Mayner

IE had to be seen to be getting the best return possible for the MK3s before disposing of them for scrap. I think IE invited submissions of interest before they were withdrawn and more earlier this year. It may have been a bit like the West Clare Diesels the asking price was too low.

Ah no. Give me the roar of a B201 climbing the bank from Dún Laoghaire to Dalkey in notch 8 with a heavy suburban train.

Its funny fast forward to 30 years to present day Auckland rebuilt 1st generation GM export units being worked to death on Push Pull suburban trains.

Typical I wonder who will do the Official Wagons!

Brendan

G!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MM 071, SSM Meabdh, Leslies IRCH standard van now the Guinness Iron Lung what next?

I think the GNR originally may have carried 3 containers staggered on a standard 17'11" flat, then CIE used a 20' 11'wb wagon with 3 containers in line.

Very nice any idea of price and if Leslie is doing an unlettered version?

The MGWR had similar hard topped and convertible vans which lasted into the late 1950s with Flying Snail and numbers with an m suffix.

Fair play Frank with all those industries you have managed to create an Irish outline American or Australian layout .

Maybe the Distrrict Manager's brother is running a Short Line on the side when no one in Cork let alone Kingsbridge is looking?

CIE was know for its clean locos and stock in the 60s and 70s the rot set in with IE in the 80s.

Any chance of a closer look at those sheeted opens?

I didn't realise that's how they unloaded the Tara's and shale. Walthers do the kit in HO, would make a brilliant feature on a layout. Here's how it can be adapted to fully working http://members.trainorders.com/pmack/dumper.htm

The Shale had much the same unloading arrangement with a gravity run off as the Mogul traffic at Foynes just much larger wagons http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com/photos/album/48/Golden-Days-at-Foynes#photo=6.

Paul Shannon's irish Railfreight Video has interesting footage at Castlemugnet, building an operating tippler would be the easy bit

Alexandra Road Dublin. http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,719569,734771,7,4. CIE fuel oil depot on left, ESSO in middle, Irish Tar and Bitumen with double line connection on left, the B&I container terminal was served by the partially lifted loop East of Breakwater Road, the Asahi Terminal was on the opposite side to B&I.

I think the cut of 6 wagons in the Ortho 2000 view may well have been used for static storage. Has anyone a photo of the depot?

All you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about Bitumen http://www.irishtar.ie/itproducts.htm

Tar seems to have been carried in 45Gal drums in open wagons up to the 1950s, then carried in anchor mounted tank wagons up to the introduction of de-mountables and liner train operation.

Gruesome Tanker Galway 1980?

Some of these wagons may have been used for storage at the Alexandra Road depot up to the end of railborne traffic.

Besides Sligo, Oranmore, Cahir and Mallow there seems to have been depots at Ballingarne, Clarecastle, Cork, Ferns, Lixnaw, Tralee most of these closed with the ending of wagon load.

Some depots like Ballingarne and Cahir had two storey buildings that presumably housed the heating plant and Council offices others like Tralee (Rock st) a simple structure housing the heating plant for transferring bitumen from rail to road tankers. Most only seem to have dealt with one or two wagons at a time Ballingarne had one extremly short siding.

Tralee Rock St

I have had some progress and a few setbacks with getting the narrow gauge up and running but at least I seem to be moving forward.

I have two Donegal railcars, four CIE steam locos and a little Bemo tractor the only reliably. The locos, railcars & were assembled from kits about 15-20 years ago.

I was going to fit one of the railcars with a Bull-Ant but decided to try and persevere with the original Fleischmann Picillo N Scale drive.

Fitting the Bull Ant would have required some work and the old whitemetal body mouldings seem to be getting brittle and may not survive the re-build.

Brand new Bull Ant diesel shunter perhaps?

Donegal/IOM Railcar This was built from a whitemetal kit dating from the 1970s 20 years ago, cracks appeared two of the cab window pillars when I started to do some work on the body to fit the Bull Ant, one of the cab sides then broke away from the roof, the joys of superglue assembly.

