2996 Victor

41 minutes ago, Garfield said:

Edenderry had a two-road engine shed. It did have a turntable, however. In fact, due to limited space it was used in lieu of a set of points to allow the loco access to the loop from the platform road in order to run around its train...

Track plan here: https://bit.ly/2xVqei2

Thanks for the link - its an interesting layout and the use of the turntable as a loco release is intriguing! And space-saving..... 

Kind regards,

Mark

40 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Athboy had similar provision of locomotive facilities. 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/athboy100.com/2016/05/17/the-athboy-railway-station/amp/

Many thanks for the link, this another interesting layout, particularly the way the shed roads also fan off of the turntable.

With kind regards,

Mark

23 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, six-wheelers.

On most branchlines, not just Midland ones, you don't really see bogies appearing all that much if at all until the late 1920s / 1930s, when one bogie compo tends to replace a couple of six-wheelers; many branch trains then become one bogie with a six-wheeled brake third or the like.

Once bogie coaches started being built in the 1890s (there were but a handful before that), gradually the newer six-wheeled stock, including a few with an internal "corridor" between the few compartments, but no gangways, were "cascaded" onto secondary lines, and were more than adequate for that type of work. Thus, on a typical 10-15 mile branch, you were to see many six-wheelers lasting until the final pogrom of such branches in the late 50s and very early 60s. What was left of six-wheel stock was all concentrated in Cork, where they were used as spare excursion stock on the Youghal line until late spring 1963, after which the only six-wheelers in traffic were the handful of GSWR passenger vans I mentioned earlier.

How often would trains be mixed - an absolutely typical rural branch line service on most country lines from one end of Ireland to the other, and on both gauges, had one return passenger train per day and one mixed - all year round. On market days or summer season usually a second passenger service would run. Fair days, especially in the midlands and west, would often see an extra train plus a cattle special.

On main lines, mixed trains were less common, as goods levels warranted separate goods trains, but separate goods trains were only on some branch lines - which, as a result, would probably have the daily goods and 2-3 passenger trains, but not a mixed.

Mail was often carried on the mixed train too, as the delays at stations due to shunting trucks allowed mails to be loaded and offloaded too. For model railways set in the first twenty years of the century, mail carriage was universal, and you might have an RIC man (on a bicycle!) at the station to supervise the post office men loading and unloading mailbags in case they were "interrupted"!

So, for a model of a branch, you're looking at a set which prototypically will be three or four six-wheelers which shuttle up and won the branch two or three (maybe four) times a day, one of the return trips being the mixed. On fair days, for modelling interest, a cattle special or two - your branch terminus could be a bit like Loughrea with a huge cattle mart right next door. GAA specials, pilgrimage specials, and one not often considered by modellers - harvest emigration specials (common in the west of Ireland) could bring in a six-coach train of mixed bogies and six-wheelers.

Compared with Britain, where long-wheelbase four wheelers (like the Ratio plastic kit) were common on branch lines, Irish main line companies didn't really have four-wheelers much after 1880. The MGWR certainly had ONE as late as 1914, whose design incidentally was utterly unlike anything in Britain, but that seems a one-off. So, recourse to a 6-wheeled chassis is going to be obligatory. Even on the main lines, most trains had at least one or two well into the 1940s and earlier 50s.

Sorry for the long ramble.

Give me an idea of what area of the country you plan to model and I will post scans of the 1921 or 1926 timetables for that area.

 

Thank you as always for your reply: you are indeed the font of all knowledge and I for one would like to heartily thank you for sharing it!

Where to start? Well, for the location, I'm embarassed to say I don't really know, although I'm leaning toward the western half of the system with a branch of similar length to Loughrea or Ballinmore, possibly somewhere in the Athlone/Claremorris/Athenry triangle, where I think livestock may have been grazed?

So I think it's fair to assume (always a dangerous thing to do!) that a branch line such as I'm envisaging would have been limited to the one or two passenger and one mixed trains per day, but with with fair day and livestock specials. Thanks also for the information on the parcels/mails traffic, which probably wouldn't have occurred to me and which offer another cameo opportunity.

