Ironroad

42 minutes ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Oh my God, you're doing the B&I Ferry!!!

LOL, keep saying that DJ and it just might happen.

1 hour ago, BosKonay said:

Suffice it to say IRM have an extensive roadmap of new re runs and entirely newly tooled items over the coming years, some of which may even surprise  We are seeing a market growing strongly and our sales have more that tripled year on year. The future is bright for the hobby and Irish outline specifically. 

That's very encouraging and helpful.   Between them. starting with MM and more recently with IRM,  they have they have created a market where there really wasn't one previously and having done so assurances that the appetite for their products that has been created will be met is very important, thank you

PS so tell us more!!!

Hi DJ, I doubt we will go back to the days of orange and black Hymeks and I have no doubt that more RTR models of Irish locomotives will be produced in the future. 

I agree that In essence that a market for things Irish has been created by the production of items not previously produced but that is still a very niche and small market. Accordingly there will be long periods between offering from producers and that includes re-runs or entirely new models.  I may be completely wrong but we are probably at least five years away from any new offerings of items that have previously been marketed.   It takes time for the market to develop sufficient appetite to make it worthwhile for a producer.  

5 hours ago, murphaph said:

Does anyone @WRENNEIRE cough cough know when Hattons of Liverpool will be getting their allocations of IR units? I pre-ordered with them months and months ago and feel bad cancelling even though Brexit is drawing nearer and nearer and I don't much fancy my models spending weeks in a customs warehouse in January. If they don't have them soon I expect my shipment will not make it back out of the UK and over to me in Germany before the end of the year, what with Christmas and Covid slowing the post right down.

I'm in the same boat but not worried. If IRM only got their allocation on Friday so I'd expect it will take till this week for them to arrive in Liverpool. 

5 hours ago, WRENNEIRE said:

Still, time for IRM to get the 141's, 181's and 071's onto their roadmap, if Murphy Models are not in a position to re-run them over the next few years.

For the last time people, re runs are not going to happen unless you fancy paying €400+ for the privilege
The initial runs were produced with the minimum amount of models produced 504 of 12 different liveries which is just over 6000 models. So the moulds are still there and that cost can be subtracted from the next run but it would mean making 3500+ models which means 290+ of each livery.
So I reckon 100 of each livery might sell, what happens the rest?
 

5 hours ago, DJ Dangerous said:

I respectfully disagree.

The A class are not retailing at €400 each, and there are more than 100 units being produced.

The Irish market is growing, not contracting, and is not the same creature that it was ten years ago.

IRM have contributed massively to this growth, and are probably responsible for the large surge in sales of MM 071's this year, which are now all but unavailable.

I reckon that in two years time, or less, demand for an Irish loco other than the A will drive second-hand prices to even more insane levels if one is not announced or at least speculated about.

Hi DJ, the mathematics are not on your side of this debate.  A few people with deep pockets bidding against each other for a few no longer in production items on E Bay is not indicative of a market for a re run of these items.  As Wrenneire has pointed out the initial production runs were relatively small in the order of 6.000 items but that doesn't mean there were 6.000 customers,  at best the likelihood is there were probably less than 3.000 customers because those that did buy them probably brought multiples. For example I bought 9 x 201's, 8 x 071's, 7 x 141's & 7 x 181's.  Also consider how many people are serious enough to sign up on this forum, in the scheme of things it's a very small number. 

It's tempting to believe that because the tooling still exists that re runs are viable, but it is unlikely that there is a market for the the volumes needed to sell re-runs at the sort of price that would be affordable for most of us.  Whoever undertook such a venture would have to be content with holding unsold stock filtering off the shelves slowly over many years and there is no return on investment in that.

I'm more concerned with where we go from here. With the release of the A class next year all of the most ubiquitous diesel locomotives that ran on Irish rails from the late '50s to the present time will have been produced as RTR models and while that is quite amazing to me, I think there is a dilemma for IRM or any other producer as to where to go next. I say this because if my reading of comments on this forum generally are correct, there are sharp divisions as to preferences for period. That in itself further dilutes the market even more for any  possible future offerings.  If I were to hazard a guess we are more likely to see offerings of rolling stock rather than locomotive power because they sell in much greater multiples.  

11 minutes ago, Si2020 said:

Having worked in a Model shop and as you say and we were told the same thing by the VAT representative that any prices displayed in the shop or website are to include VAT but it hasn't got to be listed as a seprate price and the onus was on the customer to ask for the deduction if via mail order/phone/website if the destination was not in the VAT zone. If they where present and made a purchase in shop the price was to stay the same and the customer was to ask for VAT reclaim form at customs at the point of exit to claim the VAT cost back. Your not suppose to remove it at the shop.

