Ironroad

This may be informative

http://s374444733.websitehome.co.uk/code75/index.htm

On 7/12/2020 at 8:27 PM, mmie353 said:

Lads,

Interesting that this topic came up as I am about a month out from actually starting on my layout here in the US. I went to my local store yesterday who have only code 83 from Peco and code 100 from Atlas. I would prefer to go with Peco but is there much of a difference besides the height of the rail between code 83 and code 75?

Have no track plan yet but I am about finished prepping the room where it is going in and well I am also looking in a couple of weeks of getting baseboards to get going, all going well. 

Mark

Some thoughts. 

For someone in Nth America the best choice is probably code 83 because it is readily available and it's my understanding that code 75 is actually slightly under scale.

Also for someone in Nth America using code 100,, a good option is to use Peco point work with Atlas track. I found Atlas easier to lay and the sleeper spacing is wider (more prototypical than Peco). Granted the sleeper colouring is different but this will most likely be painted anyway.

This is and extremely important topic and there and been a lot of interesting and valid input in which the consensus seems to be that supplying a niche market is problematic and most certainly anything niche within that market is not going to happen. So, it seems to me that if there are things we want “we” (the interested modelers and collectors) need to be more proactive in the process.

As already mentioned, gone are the days when producers offered a range of products with little variation or upgrade year after year. In today’s world we need to be very alert to what is developing and on offer and to snap up what we want immediately because when “it’s gone it’s gone”.  After that it is down to what might appear on EBAY and that can really determine for us “the price of our desires”.

That is why I have been happy to pay upfront when pre-ordering from IRM and was very concerned when they suggested they were discontinuing this practice. I do acknowledge that initially I was a bit uneasy with paying upfront because while this was not crowdfunding, it seemed a little akin to that.  Any initial unease has long dissipated  Ultimately I’m happy to pay upfront because (a) it gives me peace of mind that I will secure the items I want and (b) I’m happy to help fund the project though I acknowledge this was never suggested by IRM and they committed to projects without real certainty of recouping their outlays.

I was astonished when IRM produced the plough vans. While they compliment the ballast wagons, they are nonetheless a very niche item in a niche market and I would imagine it will take some time to shift this stock and this may be a motivating factor in a re-run of the ballast wagons, But at the same time a deterrent to producing a regular brake van (or other one-time items in a rake).

However, in considering a re-run of anything, the producer must consider whether demand will be at similar levels as the original and whether upgrades are required or necessary.  

There is a precedent. The Murphy Models LIMA class 201 release in 2001 was superseded by a vastly improved re-release in 2011 but it seems to me that nine years later the re-release has not sold out whereas the original sold out within two years. So that might suggest there is little chance of a successful re- release of an upgraded Baby GM, at very least it would make the producer very cautious.

There is anther question here. How many original buyers of the 201 bought the re-release? How many were simply happy to accept what some would point out as shortcomings in the original given that it was nonetheless a reasonable representation of this locomotive?

How much does super detailing cost us and is there a trade off in robustness? Personally I don’t think rotating axle caps are necessary (or add that much) and I get worried when IRM consider it necessary to include 16 spares in each box and to find some already missing when the box is opened for the first time. How many of us have broken detail on our super detailed models? EG the brake wheels on IRM wagons (because of the fineness of the stem) and the roof detail on MM locos? There was time that those who wanted super detailing were happy to add this themselves as part of the fun in the hobby.

I would advocate this. If it helps with costs, we should probably row back a little on the fiddly detail (particularly things that cannot be seen) and secondly. we should consider how we might work with producers to make it possible to manufacture items we desire.

On this second point I would ask if IRM would be interested in managing crowd funded projects? I acknowledge this route has failed modelers in the UK in the past but with proper ring-fencing of the funds IE escrow accounts it should be possible to make this work. The great advantage is that nothing proceeds without sufficient demand and financial commitment on the part of the purchasers and with IRM hosting there is the benefit of their expertise.

