Ulster Railway Liveries

[Jawfin]

Howdy

 

Does anyone know what livery the Ulster Railway used on their coaches, No. 33 in particular?

And did they use black locos? I'm pretty sure they did, but I just want to be sure.

[jhb171achill]

Hello Jawfin

 

Concise information on this doesn't appear to be available. I have nothing among an otherwise extensive amount of livery details. What I do know is that it is very likely that first class, second class, and third class carriages were likely to have been different colours, as many passengers were illiterate. The Dublin & Kingstown Railway painted third class green, and firsts and seconds were dark red and blue - not sure which way round. The Waterford & Tramore painted their firsts and seconds in dark red or blue too, but the other way round!

 

Locomotives may well have been black, but if not, probably green.

 

I'll keep my eye open for further information, but that's the best I can do for the time being!

 

A UR-based layout would be fascinating!

[Jawfin]

Thanks a lot, very interesting

I've asked around at Downpatrick, and everyone I've asked so far doesn't know either - a shame that such a railway has been lost in history already

 

And I'm not making a model, may I add A friend and I were discussing what would be best in our opinion to go into the workshop at Downpatrick after 69 is finished - we were thinking about 33, then came to this livery conundrum.

[minister_for_hardship]

Are there any flakes of old paint on 33?

[jhb171achill]

Minister / Jawfin

 

I had that very issue at Downpatrick some years ago when discussing livery policy in general. Thankfully, with very few exceptions it is DCDR's policy to have accurate liveries on things; if you broaden the net wide you often find that other museums don't.

 

There is nothing to see on No. 33 which indicates what livery it had. Certainly, it's later life was in GNR ownership, so it would have spent the greater part of it's working life in GNR polished wood / brown, and maybe that's appropriate given that it is now in ex-GNR condition, as opposed to its original condition. There is some evidence to suggest that it was altered somewhat during its life.

 

The interior is likely to have been like the 1873 Isle of Man "Director's Saloon" which is now in Port Erin Museum. This vehicle started life as a four wheeler but was placed on a bogie underframe along with another four wheeled saloon to make the special coach for the island's Governor through the years. It will certainly have had this layout - that is, seats round the edges sitting against the sides, not facing direction of travel.

 

PM me or email me if you would like to discuss in detail.

 

I remain unsure of where my predecessors in DCDR managed to trace the number... I do seem to recall that is was taken to be No. 30 at one stage, though I suppose it may not matter now.

 

In its original state, I can't help feeling it may have been either a dark blue (between navy and royal blue) or a dark maroon. There is a very old coach in the NRM which appears to be a shade of green which is almost black. As to lining and lettering, leave this with me - I have one resource which might give some clues if I go through it in detail, but with no index this will take time.

 

Some early coaches, as I mentioned before, were "colour-coded"for the benefit of the "great unwashed"! But a coach such as this would have been reserved for the use of the "gentry". Occasionally in those days, the livery of such vehicles followed contemporary stage coach design, thus deep maroons or even black lined in gold.

 

Having just done a good bit of delving in that other-worldly chaos masquerading as my study, I find nothing beyond the above on Ulster Railway liveries. However, I have one further idea; if it produces anything I will post here.

Edited March 28, 2014 by jhb171achill

[minister_for_hardship]

There is nothing to see on No. 33 which indicates what livery it had. Certainly, it's later life was in GNR ownership, so it would have spent the greater part of it's working life in GNR polished wood / brown, and maybe that's appropriate given that it is now in ex-GNR condition, as opposed to its original condition. There is some evidence to suggest that it was altered somewhat during its life.

 

I would be inclined to think restoring it to its GNR state would be more appropriate, instead of guessing what liveries it may have carried without some sort of an example or illustration to work from.

[jhb171achill]

I would agree, Minister.

 

While an owner of an old vehicle can paint it any colour they like; a wrongly painted artefact can always be changed when suitable info becomes available, and quality info is not always available, and nor is everyone that interested in a colour; it pains me to see something wrongly painted because it becomes de facto "wisdom" that it actually did look as it does now, when in use.

