2996 Victor

A quick question about wagons - are there any drawings of the MGWR's ballast wagons from the pre-1900-1905 period available? Perhaps in the Broadstone Series?

I've made a start on some open box wagons, which will probably be finished as loco coal wagons - I'll start up a workbench thread to document my muddling progress!

With kind regards,

Mark

7 hours ago, Mayner said:

There were plans at different stages to extend the Ballaghaderreen branch to Ballyhaunis on the Mayo Line which probabably explains the back-to front track layout.

A number of MGWR branch line terminals besides Ballaghadrerreen had single road engine sheds including Cavan, Clara, Kingscourt and Killeshandra . 

There are several good quality photos of Midland section branch line terminals, loco sheds and trains in "Great Southern Railways" an Irish Railway Pictorial by Donal Murray published by Ian Allen 2006.

Hi John,

Many thanks for this - that would explain the reasoning behind the layout at Ballaghaderreen. The proposed extensions aren't mentioned in the section of Shepherd's book devoted to the branch, although they may be elsewhere - I haven't read it all yet!

With kind regards,

Mark

On 3/4/2020 at 4:32 AM, Mayner said:

I don't appear to have posted photos of the assembled & painted MGWR vans. Still have not gotten round to lettering or fitting couplers over 6 years later.

Train of fish vans.

The original prototype Fish/Meat Van

Dogbox end of MGWR Horse Box

Grooms compartment end.

Underframe showing brake pull rods.

The vans live in a display cabinet but have got quite dusty.

Superb work, John, I love these vehicles! And your tutorial has made me think even I could made a reasonable job of an etched brass kit!

With kind regards,

Mark

Well, the road to the hot place is paved with good intentions, so they say. I've not made a start on my wagons today as intended, although I've made some notes and jotted down the leading dimensions ready for when I do.

Instead, I've been sat in the garden with my good lady enjoying the fine weather, and we're now enjoying an early evening snifter al fresco, Jameson's for me!

Have a good evening, everyone!

With kind regards,

Mark

Intrigued by the photograph of Ballaghaderreen on page 35 of Shepherd, and particularly the reference in the caption to the livestock bank and headshunt, I had a look at the 25 inch maps on GeoHive,. It was certainly a fascinating layout, you could almost say that in some ways it was "back-to-front", and although it was very long, far too long for the space I've got available, it's got some features that I may try to weave into my fiction.

Which leads me to another question for those who know: although Ballaghaderreen engine shed was a single road affair, how many of the MGWR's branches had two road engine sheds? From what I can make out, many seem to have been two road sheds, so were they allocated two locos each? Unlikely, I would have thought?

Thanks as always for any info!

Kind regards,

Mark

Before I set off on my first builds, which I'm planning to put on a Workbench thread, I thought I'd have a bit of fun with some number crunching! Using the figures in Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, I've come up with this amusing little table:

MGWR Goods Rolling Stock, 1900.xlsx

Its an Excel spreadsheet, so if anyone wants to generate similar figures for other years, simply plug in the vehicle numbers for the appropriate year and the formulae should do the rest!

Kind regards,

Mark

On thinking about it, here's a PDF for those who may not have Excel:

MGWR Goods Rolling Stock, 1900.pdf

19 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

There's a guy on RM web rue-d-etropal who also has a Shapeways shop Recreation 21 and he does MGW 6whl Lav 1st and 6whl all 3rd both @ $69.60 coaches seem to be his forte as he also does several Ashbury designs for other railways. 

   Who is gong too be first to do a Clayton railcar!? thats there as well.  14 pages of stuff!

 All his models are in White Natural versatile plastic. Anyone got experience of this medium? Just asking before I  flash the cash!

Hi Mike,

there's been a bit of a discussion on this thread Shapeways MGWR coaches 00 scale. Unfortunately, my own experience hasn't been encouraging, as the items I bought (a couple of years ago admittedly) weren't accurate for dimensions to published drawings and the WNVP material is poor at reproducing fine details, such that although he does a lot of interesting stuff I've not forked out for anything else.

With kind regards,

Mark

49 minutes ago, murrayec said:

They scale 6'-9'' to 7' using the Expo Gauge OO Rule.

Eoin

Many thanks, Eoin, I'm hoping to make a start on a wagon or two over the weekend, and without the W-irons I need to be able to gauge the amount of clear space between the model solebars!

With kind regards,

Mark

Hi all,

According to Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, the MGWR's wagons were 6'-9" between their solebars. Can anyone advise what the Studio Scale Models etched W-irons measure over their outside faces?