Coach building is also going to be a new departure for me, which I'm looking forward to! I have yet to investigate Worsley Works scratch-aid etchings - etched brass brings me out in a rash (shame about those 3D-prints - I may take the plunge and order one, although as I mentioned earlier on the other thread, I wasn't impressed with my previous purchases from the same supplier).

Thanks again for all your help and advice, its hugely appreciated!

With kind regards,

Mark

6 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

There was a midland branch that had a double row engine shed (and no it is not Achill!) you could do a model of Killina but photos are rare but I could get you the track plan but it could take about About a day to find. Plus Killina has no turn table. Yay for some by no for others.

Hi @Midland Man,

thanks you very much for your kind offer, its hugely appreciated, so if it's not too much of a pain to find, I'd be very pleased to have a copy of the Killina track plan. I'm not worried about there not being a turntable - its only something else to go wrong or break 

With kind regards,

Mark

58 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Books are always a wise investment - although frustrating to wait for at times. I’ve bought a fair amount of hard to find books from the US and it’s always nice when one lands in! 

I’d go for FB rail - click below for a classic MGWR terminus. I’ll PM you a drawing. 
 

https://www.geograph.ie/photo/3117758

Thank you for the link - that's a fabulous photograph! The track is almost exactly what I'd imagined - the uneven ballasting, worn sleepers and the accumulation of cinders in the platform road all speak volumes! I'm guessing that for my period, the sleepers would have been perhaps a little better, condition-wise, but otherwise much the same.

Thanks also for the drawing - that's the perfect vehicle for a starter project! The leading dimensions are a huge help: such a shame the Broadstone Series don't seem to have any scale on them, although the gauge is shown, of course.

With kindest regards,

Mark

44 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

Thanks for the kind comments thus far. It’s been a steep learning curve! It has taken me many years to realise two things. First of all, I prefer building trains to running them. Secondly, although imperfect, I can actually produce some work which I can live with! 

Nothing much to show off stage and it’s rather untidy right now for pics! Here’s a few old ones.  All four tracks run out into a blank area where a crude cartridge system will operate. I toyed with building a bridge to disguise the exit but it just wouldn’t have fitted with the geography and would have looked silly. So a fisherman’s hut is a simple view block. Richard Chown (the man who brought 36.75 to public notice in the 70s) argued that gaps in a backscene were less noticeable if under the visual horizon. Hence my crude tribute to Knocknarea.....

Thanks for the extra photos, it really is a splendid layout and an inspiration! I have to agree about the "hole in the backscene" - using a bridge or tunnel can work in certain circumstances, but it has been used so often in places where it looks out of context. A view block consisting of a building or buildings, trees and hedges or suitable landscaping can be so much more convincing.

There was a short article in Model Railway Journal No.267 about effectively making the fiddle yard part of the scenic section, so that although there is a view block at the transition point, the fully ballasted track continues into the "off-stage" area and suggests quite effectively that the line really does go somewhere. It's certainly something I want to try out!

With kind regards,

Mark

19 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

Just thinking of your chosen era, Mark - for a branch line setting, if that's what you're going for, the Midland (similar to the GSWR) had an almost standard set-up for a passenger train, which was:

Full brake or brake third

First Class coach

2nd / 3rd composite

...with an extra all-third added as required

- or -

Full brake or brake third

1st / 2nd composite

One or two thirds.

Many thanks, Jonathan, for the extra info - presumably these would be six-wheelers rather than bogie vehicles? And how often would the trains be mixed?

Kind regards,

Mark

I did mean to ask about your treatment at t'other end, where the scenic section goes "off-stage". Any photos in that direction?

Kindest regards,

Mark

Well, I've been fairly busy!