The main problem with this car has been the wheels so it may be simpler to buy some better quality wheelsets.

I decided to concentrate on the steam locos and managed to get the two Hunslets nicely, they both made it from the station to fiddle yard and back and actually managed to pull a train without a derailment:banana:

In the 195os the old C&L had really clapped out locos and stock but the track had to be in first class condition for the many coal specials

No 8 Queen Victoria based on a 1950s colour photo Built around 1996 painted and weathered with a Badger airbrush railmatch dirty black, not sure what I used on the smoke box, matt varnish finish. The bogies on these are a bit tempremental, combination off design, plastic centred wheelsets and my track.

In must build a cradle to protect the paint finish while working on what are now fairly old models.

In this case I have replaced the original wheels with a set of Parkside OOn3 wheels, and altered the bogie pivot to the classical trainset swing link arrangement. Now de-rails in only one spot, probably a combination of tight a radius and a track fault.

The biggest on going problem is getting all rolling stock wheels up to standard and sorting out the couplings.

Its impossible to determine whether a problem occurs as a result of the vehicle or track unless all the wheels are to a set standard.

I have started to replace the worst wheelsets with Parkside, most of the wagons were supplied with loose wheels and axles which you had to fit yourself, many of which do not run true.

I used kadee N scale couplers but coupling is not reliable mainly because of excessive sideplay with kit built stock. It may well be a matter of first sorting out the wheels and sideplay before looking at the couplers.

John, given I've only just launched the 800, not likely! Seriously though, if I do any other loco, it will be either a D17 or D19. But I have several other items that are close to my heart to do before I go near another loco or DMU.

The 3/4 front view of the model certainly captures the same massive look as Glenderg's screen saver.

If you ever get round to the D17 I will definitely have one maybe two to keep my J15s company 2 built, one in the works, 2 more waiting!

CIE used to use a rectangular board with the speed limit in black at the commencement, with an arrow below the speed limit for a diverging route at junctions, this arrangement seems to have dated back to the 1950s.

The main thing to remember is that speed through junctions is largely controlled by signalling, unless a junction is designed for high speed running a train taking the diverging route at junction is running under restricted (yellow) signal aspects, and is prepared to stop at the next signal as until it clears the junction.

Impressive looking model.

Its strange how odd proportions the 800s were compared with locos from the same era http://www.tower-models.com/towermodels/ggauge/tower/g1tl/scot/index.htm and GNR VS http://www.flickr.com/photos/75395133@N00/4597796405/

Any chance of a Vs Des?

Frank I don't know if these are any good to you I hope they are.

 

 

 

 

The covered hopper is a magnesite wagon, the open is a tippler once used for carrying lead/zinc from Silvermines (Mogul) to Foynes when loaded the ore was covered by a tarpaulin.

 

 

.

Frank

Looking good you are a fast worker, that CIE District Manager must have had connections in high places saving the line and managing to hideThe a Woolwich Mogul.

The closure of the Boat Train Route was a pretty close run thing at one time there were plans to mine Dolomite at Lombardstown on the Kerry Road in addition to the Bennetts Bridge deposit and rail it to Ballinacourty.

Without stretching things too far you could run a couple of daily Lombardstown-Ballinacourty Dolomite trains 20t hoppers and pairs of 141s and a Ballinacourty-Cork Tivilo Oil & Magnesite Train 001 with tank wagons and covered hoppers, plus a daily Cork Nort Esk-Waterford Bell Liner.

Alan

The GSWR built large 4-4-0s the 321 later D2 Class in the early 1900s but had to use very light framing and tapered boilers to keep the axle load down to 16 3/4tons, these engines were later re-built with heavier framing in later GSWR/GSR days and eventually all received large parrallel boilers.

The problem was more acute with goods locos the 355 Class 0-6-0s of 1903 were quickly converted into 2-6-0s and the GSWR introduced its first 4-6-0 in 1905 in an attempt to produce a more powerfull locomotive within the 16 ton limit.

