Old Blarney

Old man staying out late and drinking too many Guinness?

Re: Silver Princess coach built by Budd Company.

Found this on RM WEB

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=32283

Postby robertcwp » Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:22 pm

This was discussed on my Yahoo Group a year ago. Here is one of my posting from November 2007:

"December 2007 'Backtrack' has a two-page article on the 'Silver Princess' including the photo of it still with its original body

panelling and doors, in crimson and cream, mentioned below. There are also two interior shots, one showing the bar area fitted after

its rebuild. A further external shot dated 29/6/56 shows the vehicle in maroon, having been repanelled and lost its middle door.

The narrative states that the vehicle was first tried between King's Cross and Edinburgh then fitted with 5'3" bogies and tried on Irish

railways for three months in 1948. It was then stored and later purchased by BR in 1955. BR used it as 'The Ulster Bar' on the

Euston-Heysham run. It is suggested that withdrawal took place in June 1966."

There is also a photo of the vehicle in June 1963 Modern Railways, showing it in maroon and minus the middle door. Photo dated April 15

1963 and vehicle running in 'The Shamrock'. The photo appears to show it with ETH.

More recently, there has also been a discussion on the LMSREG Yahoo Group.

Robert Carroll

Coaching Stock: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/BRcoachingstock/

Diesel Hydraulics: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/wrdhl/

Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/

My layout: viewtopic.php?p=20888#p20888

Did anyone ever hear of the Silver Princess?

Or, better still, does anyone know where it was trialled?

I read somewhere - it was only after this coach was returned from Ireland to the UK that it was painted in BR Red and Cream.

Were it to have been painted prior to it evaluation by CIE, I doubt the CIE Publicity Dept would have prepared their brochure showing the coach in Silver amidst green coaches!

John, I believe the coach was trialled between Cork and Dublin - read it somewhere. Think it was after "Googling" Budd Coach History??

Regarding the number of wagons owned by Rank, is there any record of their number/s in the files of the IRRS? I believe "Private Owner Wagons" were maintained by the railway companies! I can have this verified,if you wish me to do so?

There we have it. They were red prior to being grey! Mystery solved.

(Chassis red, grey or black, OB, can you recall?)

I'm sorry to report I cannot be definite in my answer, however, I believe my memory tells me the wagons were one colour, red (much faded) with white lettering. I do remember them being stored there for a number of years.

Dislike the use of the word "Think". Many years ago whilst serving an apprenticeship, I was asked by my Chairman, to count certain items whilst we prepared our "Stock-Take". Returning to his office, I was asked how many items of XXx do we hold? I replied "I think we have xxxx. His reply. "Laddie, I'm the person in this business who THINKS. You either know the answer to my question, or you do not know the answer. THINK is not an answer. Now go and count those items, return to my office with the correct answer. We have XXX in stock of-------."

So I dare not say, I think the colours were X or Y. I cannot remember them other than that faded red.

For a number of years there were Rank Wagons stored on the sidings outside Wicklow Station. If my memory serves me correctly my first sighting of these would have been around 1977/8. I believe they were painted red, much faded, and were lettered as per the photographs shown in earlier postings. At that time I was travelling around the railway system on Locomotives, these were the days when it was possible to arrange for foot-plate passes from both CIE and NIR. Those were the days?

"And no matter which way I hold the iPhone when taking photos, they always turn out upside down. Any thoughts on that? Should I stand my head when taking them?"

J,

You need to consumed a minimum of four pints of Guinness within an hour, then place the items to be photographed so they are reflected in a mirror. Stand on your head for thirty minutes to ensure there is a good mixture of blood and Guinness fumes in your head. When the "Black Stuff" has taken effect, and the image you are viewing is becoming blurred, then - and only then, press the shutter button on your photographic contraption. If this fails at the first attempt repeat the process. Continue until such time as you are convinced it has resolved your upside-down problem!

Might the problem be the way you have placed the pictures to be photographed so that they wrong way around, and there is nothing wrong with your new-fangled phone thing?

