Mol_PMB

The latest uploads to the IRRS Flickr albums include a nice selection of 'silver' carriages, as follows: An entire silver train, as far as we can see. Very unusual: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585500921 A clean heating van in traffic: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585692764 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585916420 Some brand new open standards, silver all over, in these trains: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585620123 The last carriage in this train is one of the silver composites, again with a silver roof. This didn't last long: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585500241 Maybe the same here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585489846 The TPOs were the last carriages to enter traffic in silver, and these photos show that the bogies or axleguards were black, rather than silver as on the earlier vehicles. Also the battery boxes, buffers etc. The roofs were initially all silver, but not for long: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585500716 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585620023 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585620243 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585915920 The 800s could haul trains including the silver open standards: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585490226 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585489331 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55584460017

Haha! I haven't looked at the GNR sets in so much detail. One panelled carriage received 'the other place' blue and cream, but I don't think it ever ran in a railcar set. The carriage registers indicate that different through-wiring was required for the GNR and CIE AEC sets. The BUT sets were different again, and needed the UIC-style rubber tube gangways too. I think that once the UTA took over the GNR sets they modified the control system to permit more flexibility of train formations - the UTA was at the forefront of this with the MEDs and was later copied by British Railways.

A few more IRRS photo links for this type of ventilated van (though with different door variants in some cases): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499891792 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508810229 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509033323 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508917715 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511374431 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500932193 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508714243 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419881040 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/54511224114

The P O'Cuimin paper is indeed very useful! One key thing I took from it is that Atock had a policy of renewing rolling stock every 20 years. Atock was in charge at the MGWR from 1872 to 1900. 'Renewal' was partly an accounting term, i.e. new rolling stock was built to replace old stock, and often the new vehicle would take the old one's number. Depending on traffic needs, cattle wagons might be renewed as covered vans, or vice versa, but this didn't represent a conversion. Renewed vehicles were built new to current designs, but might re-use ironwork from older wagons if it was suitable. Additions to stock were also made, either from outside contractors or built at Broadstone. What this means is that covered vans to the 1870s drawings in the HMRS archives would have ceased to exist by 1900. They would have been replaced with 'renewed' or new-build vans to updated designs (possibly re-using some older ironwork). Although the 20-year renewal interval wasn't rigidly adhered to after Atock's time, a lot of the pre-1900 vehicles seem to have been scrapped in the 1930s. However, some survived longer and the P O'Cuimin paper shows a nice photo of 1895-built 2592M in service in 1962. P O'Cuimin lists 5 main variants of covered vans, dating from 1872, 1891, 1893, 1900 and circa 1912 (additionally there were the 1920s IRCH standard vans which were very different in character). Prior to 1893, the length over headstocks was 13'6" and from 1893 this was increased to 14'2". The Guinness wagons were non-standard and a foot longer. Over the years there were other changes to both the body style and the ironwork (brake gear, axleboxes, buffers and drawgear etc). I won't repeat the whole article here, but the external diagonal rib was introduced in 1912.

I'll present a list and some more photos in my IRRS talk in November. I have identified a total of 29 vehicles of pre-CIE stock that were through-wired (and piped) for CIE AEC railcar use, ranging from tea car 343 of 1898 to the Drumm trains C&D.

One day I'll come back and finish off this thread. Research is still turning up new information, and I'm delighted to say that I finally have an image of a Cravens in an AEC set. Thanks to Ciaran's latest upload to the IRRS Flickr archive, this photo was taken by Dave Murray in May 1966 and is the Down 18.50 Galway/Mayo "Cu na Mara" service. DMY_CIE_AEC_2602_Reeves_m1960s | [Photographer: David Murray… | Flickr The Cravens (in the middle of the train) is a bit distant, but Ciaran has very kindly sent me a higher-resolution scan of that part of the image, which proves it is a Cravens coach. This is also a good one for intermediates and tail traffic, with no fewer than three catering cars in the leading set! The nearest one is either 841 or 843 (I'm still trying to confirm which), then a standard CIE buffet, then 838. There's also a bogie brake third as tail traffic, not a through-wired type. Again, Ciaran has kindly sent me a higher-resolution scan of this. DMY_CIE_AEC_Enfield_Sept_1955 | [Photographer: David Murray]… | Flickr The ancient clerestory tea car 343 makes an appearance here: DMY_CIE_AEC_2606_Westland_Row_May_1952 | [Photographer: Davi… | Flickr Finally for now and a little off-topic, an ex-GNR (now UTA) set on the GSWR, forming a special to the Curragh: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585675434 GNR AEC sets did run off their home network on excursions; one set reached Killarney in 1952.

