CIE flat wagon liveries

[west_clare_wanderer]

Hi all. 

Another stupid question from a newcomer... 

I'm going to order a pack of IRM flat wagons. The options are for the grey 'livery' or the brown one. In common with H vans, I'm presuming the brown one is the later one, introduced in the (mid?) 1970s? Whereas grey would cover both the 1960s and 1970s (flying snails and Supertrain).

Sorry for asking such basic questions. My research would suggest the above, but flats aren't as easily found in photos, and given there is very little wagon to paint, it's sometimes difficult to see whether a wagon is grey or brown! 

Apologies for taking up people's time, and many thanks in advance for any advice you can provide. 

Take care, 

David 

[Mol_PMB]

No questions are stupid - please keep asking!

You're generally correct - the brown livery was introduced in 1970 but took many years to spread across the whole fleet. Unfitted freight trains (for revenue-earning purposes) ceased in the late 1970s, and there were still plenty of grey wagons around then.

The LB flat wagons as modelled by IRM were a slightly special case. 

The grey ones represent those wagons built as flats, representing the late 1950s onwards. IRM haven't applied snails or roundels but a few of these wagons did have them.

Between 1962 and 1975, over 1500 new vacuum-braked flat wagons were built: longer, faster, better load capacity than the old LB flat wagons. It is likely that most of the old grey LB flats were demoted to PW use around this time, though some may have survived in revenue service.

The brown ones are physically slightly different - look at the position of the stanchions and the number series - and they represent covered vans which were cut down to flats in 1973, for use by the PW department. They lasted into the early 1980s in PW service - there was a lot of engineering work going on associated with the DART construction and speed upgrades on the Cork main line, so unfitted wagons remained in use later with the PW department.

 

[west_clare_wanderer]

Hi Mol,

6 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

No questions are stupid...

Well, I'm sure some questions are more stupid than others! But seriously though, I don't want to annoy anyone. Folks have been so helpful here since I finally stuck my head above the parapet and started posting. Time is precious, and to share it is very kind. 

7 hours ago, Mol_PMB said:

You're generally correct - the brown livery was introduced in 1970 but took many years to spread across the whole fleet. Unfitted freight trains (for revenue-earning purposes) ceased in the late 1970s, and there were still plenty of grey wagons around then.

The LB flat wagons as modelled by IRM were a slightly special case. 

The grey ones represent those wagons built as flats, representing the late 1950s onwards. IRM haven't applied snails or roundels but a few of these wagons did have them.

Between 1962 and 1975, over 1500 new vacuum-braked flat wagons were built: longer, faster, better load capacity than the old LB flat wagons. It is likely that most of the old grey LB flats were demoted to PW use around this time, though some may have survived in revenue service.

The brown ones are physically slightly different - look at the position of the stanchions and the number series - and they represent covered vans which were cut down to flats in 1973, for use by the PW department. They lasted into the early 1980s in PW service - there was a lot of engineering work going on associated with the DART construction and speed upgrades on the Cork main line, so unfitted wagons remained in use later with the PW department.

 

Thank you ever so much for such an comprehensive and informative reply. I'm extreme grateful. 

The more I'm learning, the less I'm getting worried about grey/brown, snail/roundal in my chosen period. I often forget that it would take years to repaint wagons (if they ever did so). 

I really appreciate that explanation about the different types of flat wagons. I had noticed a difference, your reply sets out the reason brilliantly.  

Thank you so much again!

David 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Some late 1960s and early 1970s inspiration:

From Brian Flannigan on Flickr:

Two from Jonathan Allen on Flickr:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/30337458288

https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49702131002

 

There are plenty more on the IRRS Flickr archive including some in PW service.

 

[jhb171achill]

13 hours ago, west_clare_wanderer said:

Hi all. 

Another stupid question from a newcomer... 

I'm going to order a pack of IRM flat wagons. The options are for the grey 'livery' or the brown one. In common with H vans, I'm presuming the brown one is the later one, introduced in the (mid?) 1970s? Whereas grey would cover both the 1960s and 1970s (flying snails and Supertrain).

Sorry for asking such basic questions. My research would suggest the above, but flats aren't as easily found in photos, and given there is very little wagon to paint, it's sometimes difficult to see whether a wagon is grey or brown! 

Apologies for taking up people's time, and many thanks in advance for any advice you can provide. 

Take care, 

David 

Not remotely a stupid question - a very valid one. 

Everything was grey until 1970, and after that the brown livery appeared.

However, flat wagons of this type were on their way out by then, so not all that many got the brown livery - a good lot of them, possibly an actual majority, saw out their days in grey. So a 1970-1977 layout can legitimately have both grey and brown.

[west_clare_wanderer]

On 24/5/2025 at 9:03 PM, jhb171achill said:

Everything was grey until 1970, and after that the brown livery appeared.

However, flat wagons of this type were on their way out by then, so not all that many got the brown livery - a good lot of them, possibly an actual majority, saw out their days in grey. So a 1970-1977 layout can legitimately have both grey and brown.

 

Just placed a big order for wagons with IRM/Accurascale (gulp!!), in order to kickstart my late '60s/early '70s layout.  @Mol_PMB and @jhb171achill - thanks again for all your help guys. Your advice has been invaluable to a number of my questions.