Personally I use a phone to hold conversations with other phone users. The telephone exchange lady here is most helpful. She will take the trouble to inform you as to whether, or not, the person you are wishing to contact is at home at the time you are calling. Should they be visiting at the time of your call she will often redirect you to that addresses' telephone. A most useful service.

Re you Camera, what about you getting a proper one? I find my "Box Brownie" is perfect for such tasks.

Wonderful memories of roads that are no longer available to us.

Thank you,

OB

I have often wondered how the Island of Ireland might have faired had it not been divided!

This discussion (Forum) has re-awakened my curiosity on this matter, especially on the railways of Ireland. So, suppose 1916 and 1922 never happened!

The country remained part of the Union. The private railways of England, Scotland and Wales were, as we know, formed into the Big Four in 1923; LMS, LNER, GREAT WESTERN AND The SOUTHERN RAILWAY.

What might have happened in Ireland? Could the Irish railways have remained independent of one and other? Would they too have been forced to amalgamated, and if so, what type of grouping?

British railway companies had vested interests in the railway of Ireland. The Midland of England owned the Belfast and Northern Counties Railway, the London and North Western owned the Dundalk Newry and Greenore, and held a major financial investment in the Dublin and South Eastern Railway. The Great Western Railway of England had interests in the Great Southern and Western Railway of Ireland and they jointly owned, and operated, the Fishguard & Rosslare Railways & Harbours Company.

Could it therefor have been possible that the railways of Ireland might have been formed into two companies; one operating all railways South of Dublin, the other having responsibility for all railways to the North of Dublin? Were this so, could it have been that The Great Western Railway might have had the responsibility for all railways south of Dublin, and the LMS for all railways north of Dublin?

Perhaps the railways of Ireland formed the fifth company? If not, and we move forward to 1948 and the formation of British Railways, might it have been the case, as in Scotland,(Scottish Region) that the railways of Ireland would have become the (Irish Region) of British Railways?

Had all of these thing happened - would there now be a greater amount of track mileage in Ireland, or a lesser amount, or the same?

Might the lines to Londonderry from both Dundalk and Portadown still flourish with passenger and goods traffic whilst the Belfast, Armagh, Monaghan, Cavan and Mullingar line could have become the preferred goods route to Dublin from Belfast with a double roads all the way from Portadown to Dublin via Armagh and Mullingar!

Would we have had 1960s Blue Grey, Class 47s on Inter-City Routes, Class 25 and 26 or even Class 20s all with 5ft 3in bogies.

And, what about Privatisation? Virgin (Ireland). The thought of such a name would, in itself have caused ructions!

No CIE, no Golden Brown and Black, no UTA or NIR.

Perhaps no railways at all?

Citizen,

Nice work Sir. Tis up to your usual standards. Remember, when you are doing your weathering to include your cattle. Dem cattle does be frightfully clean. Do your cattle not roll or **** bhoy?

Talking of Irish railway amalgamations - What if?

What about the thought that the GNR(I) and the DSER had succeeded in their discussions to amalgamate their railways prior to the formation of the GSR?

Had this proposal come to fruition there may not have been any Drumm Trains, on the other hand, the amalgamated concerns may have built additional railcars of the type used by the GNR on Dublin and Belfast suburban services; D,E,F and G. The additional railcars to serve the expanded Dublin Suburban Services.

Alternatively, might the GNR have considered electrifying the Dublin Suburban System from - Balbriggan and Howth to Bray or possibly Greystones and on to Harcourt Street? This being the case it is possible the Harcourt Street line would have remained open.

All sorts of possibilities spring to mind! T2's to Bray or even through trains from Balbriggan or Drogheda to Wexford!

Am I correct in saying there was a proposal that the GNR electrify their Suburban lines in both Belfast and Dublin?

Kirley,

Have a look at this link-

http://www.ehattons.com/89822/Oxford_Diecast_76SET38_Southdown_Centenary_Set_Leyland_Royal_Tiger_Weymann_Fanfare/StockDetail.aspx

The coach on the right hand side of this picture bears a strong resemblance to the CIE, U Class, Touring Coaches (Royal Tigers). The CIE coaches were modelled on this and had additional windows built into the roof sides. The colour used by CIE was Primrose Yellow and Grey. Each coach was named after a river and carried the Flying Snail emblem.