The latest upload of IRRS Flickr photos from Ciaran includes some more images of these coaches, mostly from the 1950s. Here are the links for those of you who are IRRS members. Not brilliant photos but they give an idea of the sort of trains these were used in during the 1950s. Open third: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55584463897 (1st coach in train) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55584459187 (3rd coach in train) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585490226 (partly visible behind the tender) Lavatory open third: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585905540 (1st coach in train) Lavatory open third and brake third (either side of the signal): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585680629 Tea car, I think 843, in railcar set: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585500631 Full brake / luggage / parcel van variants (in all cases, first vehicle behind loco): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585692729 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585608923 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585488916 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585680759 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585608618 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585906140 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55584459972 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55584459002 I have done artwork for the brake third, and could do for the different variants of full brake, but they're not a priority for me at present.

Would the UTA ones have headed south? Or were the bogie vans preferred for pigeons etc?

You're on safe ground - the BCDR is probably the line I know the least about! Though I learnt a bit more walking round the triangle at Downpatrick a few weeks ago.

Excellent - I look forward to it!

On the IRRS Flickr, this is a super photo of a brand new Park Royal, complete with green ends and green roof. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/55585692839 When I get a chance to do some modelling again, I'll modify and repaint one like this.

Lots of ‘Queens’ with interesting train formations including ‘silver’ laminates… Some more super AEC railcar shots. Tons of other fascinating photos. I will try to find time to work through them properly and add to my spreadsheets and threads.

Ciaran has just uploaded around 800 new photos

A couple more snippets from my confuser... Type D in 1950, in the '2 small snails' livery: Type E on the left margin: Type A in 1950: Types C and D : https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510248182/ I also note that the HMRS drawings include several early MGWR vans, but most of the thumbnails aren't visible online. It's possible that some of them relate to the other variants I've identified from photos. https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-18145--covered-goods---8ft-w-b.html Subject Type Goods Van Subject Subdivision Van - Covered Goods (inc End Loading) Drawing Type General Arrangement Company Midland Great Western Railway Date 16 Jul 1872 Original Company Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company Limited (Late J Wright & Sons) Original Drawing Number 1280 Collection Name Metropolitan Cammell Source Identity Roll 0351 Notes Scale 1ins : 1ft Digital Image Availabile No https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-18148-covered-goods-8ft-6ins-w-b.html Subject Type Goods Van Subject Subdivision Van - Covered Goods (inc End Loading) Drawing Type General Arrangement Company Midland Great Western Railway Date 31 May 1870 Original Company Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company Limited (Late J Wright & Sons) Original Drawing Number 1275 Collection Name Metropolitan Cammell Source Identity Roll 0351 Notes Scale 1½ins : 1ft Digital Image Availabile No https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-18149--covered-goods---8ft-w-b---14ft-o-b.html Subject Type Goods Van Subject Subdivision Van - Covered Goods (inc End Loading) Drawing Type General Arrangement Company Midland Great Western Railway Date 9 Nov 1875 Original Company Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company Limited (Late J Wright & Sons) Original Drawing Number 1273 Collection Name Metropolitan Cammell Source Identity Roll 0351 Notes Scale 1ins : 1ft Digital Image Availabile No https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-22835-covered-goods-8ft-w-b-14ft-2ins-o-b.html Subject Type Goods Van Subject Subdivision Van - Covered Goods (inc End Loading) Drawing Type General Arrangement Company Midland Great Western Railway Date 15 Mar 1895 Original Drawing Number 8082 Collection Name Metropolitan Cammell Source Identity Roll 0007 Notes Scale 1ins : 1ft Digital Image Availabile Yes (This is the one with a thumbnail visible) https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-18140-covered-goods-8ft-w-b.html Subject Type Goods Van Subject Subdivision Van - Covered Goods (inc End Loading) Drawing Type General Arrangement Company Midland Great Western Railway Date 11 Oct 1870 Original Company Metropolitan Railway Carriage & Wagon Company Limited (Late J Wright & Sons) Original Drawing Number 1286 Collection Name Metropolitan Cammell Source Identity Roll 0351 Notes Scale 1ins : 1ft Digital Image Availabile No

Some more info and photo links/refs here...