I've subscribed to New Irish Lines, I've been in touch with Des Sullivan at SSM to order some W-iron and brake gear etches and a couple of his MGWR Convertible wagon kits, I've emailed North Yard Models in New Zealand regarding 28mm pinpoint axles for rolling stock and I've contacted Stephen Freeman of Borg Rail about constructing points and have received some extremely reasonable quotations. This latter approach means that I only have to worry about a track gauge for plain track and a back-to-back gauge for wheels, which are proving difficult to find. On a slightly less positive note, I also contacted Ultrascale about their 21mm gauge wagon wheels and axles, but they are unable to give any timescale for production which, added to their significant cost premium, makes them a bit of a no-no.

Unfortunately, none of my books has turned up yet, which is a bit of blow. So I was wondering if anyone could advise what form of track work the MGWR would have used on a branch line, i.e. chaired bull-head, spike flat-bottomed, etc, I'd be grateful as this will help me with the decision on model trackwork. It also means I'm stuck for starting any rolling stock construction, although John @Mayner has been incredibly kind in sending me electronic copies of drawings he has, I'm currently sans printer. So here's a very cheeky request: does anyone have a dimensioned drawing of, say, an open wagon that I could cut my teeth on?

My next task is to devise some sort of track layout for my project, which is more than likely to be a fictional location. I've not decided where its going to be set, which of course would affect the traffic a fictional line would have carried and hence the track layout, so again I'm a bit stuck until my books arrive. In any case, it will need to be quite small as mentioned somewhere above, probably 6' long as a maximum.

Thanks again to everyone who has offered help and kind words of advice, please do keep your thoughts and suggestions coming!

Stay safe and stay well,

Mark

I too have had a (very) few items from this manufacturer's Shapeways page, in my case some narrow gauge War Department Light Railway bogie open wagons.

They were in the same material mentioned above, and I was most disappointed with the finish and poor quality of the surface details. Not only that, but there were fundamental errors in the basic length and width of the vehicles.

Unfortunately, this supplier has a wide range of interesting vehicles, many of which I would be interested in. But they are all the same material, and once bitten, twice shy as they say!

I would prefer to pay more for better quality prints with better materials than pay less for a poor quality print that isn't worth its purchase price, but that's just my opinion, of course.

Best regards,

Mark

3 minutes ago, Noel said:

If they were available in Shapeways FUD material (ie like Neil's 42ft container flats), I'd be tempted but WSF material not great for raised precision surface detail (toothpaste effect).

Agreed!

11 minutes ago, Galteemore said:

 

Great, @Galteemore, much appreciated!

12 hours ago, David Holman said:

my Fintonagh thread

Hi David,

Not sure why, but I can't seem to find this - is there a link?

Kind regards,

Mark

31 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Will see what I can dig out, MM - though they were all in the pre-digital age so will need to take photos of photos to post them here. Have included a picture of Jane/Shannon. She may look at home on my 5'3, but is narrow gauge, of course!

More fantastic work! Brilliant!

36 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Couldn't resist posting a pic of my 7mm Sligo van. Built in plasticard, using the Alphagraphix card kit as the drawing with their chassis underneath. All that nice, heavy, square strapping made it an ideal candidate for using micro strip.

Absolutely fabulous work!

19 hours ago, Angus said:

With the Horsebox finished I've been cracking on with the first of the meat vans.

Lessons from the horsebox build has meant the van is going quicker. Here staged beside the obligatory 5p piece.

I couldn't resist a shot with the horsebox.

I'm planning to finish the first of the meat vans in MGWR livery.

The only photo I've found of a van in this condition is the one in this link:

I would love to know what the writing on the bottom planks says. It is probably too small to reproduce in 2mm scale. I like to know all the same, any ideas out there?

Incredible work! My efforts at etched brass kits in 4mm scale have been ham-fisted disasters, so to see this kind of work in 2mm scale is mind-blowing!

Stay safe and stay well.

Best regards,

Mark

Well, here are some of my recent efforts  in most cases, I've used kit sides and ends with scratchbuilt underframes, sometimes with the kit's floor but more my own. Axleguards are MJT etches, fixed rigidly, with 3D-printed axlebox/spring assemblies. Solebar details are taken from the MJT fret. Brake gear is mostly fettled Slater's with Masokits etched brass safety loops replacing the moulded-on ones. Brake levers will be a mixture of Masokits and Bill Bedford etches.