Google - CIE U Class Bus - The first image is the Coach and the second the bus version.

Old Blarney

Patrick,

If you want to have additional Fuel Wagons on your railway, you could add MEX to your stock list. In Ireland MEX was a separate company to Shell-Mex. It is owned by the McMullan family and trades today as MAXOL. Mex wagons were stabled at CIE and UTA depots throughout the country.

Old Blarney.

Here you,

Are you implying I'm verbose!!!

David

Dez,

Are you and I not meant to be working today? I'm watching your posts Bhoy.

David.

Helene,

May I answer on behalf of Leslie?

He's from the Northern part of the Island and has a very limited knowledge of the railway system in the South of Ireland.

Please refer to my post, Old Blarney for some information regarding CIÉ. Córas Iompair Éireann, or CIÉ, is a statutory corporation of the Republic of Ireland, answerable to the Irish Government and responsible for most public transport in the Republic of Ireland. (See Wikipedia). CIE was created in 1944, and came into being on the 1st, January, 1945. Formed from the amalgamation of The Dublin United Transport Company, (formerly Dublin United Tramways (1896) Ltd) and the Great Southern Railways, this new company controlled the majority of Bus, Rail and Road Haulage in Southern Ireland. The exception to this being, The Great Northern Railway of Ireland (GNR). Their geographical area of operation covered public transport in North Dublin where they operated the Buses, Trains and The Hill of Howth Tram until September,30th, 1958. On this date they too became part of CIÉ in The Republic of Ireland.

The GNR's property was divided equally as of this date between CIÉ, and the Ulster Transport Authority ( six counties of Northern Ireland.) The railway lines emanating out of Amiens Street Station were operated by the GNR as were the Country Bus Services, roughly drawn from a line in Dublin to Sligo.

I was just thinking... he might have noticed trains somewhat earlier if his father was a train driver, eg. If his dad took him with on shorter trips since he was about four or five (1968/69), he might have got his love for trains from there? Would he still have seen a steam loco or two at that time, or not at all?

He would not have seen any Service Steam Trains running in regular service in 1968/1969. CIE had withdrawn the last of their Steam Locomotives by 1963. Some steam trains continued to come South into Amiens Street from Belfast.

(Leslie please provide the date of the last steam train into Amiens Street).

The reason steam continued to come to Amiens Street was this; Upon the division of the Great Northern Railway, September, 30th 1959, the main line between Dublin and Belfast became a shared operation between CIE and the UTA. The UTA continued to use steam locomotives for some services to Dublin as they and CIE both ran The Enterprise Service, and still do so to this day. (The UTA became Northern Ireland Railways NIR in 1967).

Your character, and his Father, David, could have seen - Preserved Steam Locomotives - running on Irish Railways.

Practicalities: Would being a train driver be plausible in the context of my story? Yes, I believe it would be.

How much would a train driver have earned, eg? http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1969/si/60/made/en/print -

These pages will provide you with financial details. Please note the sums of money are quoted in Pre-Decimalisation and Euro sums.

One Irish pound = 20 Shillings

One Shilling = 12 Pence

One penny = 1d

Was it a very technically skilled job back then? Yes it was, and still is.

If not, what other job could he have done on the railway that would need high technical skill, and if such a job existed, would it not have paid too much? You have many choices-

Signalman, Locomotive Inspector, Shed Foreman, Station Master etc,

Useless information: They were poor, but they were a happy family in spite of. His father's motto was look on the bright side and do the right thing; the rest will take care of itself, which we all know is not always how it happens. David (the dad) tries his best to carry this motto forward, and thought that if he had enough money, he might be able to fix what was broken in his own childhood. He never realised how many other things would slip through the cracks if he didn't pay attention and spend enough time with his wife and son - the two people he loved most in this world.

Some more ideas? Lots of them but it is your book. Your character, David, could have gone on to work for Dr James Drumm, but this is yet another Railway Story.

