails or none as they were gradually added. After 1972 the super train livery began to appear on the loco gradually as they were serviced/overhauled over the years following. Grey & yellow usually ran singly whereas (sometimes) BnT & superrtain would run in multiple with each other or 141s

Supertrain livery in consist with side handrails, side vent between the 129s over the bogies, body vents on the engines covers, hand rails, tablet snatchers still in place , original small marker lights (replaced in the 2000s with LEDS) window on the 'back' overlooking the bonnet side of the cab) still in existence

Photo Jeremy Chapter Flickr

 

BnT livery, no side handrails on B127 (yet) most other things per the loco above except this this has sand filler boxes on the 'rear' of the bonnet (nearest that coach) that were removed at various times (not on ST livery above) 

Brian Flannigan Flickr (1971)

 

122 in ST 1987 (just before IR livery introduced)

Neil Smith on Flickr 

 

That excellent information and clears a lot up for me. Thanks for taking the time to post in such detail, DiveController

11 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi RKX,

We are awaiting stock or images of decoration samples of these models before we can add pictures. If you outline what time frame you’re interested in I might be able to steer you in the right direction.

Cheers!

Fran

Thanks Fran, 

I'm interested in anything 80s, early 90s. You produce it, and I'll buy it.

Confusing (for me, at least) on which 121s to pre-order, as all the ads just show the CAD pic (apart from pics of the version with the IE livery - first three released). 

The CIE versions are what interest me, but would like to see pics of the super train and black and tans, to see exactly what suits. 

Any idea on when the ads might be updated with pics of the model on sale? 

Who has the tooling for the 141/181s? Murphy or Bachman? 

With injection moulding, the big cost is in the tooling. As that exists, and the desire for the product seems to be there, then you'd imagine a Clondike could be made in producing a couple of the most popular liveries.

Very interesting, and I'll look forward to that hitting the market. It's a must have. 

Always wondered about the procedure in designing these, and why more aren't on the market. Do you go out to an existing wagon and take measurements, or are there old blue prints somewhere? 

I bought five from IRM today. Getting worried now, after reading the last few posts.