Many thanks for any advice!

Kind regards,

Mark

40 minutes ago, Jack O'Brien said:

I believe someone called Sparkshot Custom Creations on shape ways sells 3d prints of the furness railway k2. Maybe one of them might work for a convertion?

Hi Jack,

many thanks for your post. Sparkshot Custom Creations (aka Knuckles over on RMWeb) has a very good reputation for quality, although I've not yet ordered any of his products.

With kind regards,

Mark

I think there were seven issues of RailModel Digest in total, a "preview" issue and then six numbered issues. I've had mine from new, tried to sell them several times but now glad I didn't manage to! They're well worth tracking down.

David Malone's articles are full of useful information, but pics of Cliffony are thin on the ground, although there is a spread of superb colour shots in one of the issues.

With kind regards,

Mark

16 minutes ago, KMCE said:

Hello Mark,

I'm working in 21mm and picked up my gauges from the Scalefour society:

They also do compensated W-Irons, however I find the SSM units are much better. plus the SSM etch includes brake components.

They do rivet & ply system for track.  Pre-driilled sleepers & rivets are also available.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Ken

Hi Ken,

Many thanks for your post.

I've been in touch with Des at SSM about his W-iron and axleguard etches, plus a couple of kits! Great to hear that the SSM items are good!

I saw that gauges are available from the Scalefour Society, but as a member of the EM Gauge Society, I don't really want to join the S4 as well! However, I've been advised to contact Jeremy Suter to see if he can help.

Thanks again and kind regards,

Mark

6 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

A road bridge over a cutting was my (unoriginal) way of dealing it with it in the past, and also in the forthcoming "Dugort Harbour" a similar theme, a tunnel mouth in a cutting....

I had been thinking about a small diorama-type thing in the future, too, based on a small wayside station alongside a road, a la Courtmacsherry, Castlegregory or Arigna branch. At one end the road would rise up and turn over the railway on a bridge, but I thought at the other end if the line disappeared among trees - any thoughts on that, anyone? At each end, of course, a small fiddle yard.

I'll be discussing this with Baseboard Dave at some stage soon.....

How about a level crossing with a keeper's cottage on the fiddle yard side of the road in front of the track(s) to block the view of the exit. Add few trees as well and it could make an effective transition.

Kind regards,

Mark

42 minutes ago, murrayec said:

@2996 Victor

For six wheelers, Studio Scale Models do a pity good and comprehensive kit

Another link coming on and more reading for the weekend;-

 

Eoin

Thanks again, Eoin, I've got a busy weekend ahead  

Kind regards,

Mark

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

It does look grey indeed - but it could be a combination of coal dust, wear and tear, and length of time since it last saw a paint brush - the lettering suggests that wasn't yesterday!

The GSWR had black wagons entirely, as far as can be ascertained, until the late 1890s or early 1900s, and by degrees they were painted what might have been the same very dark grey as locomotives, though by 1925 the more "normal wagon grey" seems to prevail. From what I have seen the Midland was something similar.

If you look at Ernie's book on page 98, the picture of the "soft-top" No. 937 shows what is closer to the truth for pretty much all railway wagons. These things were pushed and battered about - they were basically boxes on wheels, never taken care of like locomotives and carriages. Look at this wagon and you'll see that the freshest paintwork, such as it is, just under roof level, seems way darker. On the framing, it is battered and faded to show bare wood in many places, and clearly very faded. When you get down to chassis level, it's just a jumble of dirt and brake dust.

In all reality, to make a goods train look realistic, very heavy weathering to the point of almost obliterating the actual painted livery is the most realistic finish. This, of course, means that crisp white numbers, logos and lettering looks garish; I wonder if the likes of Railtec would do sheets of "barely visible" letters and numbers....

I see what you mean about No.937, it's certainly seen life! And what an excellent subject for modelling! The apparent splitting of the solebar timber over the right-hand wheel is perhaps evidence of its hard existence.

Not sure about transfers, as you say they often seem too white, the best option is hand lettering (not sure my hand-eye co-ordination is up to that any more), or gentle use of a fibreglass pencil to abrade them.

I do like building mucky wagons!

Kind regards,

Mark

44 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Hi Mark

To answer the above, my thoughts for what they're worth...