I hope some of this information is of use to you.

Old Blarney

Ps -With apologies to my good and dear friend Leslie.

Helene,

The dad (Irish, grew up poor in inner-city Dublin in the 60s and 70s).

Depending upon your definition of "The Inner-city", and allowing some Artistic Licence, I suggest two possible locations each with Main-Line Stations. Amiens Street (Connelly Station) from 1966 and Kingsbridge Station (Heuston Station) from 1966; this was the year the original termini were renamed. A lad who lived in the inner-city would have been able to Mitch, (Bunk-off school) and walk to either of these railway locations with ease. From these station he would have observed main-line trains leaving and arriving.

Kingsbridge would still be referred to by this name in the mid sixties and into the mid seventies. From this station your character would have seen and heard Diesel Hauled Trains, Locomotives and first generation of Railcars arriving and departing to the South East, South and South West. Goods trains were marshalled for the Guinness Traffic prior to their transfer via the Phoenix Park Tunnel to the Railway Goods Yards adjacent to Dublin Port for forward transfer to all points throughout Ireland . This location also accommodated Amiens Street Station, from which trains departed to the North of Ireland; Belfast (The Enterprise). Local services to Dundalk, Drogheda, Donabate, Rush and Lusk as well as Howth. Suburban services to South Dublin; Dun Laoghaire, Dalkey, Bray and Greystones as well as the trains to Rosslaire.

An important point for your Novel, and one you may wish to consider! Your Hero, and how he departed Ireland for London? It is perfectly possible, that he, like many a poverty stricken Emigrant, departed from Dun Laoghaire having travelled there on "The Boat Train" from Westland Row Station (Pearce Station) after 1966. These memories are the ones we railway modellers remember with fondness. Of course we, the Older Generation, used the trains for travelling to and from our schools, to go on family holidays and visit our relations. All this was done with regularity as few of our parents owned motorcars in the fifties and sixties in Ireland.

He is a very successful plastic surgeon who has a celebrity practice running in London. The mum (English, grew up in and around London with a privileged background) is a successful artist, shut up in her studio most of the time.

Questions:

1 The dad looks back on his childhood in inner-city Dublin with nostalgia and he would like to share this with his five-year-old son, who prefers to spend time in his mother’s art studio. Does any of you or perhaps one of the clubs have a layout of Heuston Station and surrounds or any other layouts in Dublin itself as it used to be in the 60s/70s? LUAS included if it already existed then?

2 The dad is a perfectionist and I think he would build things from scratch. But I also believe he would have expensive collectors’ items, and if I understand correctly, collectors’ steam engines etc. are bought readymade from the manufacturer? Also, he is a plastic surgeon, and there is a danger of hand injury when building from scratch. Would he take the risk? In the context of the info above, what would he buy? What would he build? Would he buy some things and build others?

There was a famous Railway Modeller - Cyril Fry - a former employee of "The Great Southern Railway" who built many models of Trains, Trams and Buses. His collection was housed in the Fry Museum at Malahide Castle. Unfortunately this collection is now in storage. It may have been feasible that your wealth Surgeon could have befriended this Gentleman, and commissioned him to produce a Model Railway on his behalf!!

After Fry's death, and upon removal of his Models to Malahide Castle, a new Model Railway was constructed there by Tommy Tighe; a former employee of Coras Iompair Eireann, (CIE). CIE existed as a transport company from 1st January, 1945 to 1987. It then became a Holding Company responsible for it's subsidiary companies; Irish Rail, later to become Iarnrod Eireann, as well as Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann. Tommy was responsible for the Model Railway at Inchiecore Works. The model railway was used to educate railway personnel on railway procedures prior to them running the real thing.

Returning to the Fry Model Railway at Malahide Castle. Fry's rolling stock was deemed too fragile for use on the replacement railway built by Tighe at Malahide. Thus his models were housed in display cabinets. The rolling stock used on the railway was built by Tighe and it is this stock that is seen in the videos and photographs of "The Fry Museum at Malahide Castle.