2 hours ago, DiveController said:

ok, I put the Royal Mail tracking number from IRM Shopify into USPS and no update other than 'Acceptance" in UK 10 days ago. I'll sit it out and hope. I have another package (nor IRM) stuck in 'IndiaNoPlace', IN 

That seems most odd, you seem to be very unfortunate. I was notified on Jun 17 by IRM that the parcel had shipped and can see acceptance on that date by the Royal Mail. I can also see that it was processed through the USPS Chicago facility on Jun 24, arrived Marietta GA Jun 27 and delivered (as was anticipated while still in Chicago) on Mon Jun 29. Only complaint is that the postman left the parcel in blazing sunshine in the front yard (about 90f) where it sat for over 4 hours until I arrived home. 

2 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi Ironroad,

I’m sorry, but the points are valid. Compare our product line in number to any of the big British retailers and it becomes clear how they can reduce sales margin across their inventory and make money whereas a smaller retailer like ourselves cannot. It’s very simple economics. Also, VAT is 3% lower and Sterling is in flux to say the least. 

However, I’m delighted to report that many people have supported us with 121 purchases and we are very thankful for that. At the end of the day; it’s your money, it’s your choice. I’m glad people choose us, as it shows we are doing something right and we can support Murphy Models AND put the money earned into tooling new Irish outline models . That’s a win for the hobby.

Cheers
 

Fran

 

 

A win for the hobby is dependent on sufficient volumes being sold and sticking to RRP is counterproductive in that regard.   My comments have not been directed at any retailer in particular and I don't think the comparison you are making with pure retailers that carry the overhead of operating physical shops  and holding large and wide ranging inventory is valid. 

Some of us are lucky enough to have a comprehensive model shop near us for everything we need from big ticket items down to the small specialist items but these shops are an endangered species. Paying a premium to support them is fine but won't be enough in the long term. They themselves need to take action to ensure survival and that means going head to head with the so called "boxshifters".   Why accept being undercut by a British retailer, why not at least match their prices and take them on in their own (UK) market across all products? 

I'll close off on that note

1 hour ago, Warbonnet said:

Because Irish retailers are sticking to the manufacturers RRP, while the boxshifters are slashing the price as they sell models in much higher volumes across all their product lines to a much larger market.

 

3 hours ago, flange lubricator said:

You are looking are two completely different markets  when you compare the Republic of Ireland and the UK, weather we like it or not Ireland is a high  priced economy , higher wages , higher costs , higher Vat etc. What we do however lack among a lot of dealers here  is a deal culture which is very much part of modern trade  , perhaps retailers here would do better if they were prepared to offer a better priced based on increased numbers , example if you buy six we will do a special price etc . Very similar to IRM doing there bundle deals on wagons . 

Gentlemen, both of you are making a distinction between an Irish and an UK market when in fact there is only one market for models of Irish interest and that market is not based in a single country. And in that context the question "why is there such a disparity in price between retailers, wherever they are based? is still valid.  I can think of no reason Irish retailers cannot compete with UK retailers across the board and should be doing so in the interests of survival.  The concept of expecting RRP is long dead in retail.

By all means shop local, but we live in a competitive world and the real question is "why is there such a disparity in price?" 

6 hours ago, TimO said:

This is a fabulous development and I look forward to placing orders for both types of wagon. In relation to the grain wagons:

1. Do you know how many of these wagons existed and were they all built at the same time or were they built in a number of lots?

2. Ranks Ireland had flour mills at North City Mills, Phibsboro; Clara, Co Offaly; Limerick and Cork. I presume these wagons were used to bring imported wheat from either Limerick or Cork docks to the other mills for milling into flour. Do you know if all these locations were rail served? 

3. Were the grain wagons loaded anywhere else?

4. Were the CIE liveried grain wagons used for the same traffic?

5. Were the grain wagons used for transporting other types of grain such as barley for animal feed production?

I have filled in the survey.

