jhb171achill

Excellent stuff, folks, thanks!

Always thought the 50s were elegant looking beasts. I remember reading about them being built new; an earlier summer holiday in Brexitland having been before they were built, and memories of what I think were green 47s hauling maroon coaches.

I wonder what a BR blue one might look like amongst 141s or J15 steam engines on a layout set in west Kerry, a decade before the 50s were built.............  well, Rule 1.

And all of this reminds me, courtesy of Senior;

Ladies & Gentlemen; a query.

For many years, the Waterford & Tramore line had an elderly ex-MGWR four-wheeled luggage van, which they used to carry prams and larger luggage on the W & T, as from early GSR days the carriages where possible had extra seats crammed in, leaving little room for such things. When the railcars took over in the early 1950s, even they had bus seats.

This van was retained until the end, being hauled by railcars and push-shunted at each end by the crew.

Does anyone know of the whereabouts of any decent pictures of this thing? I have seen pics, but not really good ones to show it in detail.

49 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

The issue of course is not simply the cash. It’s replicating 10s of thousands of hours volunteer labour, not to mention sourcing obsolete parts. These last two can’t be fixed by a bank transfer.

Very very true. That bit on its own is soul-destroying. Obsolete parts, more often than not, have to be manufactured, carved or cast from scratch. Even that can involve very intyricate and time-consuming making up of templates, drawings, patterns, etc, beforehand.

5 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

So, is €3 Million the final estimate or is the tally still rising?

It would be wonderful if there was some way of boosting income, even temporarily.

What is the situation with the waterlogged ground? Is the ground itself drying out or is it still largely saturated?

Ever since the 1860s this area has been very flood-prone. From the day the railway opened into Downpatrick, the BCDR had bother with flooding in the area. Once a generation there's a really bad one, like recently. The DCDR, like the BCDR before it, has experienced pretty bad floods here before but the recent one was exceptionally serious. Given that the ITG has their operation base here too, it hit the ITG also.

32 minutes ago, Noel said:

At least the missing video is right way up Jonathan.     

That's because I stand on my head when I'm takin 'em.............

5 hours ago, Gabhal Luimnigh said:

Video ain't working boss 

I seem to be better sticking with still images - a number of vids I’ve posted lately won’t work….

.........................................

Naturally, the day would not be complete without steam, as 383 stretches its legs after a visit to Inchicore...........

Always enjoyed watching 141s shunting.......  OOPS! A Dingle engine shunting too, in Castlegregory two weeks before the line closed 1939.

........................

As 146 shunts oil tankers, an 071 passes by with a Mk 2 set with "Dutch" EGV.

51 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

Portadown had subways, but Robert's bridge looks very nice and is very tempting!

We just need a GNR pattern footbridge now, Leslie, as well as a GSWR one!

I'll be looking for one of these yokes myself - possibly two...........

Oooooooh boy! Looking forward to seeing THIS finished.

(I understand that Galteemore is building a live steam 12" = 1ft scale "Lissadell" to run with it.......................)

Just now, DERAILED said:

Malranny was indeed examined in the early nineties but considered too remote and we mistakenly settled on the other place. At the time the station and GS hotel at Mulrany were on the market with 80 acres for IR£120,000 - how times have changed!

And in addition to your good self, Derailed, another party quite separately looked at this site! But like so much in railway preservations, the "ideas man" must eventually play second fiddle to the "practicality / reality man"! Mulrany would have been amazing - especially to me - but was a non-runner for a whole range of reasons, even with considerable private funding behind it, had that been available.

15 hours ago, 226 Abhann na Suire said:

All very interesting and very melancholy points mentioned above about what could have been of Ireland’s preserved railways scene. It’s such a shame about the lack of funding and interest for the existing projects across the country and that this leaves little to no room for new projects.

However I notice nobody has mentioned Maam Cross yet… is there a reason for that? Seems like a very sensible, ambitious, but not overly so, and level-headed-run project, and I wish it only the very very best in the future, I only just hope that it gains the traction and support it deserves and continues to grow!