Having said that the rules/procedures may have changed as that was 6 years ago before I set up my own buisness and luckly I'm not near having to think about payng VAT but that may change in the next few years

Basically correct, however I do not agree that a  retailer should put the onus on the foreign mail order customer to ask for the VAT reduction, that should be automatically granted based on the foreign address the goods are being dispatched to. (no argument about VAT liability if delivery is taken at the shop or the possibility of recouping this on exiting the state assuming the facility exists).  In fact a registered retailer should see this as a competitive advantage over an unregistered retailer.  But it does seem to me that the fact a great many sellers are not open about this is grounds for suspicion.  

5 hours ago, Si2020 said:

HI,

Ive removed a bit of your post so its just the relevent bit.

Just to correct you slightly its £85K as any income into the busniess before deductions.

Its also my understanding that by law you are not allowed to hide the fact that you are paying VAT and you have to display the VAT number on any recipets/invoices that show VAT.

Thanks

Simon

Thank you, as I said I hadn't checked the limit recently and was going on memory. And you are correct in stating traders are obliged to declare their VAT registration number on invoices but some may not be in compliance. The purpose of displaying the registration number is to give legitimacy to the charging of VAT particularly to other traders who are also registered and can recoup that VAT. However, by law the full VAT inclusive price must be advertised to consumers without necessarily showing a breakdown, and this opens the door to simply declaring a price with no reference to as to whether it contains VAT or not. Accordingly my suggestion is that before ordering from any entity that does not make the basis of their pricing clear, ask whether the price is VAT inclusive.

Take a look at the Olivia's Trains website, they are registered for VAT but are not exactly compliant with the concept of zero rating sales to non EU destinations.  

On 18/11/2020 at 2:58 PM, murphaph said:

Surely most model kits are made and consumed in the UK? The hobby is comparatively tiny in Ireland (unfortunately). I would expect little interruption for the modeller in the UK. Outside the UK it's another matter though. Brexit is really throwing a spanner in the works here. I met a chap in Potsdam on the weekend and he is a UK/Ireland outline layout builder and exhibitor (Ontrax quality). He's been stocking up on smaller bits and pieces as he expects the shutters to effectively come crashing down in January. It just won't be worth the hassle for many smaller UK based sellers.

As well as that it has kind of flown under the radar but the €22 threshold on VAT/duty is to be abolished EU wide from June next year. That means every single item no matter how cheap will go through customs and will have a handling fee slapped on it by your local postal service. The idea is to prevent the fraud which is certainly widespread (who hasn't received a $5 "gift" from China that really cost more like 50?) by simply making online purchases from outside the EU too much hassle/too expensive so EU traders can get the business instead. Unfortunately in our hobby there is little interest outside the UK so we will not see an EU dealer of Shawplan Lazerglaze or whatever niche kit maker's products you can think of. 

Agree, but I don't think it is all doom and gloom. I'm old enough to remember how things were before the customs union. Back then while both Ireland and the UK were in the EU, export sales to another EU country were zero rated for the purposes of VAT. So being pre internet, I used to make mail order purchases from Hattons. (instead of a weekly e-mail they used to send a monthly listing of their offerings probably produced with a typewriter stencil and a Gestetner duplicating machine). I never had the experience of having any of these parcels stopped and assessed for Irish VAT. I'll grant that the Revenue and PO are now much more sophisticated and it is unlikely mail imports would now escape the net. But keep in mind in the worst case scenario of no agreement between the EU and UK, the likelihood is that UK export sales will not be subject to UK sales tax but subject to sales tax in the country of importation in the EU.  One more or less offsets the other, the real additional cost being processing fees.

The real problem is with purchases from small producers who are not registered for VAT. There will be no reduction by the deduction of UK VAT because it isn't (or shouldn't) be in the price to begin with and so this price will be inflated by the application of VAT at the prevailing rate in the country of importation. Note that while I have not checked recently from memory the threshold at which businesses in the UK are required to registered for VAT is about GBP 75k annual sales and I suspect there are some smaller outfits who say they are not registered but actually are and they may need to rethink this if they are to retain export sales.   Regardless, as has been noted it will probably be prudent to consolidate purchases to the best extent possible to minimise import processing fees.