 

There are examples of things in all three of the 5ft 3 preservation locations which have been wrongly painted. In some cases (RPSI coaches) this is deliberate. The Dublin blue livery was specifical designed to differentiate the Society's Cravens from IE ones, or other IE stock. The Whitehead ones were meant to have a livery which was not unlike UTA, but not actual UTA. In both cases that works well. The former dining car No. 87 at Whitehead spent its entire life in UTA green until 1967, having been built several years post-NCC, but it looks well turned out in NCC maroon; the coach is of NCC design though a UTA coach.

 

But restored goods stock is another thing entirely, with but a single example that I can think of (the Donegal open wagon in Cultra) being correct. Just about everything in Cultra which has been painted there, rather than outside, is not correct.

 

Thus, in painting a very old carriage, the greatest effort should be made (in my opinion) to get it right. But in the case if this vehicle, and (for example) the Castlederg carriage in Cultra, it has to be recognised that exact information may not exist.

 

While this discussion relates to a full size vehicle for restoration, it should equally be of interest to modellers.

Edited March 28, 2014 by jhb171achill

[Jawfin]

Thanks very much - sorry I haven't replied recently!

 

I've asked around a bit more at Downpatrick, and have been told that the UR livery would have looked something like this:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/v/t35.0-12/10172349_10152695236854838_1246215306_o.jpg?oh=8cb1e69a83bbd8f9d570ac095333e144&oe=533E41BF&__gda__=1396587867_4dde7ba7b079eaab85ada06c354f8d48

 

Not as good as I had hoped, but not as bad as it could be - black, or certainly blue, sounded better The Great Northern alternative, which wouldn't be my favourite livery, would probably be best - it would match the coach in its most recent service condition, as you said, and it would guarantee that it would be prototypical. It would be a shame to overhaul (Err, if we ever get the money... ) such a historically important coach and get it wrong. Better safe than sorry etc...

 

Would it have remained a first class coach for hire under GNR?

I would think that it would have had a toilet, gas lighting, those sort of luxuries? Anything else?

[jhb171achill]

It would have been unlikely to have had a toilet when first built, but it appears to have been rebuilt, probably with one, later. Gas lighting indeed.

 

It's not possible at this stage to ascertain whether it would have ended its days as a first. It very likely did remain 1st, but we couldn't be certain.

 

It appears to have been withdrawn about 110 years ago, thus unless it had spent many years in store, would have probably worn GNR livery.

 

Very careful analysis of oldest panels on it may reveal livery. PM me about next time you're in Downpatrick and if I am up north and free I will join you and we can examine it in detail.

[jhb171achill]

I doubt if it carried a livery like that. Coloured upper panels like that were not the norm in those days. It might have had some panels picked out in a lighter shade, but almost certainly not a broad "band" of lighter colour.

 

I agree with you that as far as possible, accuracy is far more important than what some of us might think "looks well" in this day and age.....

[Jawfin]

I doubt if it carried a livery like that. Coloured upper panels like that were not the norm in those days. It might have had some panels picked out in a lighter shade, but almost certainly not a broad "band" of lighter colour.

 

I agree with you that as far as possible, accuracy is far more important than what some of us might think "looks well" in this day and age.....

 

Good-ish news about the livery

 

I wonder how badly that Brown Van under frame will have to be butchered for it..? At least we'll probably have a spare one after (*ahem* ) the BCDR van is done

 

How, "badly," rebuilt would it be? I mean, as in light rebuild, surely not a 47M butchering job?

Edited April 9, 2014 by Jawfin

[jhb171achill]

It was not substantially rebuilt; in fact, its alterations may all have been internal. I will take a run to Downpatrick some time soon and see what can be discerned. It would be good to lay this one definitively to rest.

 

As fas as the Brown Van frame is concerned, it could not be less like what ran with it. For a start, the chassis would have been all wooden, and secondly, it is not known for certain whether (or when) it was four or six wheeled.

 

That said, a brown van frame in this day and age is probably good enough for the time being. It changes a potentially seriously expensive restoration job, to a moderately affordable one. Using an NCC frame now does not preclude getting a proper frame made in the future.