The problem seems to have been resolved by the time Mansell introduced 341 Sir Basil Goulding in 1913 arguably the best Southern 4-4-0 with an axle load of over 19 tons.

The GSWR locos of the early 1900s had a very distinctive modern but elegant styling, distinctive from the archaic styling of the earlier McDonald/Aspinal/Ivatt era and the later re-builds with large parrallel boilers and more modern cabs which largely spoiled their appearance.

By contrast by 1903 the MGWR had strengthened the Shannon Bidge at Athlone and upgraded the Dublin-Galway main line to accept an 18 ton axle loading. The time the A "Celtic" Class 4-4-0s & B Class 0-6-0s were the heaviest and most powerfull locos in Ireland. After 1900 the MGWR basically adapated a large engine policy and introduced mixed traffic 4-4-0 & 0-6-0 Classes which could basically go anywhere except the lighter branches and light railway sections.

Going back to track although I have a stock of ply sleepers and rivets, I have used PCB for flatbottom and C&L plastic chairs with plastic or ply sleepers for trackk construction.

Some local users use a 1:5 ratio of PCB to ply sleepers or varients of the American spiked construction. I do not have a sleeper punch but my local track supplier who models the Lynton & Barnstaple in 7mm has suggetted using the Micromark or NSWL Sensipress.

He has also suggested using exhausted ink-jet catridges as a source of sleeper stain using Isopropyl Alchol to extract the remaining ink from the catridge.

Pen-Y-Mount Junction July 2002

Work in progress photo of building a turnout in situ to form the crossover between the existing WHHR and the future Welsh Highland Railway main line. The turnout in the distance was supplied assembled in 50lb/Y material the WHHR turnout is in 75lb/Y material once commonly used in British Military sites and Industrial railways.

1. Put kettle & frying pan on gas rings.

2. Position the sleepers using a long tape.

3. Position and then screw down the right hand stock, diverging switch and check rails.

4. Cook Fies up large quantity of eggs, bacon, blackpudding, sausages and fried bread

6. Adjust as necessary using crow bars.

7. Position, gauge and temporary screw down diverging stock rail and straight switch assembly.

8. Breckfast/lunch break

9. Measure up, cut, drill, position, gauge and screw down straight closure rail.

10. Check alignment, adjust, pack with ballast and test with loco.

11. Position, gauge and temporary screw down diverging check rail.

12. Measure up, cut, drill, position, curve, and screw down curved closure rail.

13. The interesting bit curve diverging stock and check rails using Jim Crow until the desired radius is achieved.

14. Gauge and screw down diverging stock and check rails.

15. Rough pack crossing timbers.

16. Test with suitable loco or piece of rolling stock.

17. Tea Break and muffins. (If successful otherwise its going to be a very long day/evening/night)

18. Line and lift with rail jacks.

19. Ballast and pack with kango hammers or point and crossing tamper.

20. Clamp and lock switches.

21. Inform Traffic Department work complete and lift posession.

22. Off to Pub .

Stephen.

Judging by the look of that loco you will need some serious ventilation in the attic

The smoke was from a clapped out 141 climbing to Cabra not 230.

John,

 

Thanks for the reply. Sorry about the curveballs. That's what comes from having guru status (or was that someone else?).

 

I'm afraid I asked the wrong question. I was forgetting that flat bottom rail gets a rebate, rather than a joggle, if it gets anything at all.

 

I had seen the Brassmasters fb baseplates and was glad I wasn't trying to model the 70s or 80s. After seeing Rich's trouble with concrete sleepers, I think I'm glad I'm not trying anything more up to date either.

 

I had thought the Irish North West had been relaid with bullhead at some time before closure. I must go back and look at some more pics to see what Great Northern flatbottom was like.

 

Two bolts being sufficient makes sense, and explains why the GWR used 2 bolt chairs. It makes the 3 and 4 bolt patterns look like over-engineering. I do think I remember most of the holes being bolted on running lines.