I cannot provide a complete answer but can cay that the Nth City Mills was served by a siding up until the early 1970’s. The track layout can be seen on Geo Hive http://map.geohive.ie/mapviewer.html. (select the historic map 1888 -1913 and zoom into the Phibsborough area). The siding branched off the  MGWR line on the north side of the Royal Canal immediately after that line crosses from the south to the north side of the canal at the 7^th lock  but since the Mills are on the south side of the Royal Canal this siding crossed back across the canal just below the 6^th lock. The supporting stone walls of this bridge still exist. There were a couple of loops on this siding. Logically it would seem that wagons serving the mills  were probably shunted between there and the Midland yard at Nth Wall for marshalling.

4 hours ago, Garfield said:

Hi Ironroad,

That's because this product is being developed independently by Mayner; IRM's involvement in this project is purely to facilitate development and manufacture of the product on behalf of JM Design.

Hope that clarifies things. 

Personally speaking, I think this is a brave and exciting move into uncharted territory for Irish RTR by JM, and I look forward to buying some of these wagons for my own use in due course.   

 

Absolutely very brave and I also look forward to buying some of these wagons.  My sentiment was to have this news broadcast as widely as possible.

There appears to be  no reference to this proposed joint venture on the IRM web site. May I suggest that it might be a good idea to do and also provide the link to the survey on that site

. 

Excellent news; and hope there is sufficient interest to make this a reality.

16 hours ago, DiveController said:

OMG! This is fantastic. The grain wagons would be my top choice, all liveries. Very PC there, John @Mayner, with the 'winged wheel'.

What's the time frame for the broken wheel grains?  Did they retain red wheels or just the CAD10567 is a little beauty. I would need a rake of these. Will there be more running numbers and is the cost per wagon or a set/pair?

 

Indeed 'Winged or Flying Wheel" is the proper description of the logo,  although while CIE should have known better and the later logo probably deserves the description of "broken wheel" it should really be referred to as the "Roundel".

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/dapol-issues-product-recall/

More that seem too good to be true, the alleged stock levels are staggering.

https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=13512

https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=5898

https://muy.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_3&products_id=7873

This may be of interest to some, again very keen price !!!

https://comoda.spraytanfresno.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=35094

Yes one of the hazards of contracting manufacture in China particularly for smaller businesses. Spend a little time on ebay and many things on offer directly from Chinese vendors will seem suspicious albeit in this case they seem to have supplied a Spanish retailer. However, even if a lawsuit is successful I doubt it could be pursued to the level of the customers, it being more likely the terms would be that that the owners/designers of the products would be awarded compensation for those sales. Although I suspect enforcing a judgement might prove difficult, not to mention the dilemma faced by those contracting manufacture of finding alternative producers. 

On 4/15/2020 at 8:18 AM, WRENNEIRE said:

Some info for any of our US members
Stocks most of the MM range and should have the 121's when they arrive

San Antonio, Texas

http://models11.com/

I appreciate the thought and as a US resident I'm aware of this retailer. However they are very expensive and all things considered I find Hattons are a better bet even from this distance..

Bundle ordered, thank you for listening

4 hours ago, Warbonnet said:

We had significant feedback from a number of customers that they do not wish to pay money down on a model and wait till they come in, especially if it is delayed or a significant amount of time, like the liners were.

Are these the same customers that missed out on the liners because they kept their money in their pockets?  So they get catered to rather than those who demonstrated and kept faith in you.  As I was trying to say in my initial post you need some mechanism to cater to advance ordering. There will always be delays we all know that.

Thank you

1 hour ago, Warbonnet said:

Hi there,

Yes, we want to move away from you guys paying up front, then waiting to get the models. This way you pay your money and get your model a couple of days later via mail order. It also reduces a lot of headaches from an admin point of view for us as it prevents pre-orders and on the shelf items being ordered together at the same time (you would not believe what a faff that is for us!

Cheers!