Schemes like that can have a precarious long-term prospect. There are several existing (operational) examples of this species; a privately-owned operation funded by one individual with very deep pockets, but no preservation society as such to take it over when they age, like all of us. We see what’s happening at Moyasta; a well-meaning individual now getting on in years, close to being no longer able to run it. 

The other issue with places like Moyasta, Maam Cross, Finntown and the like is that they are in the absolute back end of nowhere. There is zero financially self-supporting market, and few or no local volunteers. Finntown exists due to being funded by a local co-operative. The others mentioned are the private property of one person, and thus dependent upon their personal funds and circumstances - and health!

While I am open to correction on this, it is my understanding that the owners of several of the privately owned ones - two at least - are (perhaps unwisely) completely opposed to having a preservation society set up to administer and run the thing.

In terms of my own earlier comments, I was sticking to those which got up and running, and do so; and also a few “might have beens”. 

Just thought of another; in the 1990s again, I was told of a plan (which, for numerous reasons was utterly impractical) to restore about a mile of the Achill line near Mulrany!

On 17/2/2024 at 11:41 AM, Metrovik said:

So, having read all this, I'm guessing I should preorder a pack for my little 50s Branchline?

Very much so, and in the 60s they’re quite new, so clean and shiny too! Go for the ones with grey chassis - the brown chassis didn’t appear until well into the 1980s era. As Cathal says, in your chose era they’re mixed in with ordinary wooden opens, with perhaps a third of the open wagon fleet bring the new ones, the rest various types of wooden ones, mostly standard GSR but a handful of GSWR & MGWR examples too.

On 16/2/2024 at 10:17 PM, Patrick Davey said:

On July 4th 1945, a visit was made to Brookhall Mill by a special publicity unit of the US Army, supposedly to acknowledge the role the mill played in the war effort.  The exact nature of this role has never been fully revealed and repeated attempts by historians to access closed government files have been thwarted.  There must be a story there somewhere......

Yes. I have the files in my attic. I'm negotiating with the Irish Times, but they need to seriously up their offer. I can only reveal, at this stage, that the President was planning to have a bit of a party at the White House to celebrate the fact that a seventh cousin of his once met an African man in Missouri who had been to Fenit on a timber ship one time, and having set foot on the pier, was Irish. Thus, by association, the President was too. That's what he wanted new table cloths for.

I remain tight-lipped about the President's daughter visiting Mr Weaver, and that locked-up chalet near the beach in Clogherhead. I do not believe that the signalman on duty at the time was.....  Ah. I won't say any more.

7 minutes ago, David Holman said:

It is a sombre fact that when state pension from the age of 65 was first introduced, the life expectancy of the average working man was just 48...

 Now 'they' complain that we are living too long and the older generation are a burden on society! An answer to that is in the wonderful book 'This Thing of Darkness' - the story of Captain Robert Fitzroy's voyage with Darwin on the Beagle. When they reached the tip of South America, they noticed that there were no older folk among the local tribes people. When asked if they moved North to avoid the cold winters, the reply was they weren't there because they ate them!

I'd better start eating unpleasant things so that I won't taste nice.......  so it's snails, garlic, germolene and strawberry jam for supper, with a sauce of over-ripe raspberries, out-of-date rashers, onion gravy (stale) and tapioca. 

11 minutes ago, DERAILED said:

Over the years I have put numerous proposals to politicians of all colours, and others, on the need for a National Transport Museum and I might as well have been talking to the wall. I have nothing further to say on the matter but as the saying goes, a picture paints a thousand words and this recent photo of the 'preserved ' MV Naomh Éanna (CIE's Aran Island Ferry) says it all.

https://www.facebook.com/MVNaomhEanna

Yup - says it in a nutshell. Now, if that thing had been used in 1916 in Kerry, or in 1690 in the north, it would be preserved. Not otherwise. (I wonder if I could get those letters off...)

5 minutes ago, Horsetan said:

They might only have lasted up until the 1990s before being withdrawn, just as the As and Cs were at that time.