There is a new website, but I don't think there is anything in stock at present;

https://www.ecwid.com/store/store1493122/

Thank you all this has been quite informative. Summing up so far:-  live frogs are not necessary and using insulated frogs simplifies matters although there may be some risk (perhaps minimal) with short wheelbase locos. Thank you for the explanation of a "BUS", but from the depths of my memory I recollect something about care being required with the wire gauge, what should that be? Also appreciate the advise that reverse loops still need to be isolated, but to clarify does this mean a section of track within the loop (presumably sufficient to accommodate a full train?.  The advise on the  isolation of a programming track is also well noted. 

Beyond this  what are the preferred or recommended control systems. I'm way out of touch but remember that the initial offerings such as Zero 1 and the Airfix systems were not compatible with each other and at least in the US the National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) established uniform standards which I presume all manufacturers now adhere to.  But who are the preferred most popular producers and how do they compare, both on performance/features and price . I suspect there is a middle ground where the most expensive may not be full value for money and the least expensive while initially attractive may be a poor longer term choice.   And of course since I like reverse loops do all producers facilitate them?

Hi DJ, the point of my question is to clarify that if all track section are live at all times in DCC, that points which isolate sections are unnecessary and as part of the process of transitioning to DCC it is preferable to install points with live frogs and if indeed insulfrog points are already installed it would be necessary to wire a feed across these points.  Perhaps very basic but I'd like to be sure nothing is taken for granted.  

This is a great topic and since I'm at a crossroads on taking the plunge into DCC and completely ignorant of what I may be getting into, I'm very interested in all and any contributions.

So a couple of questions (which may seem silly to the informed),  Noel, when you say

5 hours ago, Noel said:

Our layout was built 28 years ago as a DC layout with extensive wiring for block sections and isolation rails (eg loco she's, sidings, terminus platforms, etc. To convert to DCC all I had to do was connect two wires from DCC controller to my DC switch box and flick every single switch on and leave them on. It took me 20 minutes. No droppers anywhere, and no tales of woe encountered it just works, and come of the track sections are quite long. The fishplates have made excellent conductors. DCC = Simpler

Is it correct to assume that you were using points with live frogs rather that the isolated type? If using the latter you would have have tp provide a power feed to sections that would otherwise be isolated?

Secondly, is there an issue with reverse loops?  In DC since the polarity is reversed it is necessary to create a section of track that can be isolated to facilitate reversal of polarity.

Dump questions perhaps but I'm dumb on this subject, Thanks

44 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Mad(e) (too many) purchases today but would have liked to see some coaching stock for the As and 121s as a 5th year offering tbh

Did exactly the same and have the same sentiments

On 12/10/2020 at 1:57 PM, jhb171achill said:

Very good points, Ironroad. If we go back to GSR times, more gas lighting - though not all. Having said that, I think you’re spot on regarding the viability of a whole lot of variants.

1.  Both brake thirds and full brakes were in fact equally common. If he did the FULL brake, he could include black’n’tan, as four of these were still kicking about in the 60s - as far as I can ascertain, two of them were in use  until 1968, thus for a very short time could be seen in the Galway mail train with a train which included Cravens! Thus, if there was an advantage of some of the batch being like this, we’ll and good.

2. Lower footboard - yes, on almost all varieties, in all circumstances.

3. Mansell wheels would be best, indeed. A few old relics in West Cork had SPOKED wheels, but not of this design! Three-hole otherwise.

4. Roof furniture - mostly electric in CIE times. I can’t be certain, but done acetylene; I had a list somewhere at one stage but I’m not sure if I still have it.

5. In CIE dark green or light green, roof details, foot boards and the like much the same. There were few if any alterations done to these carriages in their last years, bar the substitution of aluminium sheet for some rotten panels, sometimes simplifying beading  and panelling as a result. However this latter applied almost totally to ex-MGWR stock, so it’s irrelevant to these ones as they were a completely different design.

6.  Running numbers - I have lusts which can give them chapter & verse on this, but numbers were all over the place. You could get a single type of vehicle which had numbers like 6, 23, 56-78, 119, 214-7, and 1009-1021!

I think your point about brake 3rd -v- full brake is worth passing on in case it makes the idea more viable, though obviously for all of us, the more variants the better!

 

 

Thank you for all of that. Seems liker there is a good case for a full brake in Black n' Tan, and I'll certainly point that out. As a matter of curiosity if these ran with Cravens albeit for a short time what else did those Galway trains consist of? 