Fran

Hi Fran, while I can appreciate the issue from your point of view,  I have been quite happy to pay on pre-ordering up front for fear of being left out in the cold in the rush when items do become available particularly if for any reason I'm otherwise distracted. Have you considered the concept of accepting advance orders without payment or even a commitment to pay as Hattons do. They simply send those who have expressed an interest an e-mail when items become available and you can proceed with the order or not at that point. I would have thought that some form of advance ordering would be useful to you in determining demand.

Hi, jhb171achill, that was my enquiry and the thread was “Bachmann Irish Train Set” in the “For Sale or Wanted Forum”. As I think I commented in my last post  in that thread we were getting out on a tangent but there is a link to instructions in that thread on converting the Bachmann N class loco to DCC  that  I think you were interested in. Here it is again http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmannndccinstr.htm

Many many thanks for taking the trouble to investigate further the question of the liveries carried by the Irish K1 & K1a class Woolwich Moguls.

The reason for my question was to establish the authenticity of the liveries produced by Bachmann for Murphy Models and whether there were others that I might indulge in. So taking the data in table you’ve presented together with what has been said previously we can probably sum up as follows;

Originally all went into service in Grey and in some cases that Gray survived to at least 1956.

From about 1947 CIE started painting them Green, as produced by Bachmann/MM and maybe retained this to the end of their days but this is not certain. Some may reverted to Grey or even Black.

From 1956 some were painted black (presumably those with original grey livery that had not been painted green). The Bachmann/MM model of no. 383 in flat black is therefore probably correct

In the late 50’s one, was painted a gloss black with red lining and used on the Cork to Rosslare service. The Bachmann/MM model of this is numbered 388 but an earlier post noted this as being no. 384.

Beyond this Mike84c posted a picture of his weathered version of this model which was originally featured in a forum (A weathered Woolwich and a couple of vans) back in 2015. This appears to be in a green livery with red lining and to quote Mile 84c from June 2015;-

 I did base the loco on a couple of pictures in Irish Railways in colour 1947-1970 No 378 features twice but I think the dirty patches look black &light grey on the boiler&cab with brown below the running plate. A pal thinks its brown! colour is in the eye of the beholder!!!

So is this a variant of the green livery?  

All in all from a modeling perspective there is probably sufficient license to run Grey, Green and Black together.

Other points of interest established in these threads:

Originally these locomotives had a flat smoke box door and over time these were replaced with the GSR dished style door some with and some without a wheel handle. It is unlikely that any of the original flat doors survived into the 1950’s.  The smokebox door on the Bachmann/MM model is the flat type and those of us who are more particular may want to replace it.  In the earlier forum minister_for_hardship posted the following pictures of all three door variations and one of these shows no 383 with a dished door and wheel.

For those interested in making modifications Mike 84c provided the following information.

Narrow Planet do the GSW cast number plates, I have used several and they are very good. Check the website.  Southeastern Finecast will sell a  white metal cast Wainwright  pattern dished smoke box  door and I think Andrew at 51L  has etchings for the circular GCR/LNW pattern smoke box door handles.

The Bachmann/MM model represents the K1 rather than the K1a given the K1a had larger driving wheels.  KI driving wheels were 5’6”, K1a driving wheels were 6’1”. KI’s were numbered 372-391 and Kia’s were numbered 393-398.  The number 392 was not assigned. The first one was built by the MGWR and was assigned number 375 by the GSR; this locomotive was involved in the fatal crash in Cahir in 1955.

One thing I’ve noticed from photographs is that unlike the British N class the Irish K1 class does not appear to have steps to the footplate fitted at the front (behind the buffer beam). These were not fitted to the model as presumably they may present a problem on tight curves but were included in the accessory pack.

This posting is in part an attempt to summarise some information on this website that is pertinent to these locos but is by no means comprehensive. There is a mine of information on all manner of Irish Railway stuff buried in this website, is anyone brave enough to collate it? As Mike 84c observed;

 Mind you finding the info again in the dim and distant future can be a challenge! 