 

The most remarkable track I've seen is modern flat bottom on wooden sleepers held with pandrol clips. It seems like far too complex an arrangement.

 

I'll take your advice about tinning and see how I get on.

 

 

Rich,

 

Those are great trackwork photos and thanks for the permission. The bullhead on concrete sleepers seems like a classic. How did they attach the chairs to the sleepers?

 

 

Alan

Great looking point I am thinking of having a go at ply & rivet construction at some stage.

I have worked on full size narrow gauge track & we basically follow much the same sequence of assembly working from one side to the other gauging the opposite check rail off the crossing, finally fitting in the gut or closure rails in the gap between the switches and crossing assembly. We even use similar gauges, there is a great sence of releif and achievement when the first loco safely crosses through the turnout.

If you are trying to achieve such a high level of accuracy have a look at http://archive.org/stream/railwayconstruc01millgoog#page/n339/mode/2up William Mills the GNR(I) Engineers 1898 text book on Railway Construction.

Mills was lucky to have started with a clean slate with the formation of the GNR in the 1870s was able to develop his own standards rather than the GSWR where the Engineers were dealing with an engineering legacy dating from the 1840s.

While both the GNR & GSWR used BH on the main lines in tthe early 1900 they were very different the GNR used inside chaired rail like the English Midland, the GSWR seems to have gone straight to outside chaired rail, but while the GNR & Midland introduced large 4-4-0 & 0-6-0 locomotives in the early 1900s without too much drama, the GSWR operating department had to jump through all sorts of hoops to keep it heavy passenger and freight locomotives within acceptable weight limits, including tapered boilers and additional carrying wheels. The GSR spent a lot of time and money in the 1920s rebuilding relatively modern GSWR 4-4-0s with heavier frames and large parrallel boilers.

I think the main thing that should not be forgotten is that PW practice does not exist in a vacuum, in the early 1900s the GSWR would still have the odd section of 1840s Bridge Rail in the odd siding or yard, by the 1950s the GNR had largely eliminated inside chaired bullhead from its main lines, though it was still used in stations and on secondary lines, 95lb jointed flatbottom with elastic spike fixings was going in on main lines and 85-90lb flatbottom similar to that used by CIE was going in on secondary lines.

Its really worth while seeking out historic photographs, up to the introduction of mechanised track maintenance centre cess drainage was often used in cuttings and away from main lines the sleeper ends were not always "boxed in" with ballat.

I recently found a photo of Shankill Station in DWWR days the up road from Bray laid in outside chaired BH, the down road in FB both with centre cess drainage.

The main advanatge of the Pandrol Clip and Elastic Spike over traditional spiked or bolted fixings is that it allows the rail to flex under load with less maintenance hammering back loosened spikes and tightening fixings. CIE originally cast concrete sleepers with a wooden insert to accept an elastic spike. Maany of thee leeper ended up in the outh Eatern Coatal defence between Kilcoole and Newcatle

I am not sure about Ireland but in the UK GWR chairs with cast in through-bolts were used with Domac sleepered track, which is very popular with preservationists.

Shinkensen

Nice model, realistic weathering, love the old ferry, how did you do the water?

Very special place I used to travel down on weekends in the early 2000s to chase the beet trains, one day I arrived just after they had finished unloding the last timber train.

Originally the main line ran through the area where the Auto-ballasters & MK3s are parked with extensive siding on both side of the main running lines. The present laayout dates from when the yrd was re-modelled in the 1970s

John

I dont know if there is a rtr model but one of these would be a bit different http://www.srpsmuseum.org.uk/10153.htm a rake of these wagons formed the Inchacore Oil Train in the late 70s-80s.

The wagons were originally used by Caltex with a silver barrel with large black lettering and a horizontal red band along the centre of the barrel similar to the Ammonia tank wagons these were later re-branded for Texaco with similar style of lettering and the red banding moved to the solebars.