The first two are Slater's Midland Railway Diagram D299 5-plank opens, finished as examples built by the Somerset & Dorset Joint Railway's Highbridge Works. These differed in detail from the Midland design, most notably in that the floors didn't have drop doors, and the side doors had hefty wooden doorstops. Most also had a long brake lever, but these are numbered in the early series which had standard Midland short brake levers. They're going to be loaded, hence the lack of interior detail and only the top plank is tinted:
http://

These two are Cambrian Railways vehicles, finished in that company's pre-1899 livery, although there is some likelihood that they shouldn't have the load branding. The 4-plank on the right is based on sides/ends from the Cambrian Model Rail kit, with my usual scratchbuilt underframe. The 2-plank fixed side on the left is 3D-printed, and comes from Coastline Models Shapeways page:
http://

This is a Midland Railway Diagram D305 3-plank dropside, again using Slater's sides/ends. It needs its buffers as well as its brake lever:
http://

While this one is finished as a Midland Railway Engineer's Department vehicle, built "out-of-the-box" but with added canvas spats over the axleboxes:
http://

These two are also built from Slater's Midland D305 kits, finished as S&DJR vehicles. The one on the right is almost complete and just needs its etched brake lever and Tare weight, while the one on the left is one I built about 25 years ago and is "out-of-the-box". It sports a hand-lettered livery - I could see straight in those days!
http://

Here we have another 3D-printed Cambrian Railways wagon, this time a 3-plank fixed side, again from Coastline Models. This one is actually finished, apart from weathering, of course:
http://

And finally, a string of Cambrian Railways opens, a couple of 4-plank high-sided opens and three 2-plank dropsides in various states of completion. They need their brake gear completing, a few small other details adding, the interior tinting and external weathering:
http://
http://
http://
http://

Apart from the hand-lettered S&DJR 3-plank, company livery markings are transfers. The Cambrian Railways wagons use waterslide transfers from the Welsh Railways Research Circle, all the others are HMRS pressfix. Small details like door safety chains and sheet lashing rings are present on the wagons in the first couple of photos, but need adding to all the rest.....

Hope these are of some interest! I'm looking forward to getting my teeth into some 5'3" gauge wagons soon!

Best regards,

Mark

16 minutes ago, Midland Man said:

Any pics?

Hi MM,

well, the actual layout is only as far as a plan and a try-out with some track, but I can post a few pics of the rolling stock I've built if that's of interest? Bearing in mind that it's standard gauge 

Kindest regards,

Mark

28 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Been there, done it several times before I got the Irish bug. There were two 7mmNG essays - Hawkhurst High Weald and Cranbrook Town, which featured in Railway Modeller around 20-30 years ago and after that, Loose End, 7mm standard gauge, likewise in RM. Hawkhurst was broken up, but the other two sold as going concerns, though goodness knows what happened to them. That said, was reliably informed that Loose End made it to the same barn in France that housed Gordon Gravett's Ditchling Green. Fine company indeed!

 Before that there has been Oare, an EM gauge Col Stephens might have been, based on the Davington Light Railway, near Faversham. That went to about a dozen shows in the late '80s, but never made it into print. Diverse interests? You bet.

 Still have some of my 7mm standard gauge stock, notably Jane/Shannon, the George England Wantage tank that featured in an MRJ build it in stages series of articles by Laurie Griffin. Taught me a lot that little loco and still harbour ideas of doing a small layout just for it.

 By the by,  the Wantage Town track plan scales out at just seven feet, in 7mm scale. See Iain Rice's book on Light Railways - that is only four feet in EM! Shades of Fintona? Just the small problem of making the horse tram work...

Hi David,

I know what you mean about diverse interests! At the moment, I'm finishing off a rake of Cambrian Railways opens in 4mm/EM for a small layout I have planned, while I've got wagons from several other companies, S&DJR, Midland and the like, in almost-finished condition. Besides that, I've a plan for an Ashover Light Railway inglenook in 009 and I'm also planning a model of Stogumber on the West Somerset Railway set in my usual time period, 517s and Dean Goods in green and indian red, short carriages in cream and brown, red wagons, baulk road track. I've often thought about a Col Stephens-style light railway, but I don't really have the imagination!