1. Blue livery - very few. The origin of the blue livery was the idea of having a special livery for the "Tourist Express". It was never meant to an actual change of livery as such, for the whole railway. But when you dedicate a livery to one service, you need a few spares, so perhaps 15 or 20 carriages received it - though there appears to be no record. The vast majority of coaches remained brown, and the majority of locos remained green, though, and it would go without saying that this included the tank engines. I suspect that no locos were blue other than a few "A" class for the main line. There is a lovely painting showing a 2.4.0 at Ballynahinch in blue - it will actually be the cover pic on my forthcoming book on the Clifden line - but I strongly suspect that even that is artistic licence.

2. If you want to go for a branch which would have been primarily operated by the 0.6.0 "E"s, you're looking at Achill 1895-1905, and Athboy and Kingscourt mostly; probably Crossdoney - Killeshandra also. Other lines, such as Ballinrobe, Killala and Loughrea, and the Cavan branch, tended to live on a diet of tender engines due to occasionally heavier goods traffic. You have good "excuse" to have an imaginary branch run with "E"s only.

3. If you manage to get anyone to do a few credible six-wheeled carriages (a minimum would be a first or compo, a third and a brake or 3rd brake) I would definitely be in for a few.

4. If having a blue engine is a deal-breaker (and why not!), you might model a junction station with a tank engine on the branch and a blue 4.4.0 passing through on the main line.

That's my tuppence-worth...

Thanks as always for the information, Jonathan!

I suppose a branch operated under normal circumstances by an E Class could see the occasional tender loco for fair and cattle specials?

A blue engine definitely isn't a deal breaker - I did realise that they were in a definite minority, but I thought "if I can dream up an excuse," like a running in turn, "then why not!"

As far as 3D-printed carriages are concerned, I'll see what I can find out.

Looking forward to your Clifden book!

With kind regards,

Mark

40 minutes ago, murrayec said:

@2996 Victor A white circle indicates oil burner

Here is a link to my conversion of a J72 to a CIE J10 which could also do for a J26;-

Eoin

Hi Eoin,

many thanks for posting the link - the loco certainly looks the business! I'll have a thorough read through over the weekend!

Many thanks and kind regards,

Mark

I've got my books - yay! - and scanning through Ernie Shepherd's Illustrated History, on page 99 are a couple of rather interesting loco coal wagons, in particular No.1229 with it's cupboard doors withd the circle marking on them. What's the meaning of the circle? And I thought I'd read somewhere that loco coal wagons were black, while this one looks distinctly grey - any thoughts? Could be that this will be my first essay in 5'3" wagonry.....

With kind regards,

Mark

2 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

Years ago, I saw a picture of a model someone had made (or repainted!) of a (British) LNER J72 which he had tweaked a bit - I can't remember how, but it involved filing a few bits and gluing on some small bits - not a huge conversion job. Now, it was most certainly not an exact model of a Midland "E" class, but painted grey and with a big number "555" on the side, it looked convincing enough to pass at least the "three foot" rule...

The British equivalent of the K class (the Southern Railway's N class) 2.6.0s can be adapted as Irish, if you can't get an actual Bachmann K class.  Mind you, all of these entered traffic just after the MGWR had become but one part of the GSR, so reference to them as "Midland" engines is stretching things a bit, as in addition to this many spent most of their working lives nowhere near the Midland - used on Waterford - Limerick, Waterford - Cork and Dublin - Cork. Naturally they were also regulars on the Galway and Sligo lines too. So a GSR-era layout will have those. 

While I have not researched it, there may be some Bachmann or Hornby 4.4.0 which might warrant conversion to half-reasonable approximation to an "A" class 4.4.0, and a J18 goods / mixed traffic 0.6.0 could be made up by altering some "bought" 0.6.0. JM Design (John Mayne, here) is offering an extremely nice brass kit of the G2 2.4.0.

A model of a D16 4.4.0 would have me running to sell the car!

There's a model available of several South Eastern & Chatham bogies which if you shorten them a bit bear a vague resemblance to some MGWR bogies of 1900-05 type of design.

The six-wheel carriages, though, are the killer. A MGWR layout based on anything pre-1960 will need them in some shape or form. I asked questions here the other night about the Shapeways 3D prints, and replies from those who know about such thing were far from complimentary about them. Plasticard, in reality, seems the best option here. Drawings are readily available.