These would be a challenge to paint and letter as years Caltex lettering and band down the centre of the barrel was clearly visiblewhile in fuel train use beneath the Texaco branding.

There may be some photos of these wagons around as many of thee older tank wagons were stored of the Dardanell Sidings until East Wall yard was re-modelled in the early 2000s.

John

Some curveball questions Alan

John, could I ask you a question about flat bottom track. As I understood it, mainly judging from photos and what I observed from the 80s onwards, the practice of laying flat bottom track on chairs began in the 60s when CIE moved from bullhead to flat bottom rail. When the Midland laid track, it was all flat bottom and it fixed it straight to the sleepers, American style, or possibly used a small clip but no chair. Is that right? Sidings everywhere seem to have been laid with lighter flat bottom rail spiked directly to the sleepers.

 

 

The cast iron baseplate used by both CIE and the GNR with flatbottom rail may date back to the amalgamation or earlier. The railways tended to gradually upgrade its pw and spiked track was gradually updated with baseplates and fangbolts. There are photos of this type of track on lines that closed before the 1960s like the Irish North Western, Cavan & Leitrim and West Cork. Track may be bolted down or spiked directly to the sleepers and the fixings are practically invisible in 4mm scale and difficult to distinguish in photographs.

 

I'm also wondering about the pointwork. There's no sign of either a set or a joggle in that turnout. Have you any idea what the Irish railways' practice was on the subject? (For anyone else reading this, a “set” is a kink in the diverging rail of a turnout, at an angle of about 20 degrees. The switch rail sits against the set, so that the end of the blade does not stick out into the 5 foot where it would get hit by the wheels of stock running straight through the turnout. A joggle is a kink in the rail to achieve the same result. Some of the stuff you read on the subject can be contradictory or incomplete, but this is worth a look: http://www.templot.com/martweb/gs_realtrack.htm#joggle

 

Its basically impossible to form a joggle in Flatbottom rail its difficult enough to curve FB to a small radius, basically a section of the foot and web of the stock rail is ground back to allow the switch to seat properly, I have a feeling that the stock rail is no longer joggled in BH P&C work

 

Rich, I like the pictures of Clonmel, particularly Irish Rail's approach to bolting down chairs. (Sure what would we do that for?)

 

Generally a single pair of chair screws or fangbolts are all thats needed to keep everything in line on low traffic low speed lines like most in lines in Ireland.

 

Would both of you mind if I downloaded your track photos? I've very little on the subject myself. Also, would you have any pictures of the through timbering on a crossover between two running lines?

 

John, I note your practice of just letting the solder flow into a well fluxed joint using capillary action. I may give that a try. I was just following old metalwork rules which say, flux, tin and sweat together. (Tinning, for anyone reading this and scratching their heads, is putting a small bit of solder onto the 2 surfaces to be joined, and sweating is heating the metal until the solder that's already been applied melts.)

 

 

Its probably easier not to tin, there is a real risk of de-laminating pcb sleepers due to excessive heat, If you really want a challenge try the Brassmasters 75lb FB baseplates http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/track_details.htm

 

3 things to note about bullhead rail, for anyone interested. 1, the chunkier part goes at the top, because this is the part that gets worn down by the wheels - so the rail always looks like it's upside down. 2, the metal clips in Rich's picture are probably post 1960, before that wooden 'keys' were used to hold the rail in place. C&L and P4 Track Co chairs have wooden keys. 3, the GNR used 3 bolt chairs, while the GSWR / GSR / CIE used a 4 bolt pattern (though I suspect used panels from both could be relaid anywhere on the system after 1958 – I think I've seen photos of the sidings at Limerick Junction laid with GNR bullhead panels, and possibly of Drogheda-Navan with GSR panels.)

 

Alan

 

The PW engineers tnd to be great horders and used to save good quality material for possible re-use around the network, cahair and baaseplates ted to outlive rail by a considerable margin. IE did a very nice job in relaying a section of the DSER main line in the 1990s using heavy FB rail laid on GNR baseplates with Elastic Spikes on wooden sleepers classical 1950s state of the art technology .