I'm sure I remember both High Weald and Cranbrook Town in RM, not sure about Loose End, though. But I definitely remember the MRJ articles featuring Jane/Shannon! I remember being overwhelmed by the work! I've often thought that Wantage Town would make an excellent model, and the Lower Yard, too. Horse trams - hmmm! - horses with wheels would probably look a bit odd 

Best regards,

Mark

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

The two books you are offered GET THEM as bought are very hard to get. The pic book has plans for Broadstone the MGWR HQ an has a rare pic of the engine Luna in midland green (safely the pic is in black and white) there is also pics of Celtic the midlands best engine at Athlone for a stoping train. There is tons more. As for the GSR loco book I don't have it but I don't want to buy it online as I the feel of buying a book on the disipearing streets and book shops.

MM

Thanks, MM, I'll definitely take your advice!

Best regards,

Mark

Dear All,

Although I've posted a "thank you" somewhere above, I feel I should do so again for all the additional kind words of support and all the help, advice and information that has been forthcoming. I realise that it will be of use to not just myself, but to everyone, but I can only say how overwhelmed I have been by the friendly, helpful, knowledgeable folk here on the Forum.

Thank you!

Stay safe and stay well.

With kindest regards,

Mark

44 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Wow, you look away for a couple of days and suddenly there are two full pages of gold dust on the MGW. Well done Victor/Mark for starting it and everyone else for contributing!

 Can't add much myself, despite having a J26, G2 and four six wheel coaches on my CV. The contributors above have been very helpful in me building them.

 However, David Jenkinson's Carriage Modelling Made Easy (Wild Swan) is my Bible for passenger stock, while the Alphagraphix six wheel chassis is ideal for sitting plasticard bodies on.

 My Arigna Town layout, now being rebuilt into Belmullet, was based on a protected branch to the Arigna mines from the SLNCR. Neil Sprink's history shows there were several schemes, including at least one from the Burma Road too. Given the SLNC's poverty, a joint scheme with the MGW didn't seem too far fetched. Sligo, meanwhile had trains from GSW, MGW, WL&W and SLNCR in the early 1900s.

 Indeed Belmullet supposes the above four all contributed, to bring Canadian Pacific mails from Blacksod Bay. A certain Jonathan Beaumont of this parish very much responsible for my Imagineering in his splendid book Rails to Achill, which outlines a host of proposed schemes into deepest Mayo.

 The Steam Age in Ireland, by the Lord O'Neill, is an album of commissioned paintings, which give an idea of colours, though as JHB will council, they may not be all that accurate! Finally, for now, seems there Alphagraphix portfolio, especially the Tyrconnell etched brass kits, is not as large as was, mainly because Roger is concentrating on his British light railway lines and with my surname, I can hardly criticise...

Hi David,

thank you for your kind words, all the more so given your exquisite creations! I'm eagerly following your Belmullet thread, as well as having avidly soaked up your Arigna thread over on RMWeb.

Thank you for the pointers regarding the David Jenkinson book, not one I've come across for some reason despite having many of Wild Swan's modelling-orientated titles and also The Steam Age In Ireland, bearing in mind the caveat you mention, of course! Interesting to know about the Alphagraphix chassis. Alphagraphix seem quite hard to track down, although I have an e-mail address to make first contact. Any plans for a layout based on the Good Colonel's empire?

Many thanks and very best regards,

Mark

9 hours ago, jhb171achill said:

I would recommend joining the IRRS anyway, Victor, even before you come to Ireland. Several issues a year of their "Journal" which contains records of what is "current affairs" on the railways, going back to when the Society was founded over seventy years ago. It also contains historical articles and features.