My plea: I may know a lot about words and things relating to words, but of model trains I know nothing. I don’t understand the technical lingo going around the forum and on the internet in general. Hard as it may be to admit, I’m a silly woman digging into a hobby that seems to be pretty much a man thing. ** (I disagree. There are some very good Female modellers who enjoy our hobby, thus your Surgeon's Wife, could be woven into your story as someone who participates in the construction of his Model Railway. As she is an Artist, perhaps, her Art and skills could contribute to the design and Scenic construction of the railway.) ** I don’t know if that’s the case everywhere in the world, but it seems true here in Ireland.

Please bear this in mind when providing information.

And thank you, in advance, for your patience in reading this long story so start with.

Helene

Should you wish to contact me please send me a Private Message -

Fry Information - available from This Forum.

Also - http://www.virtualvisittours.com/fry-model-railway/

Old Blarney.

Kirley,

Thank you for your directions and the PM

D.

Dez,

Thank you. I'll have a look.

D.

Kirley,

Congratulations on your wonderful Model Railway.

May I ask where you sourced the seats for your Railcar Sets from? I too have the Worsley Kits for the railcars and intermediate coach. These are being built for me - I'm afraid I do not have the necessary skills to build them to the required high standard that they deserve. Would it also be possible for you to post some close-up photographs of the front of the railcars please. This is to help us with the curvature on these sets at the sides and the fronts.

Happy modelling,

Thank you,

Old Blarney.

"There are no current plans to restore service to P10, the lack of crossovers means that trains coming from Kildare heading to Connolly cannot serve P10. They can only do it when going in the other direction"

"A second platform opposite Platform 10 would open up Heuston & the Phoenix Park and apartments and businesses in the Island Bridge area as a destination.

Terminating Northern Line outer suburban services at Connolly would improve line capacity over the Loop Line Bridge."

Why is it that IE is failing to incorporate these alterations in there current upgrade plan for the Kildare to Grand canal Dock service? Perhaps questions need to be asked and sound answers sought from Irish Rail on this matter.

With the planned reinstatement, yes reinstatement of a regular Passenger Trains service through the Phoenix Park Tunnel, will this also mean Platform 10 is also brought back into use by these trains? Drumcondra, Connelly, Tara Street, Pearse and Grand Canal Dock Stations are all mentioned but not, Platform 10. To me it would make sense that trains also call here, despite the distance of this platform from the main concourse at Heuston Station. The connecting bus service could terminate at Platform 10.

jhb171achill,

Perhaps we have the embryo of an idea here!

Many members of the RPSI are former, or current employees of CIE-IR-IE. When the closure of the Waterford to Rosslare Strand section of track was announced, I had a conversation with a former senior member of CIE-IR. We discussed the possibility of reviving a service on that section of railway and to New Ross from Waterford. The train Services Depot was to be based at - Wellington Bridge. Train routes - Wellington Bridge - Waterford. Waterford and West, Possibly including Kilkenny) Waterford and New Ross. Trains then return to Waterford. The proposed rolling stock - 121 and Push-Pull Coaches.

Perhaps in 2015 the withdrawn 2700 Railcars would be an alternative as the former are no longer available. We Oldies could be the volunteers on a regular, committed and planned availability. The expertise is available.

I use this as an example of what may be possible provided there is a willingness to make something happen.

Hi Gang,

For those of us who harbour a Model Railway, in or around our home. Have a look at this link! We can inform our "Other halves" - Model Railways are an asset - look at this! - If you allow me to spend more money on my railway, you will be wealthy when I die.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545351/See-astounding-3-5-million-home-scale-model-railway-ride-bridges-tunnels-round-19-acre-estate.html

Happy modelling.

Enterprise Model Railways Belfast. May I wish you all the best for your future.

GSR 800,

The Dublin-Cork-Dublin section of the 1949 timetable (3rd October, until further notice) has been scanned and sent to another member of this forum. It will be forwarded to you, possibly as a private message, but may appear here.

I was unable to manage the wonders of this electronic age and how it can transfer my images to this forum. I hope it reaches you safely, and is useful to you/

Regards,

Old Blarney.