 

Have fun

 

John

I'm 28 and have been interested in railway modelling since the age of four!!

 

The biggest problem I find is not funding but space. I've loads of models, just no place to put a layout.

 

If you are young and want a decent job in this country you have to uproot to Dublin away from family and friends and pay an extortionate amount of rent for a tiny little apartment that has no space for a railway and the neighbours complain if you do anything "weird". Playing the piano between 6 and 8pm is apparently disturbing noise.

 

I was actually going to start building t-gauge Irish models before I lost my job recently, just so I could actually have some models in my apartment.

 

Looks like I'm going to have to live in Dubland again for my next job too .

Despite being a Dub, I have been there a number of times myself moved to the UK in the 1980s when there was no work to be had in Dublin, returned 10 years later when there was no work in the UK, moved continents 10 years later this time when I simply wanted a change and did not want to get caught out in the next recession.

The first move was fine a new adventure, the move back to Ireland was more difficult as you simply cannot pick up where you had left offbesides each time there are a lot more models to move.

Much the same with lack of space exen when I got my own place, probably the best approach is to join a club get inolved in working on a layout and meet people for whom wierd is normal.

John

I'd imagine railcar enthusiasts are rare enough

Certainly not one here either

For those that consider railcars too exciting there is always the BRUT station trolley SIG in the UK http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/9-loads/11-truck.htm

I think the whole attitude to model railways and modelling has improved since I was growing up at a time railways were considered to be finished and there was something distinctly odd about teenagers let alone grown men playing with train sets.

These days I find work colleagues a lot more open about their hobbies these days its not considered odd for someone to support the All-Blacks, The Warriors and be involved in some or several forms of modelling or collecting. Mind you each society has its own hang ups despite the relative success of the All Whites soccer players are considered a bit odd.

Going on to the Alpha generation our two and half year old daughter has mastered the remote control for her own battery powered model train and there is hell to play if she does not get to send off the 17:30 when I get home from work in the evening.

John

I think CIE would have incurred a financial penalty for cancelling the order as the engine equipment had already been built, so they decided to swallow it and store the engines for future use.

I may be wrong, but were'nt they stored in Dalkey for a while?

There was a piece on the whole fiasco in a paper by Dan Renihan in one of the IRRS Journals during the late 70 early 80s. Basically the Government forced CIE to cancel the order when the company was nationalised, but accepted the engines and possibly electrical equipment and stored them to avoid financial penalties.

The B101s were probably a superior locomotive in terms of engine, electrical system, braking and running gear compared to the Yanks and Bo Bos, their low power to weight ratio compared with the GM locos was probably an advantage in working heavy freight and passenger trains in poor rail conditions.

CIE seem to have got it right in combining the excellent Swiss Sulzer engine and Metrovick electrical system in both its original Inchacore built and the Birmingham Sulzers.

Most of the problems with the BR Sulzer Type 2s were down to problems with the Brush & GEC traction motors which were not really suitable for freight locomotives.

The Metrovick electrical system was considered very good the 001 had no problems in hauling heavy freights up the gullet from Islandbridge Junction or out of Cork, while the 121,141 & 071 classes are considered slippy, the less said about the suitability of the GM bogie for passenger work the better

They originally seem to have been worked hard on Top Link Passenger duties on the Cork Line and Rosslare-Cork Boat trains, then concentrated around Waterford and Limerick on freight duties as the B141s took over main line passenger links. I vaguely remember seeing Black B101s in the early 70s on Heuston-North Wall transfer freights and on parcel trains at Dunlaoire.

I think there is a more positive attitude to the hobby and modelling these days, its more acceptable for teenagers and grow men to be playing with model cars, trains and planes than when I was growing up

Our two and a half year old daughter operates the remote control for her our own battery powered train and sends of the 17:30 departure most eveningings otherwise there is hell to pay

John