Many thanks JHB for that very comprehensive answer and it delights me to know that the green livery on this model is authentic and that there is a reasonable possibility that the flat black livery may also have existed in the late ‘50’s. You also note that one had a special livery for the Cork Rosslare Service (Green with Red lining) as nicely modeled by Mike 84C (no 378) above.  But I still have it fixed in my head from somewhere that one was painted a gloss black lined in red as modeled by MM and so I went off on a Google search and came full circle by finding that the K class locos have been the subject of discussion at least twice previously on this website in 2012 and again in 2017.  In a posting in 2012 you noted that no.384 was painted black with red lining. So would it be fair to say there were potentially 5 different liveries in the 1950s albeit not at any one time with two being unique to individual locos:-   grey, two 2 variants of green, lined black and plain black.  

I’m conscious that we are going off on a tangent on the subject matter of this thread and this seems to have happened in 2017 when Garfield intervened.

Thread created in 2017

MGWR/GSR K1/K1a class (Woolwich Moguls)

Quote from Garfield July 7 2017

Hi folks,

 I've split this conversation from the thread in the 'for sale' section. Can I respectfully remind you all not to derail (pun intended) such threads with tangential discussion. Thanks!

Perhaps this would be appropriate to do again but also consolidating these threads. There is also a thread from 2012 covering the 1955 beet train crash in Cahir involving no 375 of this loco class.

Thread created in 2012

GSR & CIE locomotive list for grey, green or black livery

What follows was written by JHB171achill December 8 2012

Having managed to find old notes in the chaotic parallel world which to outsiders is my "study", here are the details I had promised of loco liveries. The bulk of this material originated from the late Drew Donaldson and Bob Clements, both probably the greatest ever authorities on GSR / CIE steam locomotives.

 In GSR days, all locomotives were battleship grey as currently seen on RPSI's J15 186. This was inherited from the GSWR's post-1918 livery. No lining was applied, and cab interiors, frame interiors, every single detail bar the red buffer beams, were grey. The GSR never painted anything, broad or narrow gauge, black. Given an exception to every rule, of course, the GSR had just three: the 800 class, painted a mid-green with bluish tint, and yellow (not white) and black lining. Name and number plates on the 800 class had raised polished numbers and lettering, and blue backgrounds. All other (grey) locos had the numberplates just painted over, or sometimes the raised edges and numbers polished to bare metal, and occasionally painted a light creamy yellow colour, particularly after CIE took over.

 In CIE days, a small number of locos were painted lined green, as on 800 in Cultra Museum (though ignore the "G S" on its tender - should be a "flying snail" for that livery). The locomotives painted green were as follows:

1. All surviving 4.6.0s inc. 400 class, 800 class, etc. 

2. All repainted "Woolwich" 2.6.0s. One, No. 384, received a lined black livery, with red lining, eau-de-nil "snail" and cream painted cabside number, as depicted on the excellent Murphy Models version, for a short time in then late '50s. This loco was used on the Cork - Rosslare (via Mallow) Boat Train.

3. Most Dublin Suburban tank engines.

4. B4 class No. 467, D4 No. 336 (for a short period, then back to grey), D12 No. 305 and D14 No. 61 (which latter must have made a fine sight!). GSWR J30 (preserved at Downpatrick) was repainted in the late 1950s in its final years of traffic in a shade which if not actual black was as good as black. It had a large painted pale yellow number at that stage.

 5. One ex-GSWR J15 (193), and one ex-MGWR J18 (593), which were repainted in Cork shortly before the end of steam had the all over grey but with black smoke boxes. One "Bandon Tank" (464) also based there was repainted at the same time in what appears to have been a much darker shade of grey, with black smoke box.

6. In the very final years of steam (late 50s to early 60s), some of the very few locomotives which saw a paintbrush by then were turned out in unlined black. They were few in number and I have the details somewhere, but not to hand. When I find the info I'll post it here in the hope that it is of assistance.