On 12/10/2020 at 2:14 PM, Westcorkrailway said:

i emailed them too! over potential CIE variant of the genesis coach. 6 wheeler's  to my knowledge were plentiful in west cork being used to the very end even in railcar sets! so it would be a good idea especially with hattons great record when it comes to models

 

 

What a great picture,   it expands the case.

3 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I suggested two variants - lined dark CIE green plus the lighter 1955-63 version, on the four six-wheelers. Obviously, the four wheelers wouldn’t count for Ireland.

Since these things resemble some GSWR designs, but aren’t remotely like NCC, BCDR, GNR, DSER, MGWR or West Cork designs, I didn’t go into those variants - although they ARE generic. So I suggested that if economics required something more, just GSR maroon.

Hi JHB, I have yet to follow up with Hatton's on my original communication with them and before doing so I have a few questions you may have the answers to.

Given they they are offering quite a few options in these models and the fact they may view what we are asking for as very niche and impractical it seems to me that our best chance is to narrow down the options we would like to see on Irish liveried versions.

Firstly do we need to see Irish livery on all four of the six wheelers. I note that one of these is a full brake and another is a brake 3rd. So the question is would one brake type  suffice and if so which one? That would reduce the number of coaches in Irish livery to three and means that anyone making up a rake of at four would purchase a multiple  of at least one of the composite coaches (which may make this more attractive to Hatton's).   

After that, the options offered are;

Wheel type' Mansell or three hole.

Roof furniture; Oil Gas or Electric

Lower Footboards; Optional.

So assuming we are considering CIE dark Green late '40s to '55 which of these options are appropriate?

Would this be different for the light green livery?

And for those interested in GSR Maroon what would be appropriate? 

And my final question, what running numbers would be appropriate?

I bow to your superior knowledge in these matters, Thank you

All true but I was wryly thinking that ideally a model of these six wheelers should have this sign on a window or two, the incongruity being that we have models with no smoking signs on the windows.

Interesting detail visible at 1:45 in the video. A "smoking" sign on the coach window advertising Wills Gold Flake. How times have changed.

Also available RTR was the NCC "Jinty" 0-6-0 tank loco, thanks to Murphy Models/Bachmann.  

Just the same a little dalliance* is permissible, as I think I've said before variety is the spice of life.   *(I mean modelling nothing else)

4 hours ago, murphaph said:

I'd really love an excuse to buy one of these for my planned 90s layout. I know I can't run one, prototypically anyway but parked in a siding rotting away perhaps? When was the last one scrapped?

You should expand your horizons, Given the slow pace of infrastructure  change on Irish Railways  over a long period of time it's possible (perhaps with a bit of license) to represent multiple periods on the same layout. 

8 hours ago, Mayner said:

Not a lot to report at this stage, it will probably be mid-late November before the review samples are ready and will be in a position to make an announcement on pricing and availability.

The photos are of 3D prints of the current version of the model with wheels and brake shoes set to OO gauge.

 

The graphics are preliminary, I haven't got the correct running number font.

 

 

Thanks for the update

Just to advise that I also contacted them recently with the same question and while a got a very polite response you seem to have managed to get a bit further than I did. I will certainly follow up with Mr. Mylett and as you suggest would encourage anyone else that is interested to do likewise. If you don't ask !!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are risking the IRE of the moderators for drifting off topic.  But I agree with you. An 800 would sell to collectors and to those of us that want to would run it and it would be particularly attractive packaged as a train set as you suggest.   Unfortunately given the time frames we have witnessed on the production of Irish models over the past 15 years or so I may not be around to see this.

But closer to the topic of this thread, I think it's a safer bet to expect a tank wagon from IRM in the nearer term. Your wife is right.

56 minutes ago, DiveController said:

Waiting on some CIE ballasts to run with CIE & IR ploughs, or gypsums, and blue Taras, and A classes (happy to wait) and AEC railcars, and CIE 'laminates', and 800 class, and Bandon tank and .......

AEC Railcars and laminates, that brings a smile to my face and let's not forget Park Royals. But do you really believe we can hope for an 800?

Just wondering if there has been any further progress on this project, I'm very interested

You are to be commended for this. However, I have to admit while I completely understand the price it is at the limit of where I might be tempted to go.  I would definitely go there (even plus a bit) for Maeve. 

I'm interested in virtually everything that ran in the period 1950 - 2000 but even in that I need to set some limits and accordingly basically ruled out Northern Steam but you are seriously tempting me to go there, for sure I would not be able to resist a model of No.4.

I'll complete the survey for you. 

Wishing you the very best of luck with this.