Hi Jonathan,

many thanks for the info - the LNER J72 conversion sounds like a reasonable first step, although whether it would be accurate enough to be acceptable in the long term would remain to be seen. I think a comparison of drawings might be in order! The K Class sound a bit too late for my period, which is a shame as anything that eases the path has got to be a good thing, hasn't it? Having had a skim through Ernie Shepherd's book, some of the 4-4-0s seem to bear a family resemblance to Furness Railway and Cambrian Railways locos of the same configuration, so perhaps there is scope there for investigation. John Mayne's kits look absolutely superb, and my concern from a personal perspective is that I'm not able to do them justice - I might have to sell a kidney and get them built by someone who knows what they're doing!

Incidentally, although this is definitely a case of "getting ahead of myself", and given that I'm planning a branch line which would have largely been worked by members the E Class, and given that this would be stretching plausibility to breaking point and beyond, which class(es) of locos would have been turned out in the blue livery? I do realise that they were types that would not have ventured down branchlines, but it seems like too good an opportunity to miss, and it could be a running-in turn 

I'm quite happy with the idea of scratchbuilding carriages, and from that point of view, a six-wheeler is less work than a bogie! I know of several folk over on RMWeb who design and print their own stuff, and some sell as well to help finance their own modelling. I wonder if it might be an option to approach them and see if they'd be prepared to take on a commission to make some really good carriages. What does everyone think?

With kind regards,

Mark

My cup runneth over!

I've been incredibly fortunate to have had so many detailed and informative responses from so many knowledgeable folks! Thank you all once again, and please keep it coming - I'd like to think of this thread as a source of reference for anyone already modelling the MGWR or wanting to.

My books arrived today, The Midland Great Western Railway of Ireland by Ernie Shepherd, Rails to Achill by Jonathan Beaumont, The Baronial Lines of the MGWR by Padraic O'Cuimin and Modelling Irish Railways by Stephen Johnson and Alan O'Rourke. If there are any others that are a "must" for my bookshelf, please do let me know!

John @Mayner has also reminded me that there was a series of articles by David Malone in the short-lived RailModel Digest magazine edited by Iain Rice an d Mike Peascod, which contains much information of use to modellers, including photographs of his excellent Cliffoney layout, locomotives and rolling stock.

Now to get back to drafting out a track plan for a layout. And where can I get a Class E.....? 

With kind regards,

Mark

13 hours ago, Mayner said:

After the opening of the Sligo & Cavan lines the Midland tended to get local companies or the government to promote or build branch lines to be worked by the Midland. These worked branches were built to meet Midland construction and civil engineering standards although some of the Western Branches were technically Light Railways they were built to the main line standards of the 1890s. The Light Railway Western branches of the Midland, Achill, Ballinrobe, Clifden, Killala and Loughrea were substantially built with realatively easy grades, substantial brick or stone buildings, usually with a standard MGWR 2 road engine shed, water tower and coal store at terminals, these branches only became light in terms of axle load, when the main lines were re-laid with heavier rails and bridges upgraded to accommodate the heavier locos of the 20th Century.

The small E Class tanks appear to have been introduced in the 1890s as a standard locomotive to work the Western lines and short feeder branches, but tender locos like the D Class 2-4-0s, L,Lm,Ln 0-6-0s worked goods and passenger trains on branch lines often working cattle specials from the big fairs in the West through to the Dublin Yards.

There are photos and details of train consists on the Ballinrobe and Loughrea branches in the "Baronial Lines" E Class 0-6-0T were generally used on passenger and mixed trains from opening until replaced by tender locos from the late 1930s onwards, there is a photo of a D Class 2-4-0 at Ballinrobe shortly before the loco was withdrawn in 1922. The branch train was usually made up of 3 6 wheel coaches a 3rd, a Composite and Brake 3rd, 2nd Class accommodation was provided on the Midland until withdrawn in 1912. Apart from the Limited Mail Stock of 1901-2 the Midland only had a handful of bogie stock on the 1900-1906 era a quartet of tri-composite coaches with a center luggage compartment introduced in the late 1890s, possibly for through working of tourist traffic from the main line to the Clifden and Achill Branches. Someone once remarked that the Midland was a Patrician rather than a Proletarian Railway with a high proportion of 1st and 2nd class Bogie stock.

Train frequency seems to have been 3-4 trains daily including a mixed in each direction on most branch lines from opening until services were cut back during the Emergency, with 1-2 trains daily on surviving lines with passenger services until closure except for a brief revival in the 60s on the Loughrea Branch and the survival of the Ballina Branch as a feeder line with main line connections. The reduction in train services from 3-4 to 1-2 trains daily in CIE days may have driven the need to replace the E  Class with more powerful tender locos as goods traffic appears to have held up although passenger traffic continued to decrease.