Indeed - which begs the question what then - more 201s, probably.............. which would simply mean that today that whole fleet would be in use, and Ireland would have but a solitary class of locomotive. Things are unvaried enough as it is!, so thank gawd for 071s (never thought I'd say that about modern locos...!)

On 14/2/2024 at 1:46 PM, BSGSV said:

That's a new one on me, but of a piece with other schemes that seem to have been floated in the mid-1970's. Aside from Blue Pullmans, CIE looked at re-engining the Sulzers, and I was also told by someone who would know that they looked at buying redundant Westerns from BR. I'm sure the new 071's they did go for would have seemed quite pricy given the times, but haven't they got their money's worth out of them since!

Yes, the one about re-engineing the B101s was very much true. As you say, they got superb use out of the 071s - but imagine if 071-type engines had gone into the Sulzers - would they still be seen in Ballina at the front of a train of containers?

1 hour ago, Sean said:

 

 

What'er'u Sayin?

 

A Jen You Wine MGWR 0.3.7 tank engine!

37 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Intriguingly, one father figure  of British preservation, LTC Rolt, felt that even GB was ill supplied with Peglers, Holcrofts and Boyds….he opined in the early 50s that the Festiniog project would founder -‘there is only room for one preserved railway in Britain’……and the demographic you mention, small though it is in this country, is certainly highly prominent in the history of Irish preservation…..

True, but what we have now is likely to be the limit. We've done well for our size, and our very limited level of interest but we're still much, much smaller.

Just for info purposes, in case anyone's still awake - I'll outline a few of the "might-have-beens"; tis a slow, cold, rainy Saturday night, and I have not yet decided whether I'm prepared to go down the road tonight for a pint. So; as far as I remember, and having been involved in feasibility studies (promoted by other people, not me!)....

1.  Tullow.

Two wealthy businessmen (so they said) approached the RPSI in the early 1990s. Their question: "Have you any old trains for sale?".  (Yes, I know, I know, but better is to come, dear reader, and they never even mentioned the brits building anything to control us, or lines closed in the 1950s being sold for scrap to make bombs to drop on Germany.....!)  Their rationale: they and their families had been on holiday in Britain and had taken a trip on one of the busier steam railways there, and on a bank holiday. I think it was the Severn Valley, but it doesn't matter. They noted six and seven coach trains jammed to the doors with people, and worked out that the fares paid per mile were very much higher than CIE charged. "Must make an absolute fortune!" they concluded. I exchanged several phone calls and correspondence with them, and we worked out that IF they had the bottomless pockets they claimed to have, and IF they owned the four miles of the trackbed of the line that they said they did, the RPSI could lease the two J15s to them.  In theory. As always in railway preservation, theory and practice are not just on different planets - they are in different galaxies. When the realities of the care and maintenance of steam locos was made clear to them, along with the regulatory necesseties of boiler care and insurance, track maintenance and the like, they ran away scared. We had not yet discussed marketing, public access, sight lines for access roads, suitable access for low loaders bringing rolling stock, and financial sustainability, let alone commented on the fact that half a million tourists just will NOT ever descend on Tullow per year solely to travel four miles behind a J15 with two coaches. However, in an imaginary world, we now have a four mile line from the (then still existing) fully restored Tullow station, complete with original overall roof! Hell, why not throw in a new-build GSWR 4.4.0.....  It would, of course, look great!

2. Belcoo.

This was born of cross-border "Peace Money", along with IFI & ERDF funding. Had it come to pass, and it very nearly did - it would have consisted on a mile and a half of the SLNCR (stop that drooling, Galteemore, that's yer last wanring). This would have run from Belcoo station, across the road and down through fields to the MacNean bridge, which was (and is) in two bits in the water following being blown up by the British Army during the troubles in case those with issues about their presence in the area (which, to be fair, was the majority locally!) might use it to escape their attentions when moving things that might go "bang" about during nocturnal hours. And the funding was THERE! Yes, a first time for everything.