The Society published a few books of its own - picture albums - some years ago. One featured the MGWR. I have a copy  I could lend you, but I'd need it back eventually. It is possible they might have a copy if you contact them via their website.  Other writings on the Midland would be "Midland Great Western Railway" by W E (Ernie) Shepherd and the late Padraig O Cuimín's "The Baronial Lines of the MGWR" which is about the Ballinrobe and Loughrea branches. When he wrote it, the Loughrea line was still open, though not for much longer, but he brings it up to date - and a re-write of this book will be forthcoming in a couple of years which will bring it up to closure and beyond. If I may mention the thing I did on the Achill branch, "Rails to Achill", and "Rails Through Connemara" which is now with the publisher - it was due to hit the shelves sometime between now and June, but the virus has stymied that.... it'll be out when it's out!

Many articles in the IRRS deal with matters Midland, and in order to fully understand their locomotives, an absolute must, albeit not a cheap one, is "Locomotives of the GSR", the definitive "bible" of GSR / CIE steam locomotives, by Michael McMahon and Jeremy Clements.

Hi JHB,

thanks again for all your help and advice. I was "leaning" toward joining the IRRS and what you and others have said has convinced me that its the thing to do.

@leslie10646 has very kindly offered a copy of the MGWR Picture Book, which I'll be taking up, and I've found copies of Ernie Shepherd's and Padraic O'Cuimin's books, which I'm eagerly awaiting, as well as a copy of your own "Rails to Achill". I'll keep an eye out for "Connemara"! @Galteemore has very kindly provided a link to the GSR locomotives book as well.

Thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

9 hours ago, leslie10646 said:

Hi Mark

I was intrigued by the name you use - you obviously like Bagnall locos?

I can supply the IRRS (London)'s MGWR picture book at its original cover price (£2.95) plus postage (about a quid at the moment). It will be from The Syndicate's stock. FYI, The dubiously-named Syndicate is a small group of UK based Irish enthusiasts who have raised funds for Irish preservation for half a century.

If you are interested in the GSWR loco book, I am pretty certain we've got that as well - again at Cover Price (£30 - £35).

Just Message me with your interests.

Leslie

 

Hi Leslie,

many thanks for your post - I'm definitely interested in both if you have them, so I'll send you a PM shortly.

Re the Bagnalls, being a Somerset lad originally, I have a great fondness for 2994 Vulcan and 2996 Victor. These two did stalwart work on the West Somerset Railway in its' early preservation years, along with GWR Pannier Tank 6412, now on the South Devon Railway. The last time I saw Victor was around three years ago, on the Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway, while Vulcan appears to be at the Stephenson Railway Museum under a different name but bearing its original operator's running number..... Their sister was 2995 Valiant, of course, the three being named after the RAF's V-Bombers.

The three locomotives were originally used at the Port Talbot Steel Works, but when they went over to diesel traction, Vulcan and Victor were sold to Austin at Longbridge, and Valiant to the NCB until she developed firebox problems and was sold for scrap. Vulcan and Victor were sold to the West Somerset in 1973, and Victor hauled the first train when the line reopened in 1976.

Mnay thanks again and very best regards,

Mark

1 hour ago, Midland Man said:

Show like Blackrock would have a copy or two. A IRRS journal Irish railways in pictures MGWR could be available if you ask for it. If you're are ever in the Eire go to Castlerea and go to hells kitchen pub as the lab who owns it is railway mad and loves the MGWR.

I want to get in touch with the IRRS, so could definitely ask.

Visiting Eire is something that I've long wanted to do, so that sounds like a definite "must do"!

12 hours ago, Galteemore said:

https://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&cm_sp=SearchF-_-home-_-Results&an=Clements+McMahon+&tn=&kn=&isbn=
 

A rare copy has appeared. Very useful given your intentions 

That's definitely into "ouch" territory! I'll have to sell something to fund it 

Just caught up with your layout build thread, and can I say that you're creating a fabulous cameo/micro layout!

It's all outstanding - there are so many aspects of it that I love that there are too many to mention, but I'd like to say that I particularly like the goods bay line, and the quay line ending at the closed gate with the suggestion of the quay in the distance is inspired!

Please keep the photos coming!

All the best,

Mark