The L,Lm,Ln Standard Goods classes worked cattle specials from the opening of the lines, with the loco working through from the main line with the empties and working the laden train through to Liffey Junction or the North Wall Yards in Dublin for shipping, traffic from the large seasonal fair in the West could be heavy with stations like Loughrea, Ballinrobe dispatching 3-4 trains of 25-30 wagons during a large fair.

In pre-Amalgamation days goods traffic appears to have been carried mainly in the MGWR standard convertible wagons, open box wagons and timber on twin bolster wagons, hardwood timber for export to Great Britain from the large estates was am inportant traffic in the pre-WW1 era, the Midland used gravel ballast in low sided open wagons from local pits with a pit at Dunsandle on the Loughrea Branch before the introduction of hopper wagons in 1905 and a change to limestone ballast with the opening of Lecarrow Quarry on the Mayo Line.

Track was flatbottom approx 80lb yd, usually spiked down to sleepers on branch lines, with bolt fixing and sole plates at joints, half round sleepers were used on the Loughrea and Ballinrobe Branches when opened and both branches were re-laid with material cascaded from the main line during the 1920s. There may be a photo of this type of track in David Malone's  Model Rail Digest article on modelling Irish broad gauge trackwork.

A branch line from Ballinasloe to Mount Bellew or Moylough built by an independent company and worked by the Midland appears to be reasonably plausible large villages in excellent cattle country though the WLWR or GSWR would probably object.

Hi John,

many thanks once again for your incredibly detailed post, I can't thank you and everyone else enough for all the help and assistance I've received for my little project!

I was actually looking at Mount Bellew and Moylough as possible branch line terminii, so it's great to know that I'm thinking along the right lines and the little research I did into farming seemed to indicate that it was good cattle country that could conceivably support livestock and fair specials. From what you've said, it would most probably have been built by an independent company but that the station buildings would have been to standard MGWR architectural designs, or does that apply only to the locomotive sheds and facilities? I received my copy of "Baronial Lines" earlier today - it must be a rarity, given the price of it, but it certainly seems to contain a good deal of information.

Thanks also for confirming the track construction. It's pretty much what I was thinking it would be, but its great to have it confirmed. David Malone's article in RailModel Digest No.2 on trackwork does indeed mention the half-round sleepers used on the Baronial branches, and details a way to effectively model it using bamboo skewers which I want to have a go at! There's a photo at the bottom of page 82 showing a 4-4-0 at Achill, circa 1910, with half-round sleepers in the foreground, and a model representation at the top of page 84.

Thanks again and kind regards,

Mark

It's all printed to order, at least it has been whenever I've ordered anything!

With best regards,

Mark

10 minutes ago, Angus said:

A little while ago I was looking for inspiration as to what I might model to reflect my growing MGWR interest.

I spent some time in the "National inventory of Architectural Heritage"  web site.

The link below takes you to the remains of the fortress coal stage and watertower at Sligo.

https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/32006061/macdiarmada-sligo-railway-station-rathedmond-sligo-county-sligo

If you click view on a map it shows other structures of interest that remain which can be opened to reveal photos of their current state.

Alternatively in the map view you can select different map backgrounds including, for most locations, the historic 25" to the mile map which has some detail of the track formations.

You can search different areas in the mapping function you can then pan down into remaining buildings and track layouts.

I think I lost a weekend in that site but now have track plans for most of the MGWR terminal stations.

Hi Angus,

this is amazing, thank you for posting the link! There's a wealth of information to be found via that website - the availability of the 25inch maps is an incredible boon to modellers looking for track layouts. I can easily see how you could lose a significant amount of time looking at it, and I'm sure I will do the same!

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

49 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

OK, to show service levels on Midland branch lines, these are from the GSR 1926 Working Timetable. I’ve a couple of actual MGWR ones but they are not handy to access, and tell 99% the same story anyway.

These are typical not just of the Midland, but the great majority of the GSWR, DSER, CBSCR, GNR and NCC also, and the narrow gauge lines.

Trains marked “Mail” were mixed. They were only designated as such on branch lines because they connected with main line up and down, day and night mail trains at junctions.

Jonathan, these are amazing, thank you so much! They're an incredible source of information and an invaluable reference for running practices on a model.

With kind regards,

Mark

One thing that I have noticed in a number of photographs I've seen, and is visible in the photograph of Athboy with the turntable in the foreground, is that the nearest section of the platform is higher than the rest. What is the reason for this? Presumably loading of some sort?

Many thanks for any enlightenment!

With kind regards,

Mark