Unfortunately, this dropped dead in the water due to a discrepancy of opinion amongst two leading local landowners, each of whom took the view that if the other one was in favour, well I'm aginst it. Had it come to pass, it was to be done on a low-cost, low key basis. With approval from IE, the Sligo railcar was to go to Brexitland to be refurbed and fitted with an almost new Gardner engine similar to the Donegal railcars. This was long before there was any talk of that vehicle going to Downpatrick; it was then languishing in Mallow, to which certain scrap merchants had, eh, travelled in order to relieve it of anything valuable, but thus enabling rain to get in and rust parts of it from the inside out. (At least it has survived). Permission WAS obtained for that, and Fermanagh Council agreed to part-fund it. Next, the RPSI would be approached with a view to having "Lough Erne" as a static exhibit there, and the NCC Railcar No. 1 also given a refurb and an identical Gardner engine. Ulsterbus was prepared to provide sheet metal and upholstery. The line would operate from Belcoo down to the lake shore - an excellent scheme. The terminus, like inch Abbey, would be a platform with short run round. No frills, but perfect for a location like that. No nonsensical, emotion-driven notions of new-builds hauling Enterprise-sized trains, to which every tourist on the island would surely want to do rather than go to the Giant's Causeway, Trinity College or the Cliffs of Moher. A "G" class, the Whitehead MGWR six-wheeler, again restored, and a brake van - all of which were available - would complete the entire stock. No endless sidings full of unsightly scrap - there was no room for anything like that anyway. An old carriage chassis - laminate, I think it was, with a flat floor on it, would serve as a loco-pushed "work wagon", similar to that at Downpatrick back in the day. By the time there was some sort of light of day where the two local landowners MIGHT agree, the funding pots were dried up, never to be repeated again on such generous terms.

Personally, the above would have been my favourite.

3. Athboy.

Another one I liked, and invested much research in. A study group was established; a founder member of IRM was one of the gang; in which the issue of a DCDR-style heritage railway within maybe an hour's drive of Dublin was contemplated. The purpose of the group was to extensively research what was possible, what suitable funding sources might be there, and what engineering and other issues might have to be addressed.

In an initial meeting, and following some groundwork by several members, some eighteen possible sites were identified. Any with level crossings or access issues, either for the general public or bringing rolling stock in, were obviously eliminated straight away once those issues became known. From memory, there were two separate sites on the old Tullow branch looked at, a complete green-field site in Co. Wexford, where a new line could run along the river bank for two miles near Bunclody; a stretch near Carlingford, and a possible bit of the Kingscourt line were all looked at. Within one and a half meetings, we were left with two possibilities. For one reason or another all of the others were eliminated completely (as opposed to being considered less desirable). The two were Ballinglen - near Tinahely on the Shillelagh branch, now a rough greenway type of footpath; and Trim to Athboy.

Both Trim and Athboy stations were long gone, but road access was fine, both are tourist towns, near a motorway, etc etc. So what would it have looked like?

One end would have been fairly rudimentary, a la Inch Abbey. The other, probably the Athboy end, would be a new-build small station with the appearance of a small Dublin & Meath station. Rolling stock would be - with the initial agreement of the ITG - three "G" class; one on loan from Downpatrick, and two from Carrick-on-Suir. All three would be sent to Germany, where these things were still being built NEW at the time, or had been in the very recent past, and refurbed over there into as-delivered condition. Several laminates would be obtained, possibly heated in the same way the Loughrea coach was. Again, the Whitehead six-wheeler, a basic couple of ballast hoppers, work bogie and guard's van, and nothing else. Space would be available in a museum for displaying an RPSI or Cultra steam loco which was not in use.

What went wrong with THAT one was that one landowner owned well over half of the route, which was straight and entirely clear, just through fields. That landowner was having none of it.

The study group presented its findings to the local authorities / councillors at each end of the line. On a scale of 1-100, the interest level shown was 0.

So there's a few might have beens to discuss over pints tonight, wherever you'll be!