 7. All locomotives receiving green livery except the 800 class had painted numerals and "snails" - in both cases, the standard pale green "eau-de-nil" colour was used, as opposed to the light yellow used to paint numerals on grey / black locomotives. "Snails" were n ever light yellow though - light green on tenders of grey / black engines. No tender engines (including, not surprisingly, all narrow gauge engines), ever had "snails".

8. No narrow gauge engines were ever green or black. (A Cavan & Leitrim 4.4.0 would have looked amazing in green!! The closest to this was in the form of C & L No. 1 which remained in C & L green until the mid 1930s, thus one of the very last locos in pre-grouping livery. C & L livery was green, lined red and white).

 9. Details: the "eau-de-nil" snails were lined in gold, and green locos had buffer beams (always red) lined with black.

 10. The 800 class differed from other green locos in retaining their numberplates. One of the trio (or possibly two, but not 800 itself) had a red-painted background to the name and numberplates, as currently on the RPSI's 461. For a very short time over the winter of 1952/3, 802 carried a lighter shade of green, possibly as a short-term experiment, as the lighter green applied to carriages, some railcars and diesel locomotives appeared a short time later.

 I hope this is of interest.

It is indeed

19 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Had a look through the books and read the narrative on the moguls in Clements McMahon. As we thought, no 1950s pics show an original door. The magisterial duo just mentioned imply that doors were replaced on a rolling basis in the 30s. 

Thank you much appreciated

16 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I've a couple of those locos. I've never run them so I don't even know what state they're in. However, my question: are they easy to convert to DCC?

Here is a link to instructions on converting this loco to DCC

http://www.bromsgrovemodels.co.uk/bachmannndccinstr.htm

I'm aware of your expertise on liveries, so may I ask if any of this class was ever painted green (per the Bachmann/MM version). I believe one may have been painted a gloss black and lined as per Bachmann /MM but is the plain matt black version produced by Bachmann/MM correct or was it in reality grey that  had weathered to a dirty black. The model certainly looks the part and in my vague memory of Irish steam locos they appeared to be black. 

2 hours ago, Galteemore said:

 TBH if it was me I’d put a dished door and wheel on anyway. Nothing says 5’3” like a smokebox door wheel !

I'm thinking you are right and will probably do this at some point although if you have/find a 1950's photo of one with a flat door that would be convenient. thanks

Very interesting thank you. So did any flat doors survive into the 1950's?  Otherwise it looks like I'll need to consider a bit of butchering. 

On 3/11/2020 at 4:08 PM, Broithe said:

Would the rails (and sleepers?) be a little bit on the large side for 00?

A correction is needed to my original post as I stated O scale is 7 mm to one foot ignoring the fact that there are different standards in the UK, US and Europe.  UK O scale is 1:43.5,  Europe except France is 1:45 and US is 1:48. 

The track used by UK O scale 36" 'narrow gauge modelers is O21 which is 21 MM gauge but to my knowledge no one makes track for this market which is a pity as it could be a good solution for Irish OO. 

The track used by US O scale 36" narrow gauge modelers is On3 which is 19.2 MM gauge and there is at least one producer in the US of this track in 1m flexible lengths and they also supply left and right points (no 6 which are 9.5 degrees at the frog-same as Peco code 83 whereas Peco code 100 and code 75 points are 12 degrees at the frog)  While this is still not 21mm it is a lot better  than 16.5 mm gauge and even better that EM or Scale4 for the purposes of representing Irish broad gauge in OO scale. And I'm curious if anyone has considered this and what the pros and cons may be.  

As to the proportions of the rail and sleepers. I have not seen or inspected this product personally but the rail is advertised as code 100 which is the same as most of us are already using. I would note that while code 75 maybe preferred by some I think code 83 is closer to the Irish standard. As regards the sleepers,  since the sleepers of prototype narrow gauge track were/are proportionally smaller than the sleepers used on standard gauge or broad gauge track I suspect the proportions of On3 track may be acceptable.