6 minutes ago, minister_for_hardship said:

Just for comparison, an industrial theme attraction in the same region (Belfast) about some ship that came a cropper netted some 624,000 odd visitors in 2022, pre Plague they had a high of nearly 837,000 coming through their doors in 2018!

Indeed - I omitted to point out that due to its industrial history, the greater Belfast area will have the lion's share of anything "industrial" in Ireland, and that biggish-sized boat accounts for the bulk of THAT; despite thw proximity of Whitehead to what is actually the most intensively "industrial" area on this island, it still doesn't get more than a trickle. Imagine how many Whitehead would get if it was situated in North Mayo or West Cork!

14 hours ago, DiveController said:

Would be handy to have one for mainline and secondery route NIR stock also

Indeed - I am sure that will follow!

59 minutes ago, leslie10646 said:

One of the questionable benefits of being a grumpy old 77 year old, is that by now, you've been there, bought the teeshirt and worn it out.

Jonathan is right, there isn't the money, nor the potential support for another railway museum.

I assume from his chosen name that Newtoncork in the Cork area and I'm sorry that the two existing museums are so far from him. Cultra has been widely praised by British pals who've visited and is at least free to enter thanks to MY generosity (as a UK tax payer). Support it.

It's a pity that there are relatively few "Southern" exhibits, but that was an issue of time-line. Most of the interesting Southern kit, like the lovely 4-4-0s, 2-4-0s had gone long before Cultra was open. The price of early dieslisation.

He does mention being "professional" and I must say that I had a bit of a search to find out just what is in Cultra - it's not on their website - that could be better.

Support what's there and don't dissipate scarce resources. 

This raises an interesting point I referred to earlier. Firstly, our thanks to Leslie for paying his taxes on time!

Leslie mentions the fact that "southern" exhibits are (and were!) few. This amplifies perfectly what I mentioned earlier - that a suitably numerous body of folks on this island - in all corners of it - and whether elected representatives, public figures or just "normal" people - with a sufficient interest in such things simply doesn't exist, never did, and unless the world changes very dramatically indeed, never will. Local "culture" on this island in terms of memorials and visitor attractions that local authorities or private individuals are prepared to invest in are many, but railways simply don't register. We are not a nation of railway enthusiasts; most of us here, if we think about this, will realise that. So, old locomotives, carriages and stations were all just scrapped, and early (since CIE went diesel earlier than NI or Britain). Sure who wants them oul steam trains - scrap'em, good price for the scrap.

Whitehead had 8000 visitors last year. The NRM in York (not counting Shildon) had 570,000+. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has 200,000+. The vast majority of these by far visited the old houses and folk museum, NOT the railway part. So let's allow maybe 40,000, arguably generouusly, for the Transport gallery - and half or more of these go because of the road vehicles. It is not unrealistic, therefore, to assume that perhaps 15,000 specifically went to see railway exhibits.

Let's number-crunch. 38 times as many people go to the NRM than (probably) specifically the railway exhibits at Cultra. That statistic in itself, if accurate, is telling. However, look closer! There are not 38 times as many people in Britain as there are here - there are ten times as many. That means that VERY roughly speaking, for every railway enthusiast per 1000 people here, there are probably nearly 4 in Britain.

In the years when the RPSI's May Tour used to run (until Covid), the overwhelming majority of those on board were English. For several decades, especially before Santas became "a thing" it was this tour annually which ALONE kept the RPSI afloat. I did the seating plan for some years, and travelled on all but 3 of them from 1978 until they ended, and on none of them would the TOTAL Irish contingent (north and south combined) filled a single coach. I digress..............!

As our transatlantic friends in 'Murrika might say: "Go figure"!

Now; it's high time I took my smelling salts and pills, and set about booking online my proposed visits to the Isle of Man, Keithley, Embsay, the NYMR, Swanage and Welsh Highland Railways later this year..............  (good bars in York too, where they know how to piur guinness; but they don't have the beginnings of a clue on such important matters in Lestah....).....