Mol_PMB

1 minute ago, NIRCLASS80 said:

Has anyone else noticed that the hunslet and Park Royal sections of the IRM website just say empty. Is there a problem with my browser or is everyone getting the same message?

I get the same. It’ll stop me ordering any more!

Photos from Ernie and Kevin Lane for comparison:

How the E421 differs from the E401:

• 2 feet longer overall, mostly at the front
• The bonnet does not reach right to the front
• The battery boxes are mounted either side of the frames at the front
• The fuel tank doesn't reach so far forwards (to make way for the battery boxes) but is extended back further under the cab
• The bufferbeams are deeper and festooned with rivets
• The cab has different/bigger/more windows and I think it's a bit longer too
• The bonnet is lower, has a less curved top, and there is no exhaust/silencer cowl on top
• Many small details such as lights, grilles, handrails, water fillers are different.

So although they are similar at first glance, there are very few bits of the etch artwork that would be suitable for both. However, the assembly concept could be re-used if it works well for the E401.

1 minute ago, Horsetan said:

Is the chassis the same as that used under the E421s? I wasn't quite clear on this. 

I haven't finalised the functional chassis yet, and it will have to be on a separate etch anyway as it will need thicker material. 

The wheel diameter and wheel spacing is the same for both classes, so the functional chassis could be the same.

However, the E421 is 2 feet longer overall, and the proportions are different (to improve the weight distribution), so the footplate and cosmetic sideframes would be different. Also the bodywork is different.

Let's see how the E401 works out. I could do an E421 version later if IRM don't beat me to it.

I've just paid the invoice for the body etch; should be a week or so until it arrives. I'll start a new thread for the build.

Having shown some of the glucose containers in my previous post, here are two of the IRRS archive images showing them in the original white livery:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527507088

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511556515

A few more container photos to add to the thread.

First from Roger Joanes on Flickr. Just to the left of the loco's smokebox in 1964 is a pre-ISO open box container, on a 25201 series 20' flat wagon:

Possibly something similar in bright red livery on an 'LB' flat in the background of this IRRS photo also dated 1964:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291181

This is a slightly later design of open container, ISO-compatible and suitable for palletised traffic. It seems to be in black livery with a roundel on the end, and carried on a 25436-series wagon:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511479228

From ML125R on Flickr, some interesting photos around North Wall around a decade later.

This one is undated but probably late 1970s. A selection of CIE open-top coal containers on the left, and perhaps a CIE 40' insulated container in grubby white just to the right of the loco:

Among the CIE and Bell containers, there are several Ellerman Lines boxes in this late 1970s view:

This image is dated 1984 but looks a few years earlier to me. A fine array of CIE containers of many types and sizes, as well as a lot of CTI, and a couple of MOL.

A couple of the 10' bulk glucose container here:

From Colm O'Callaghan on Flickr, some later images of ISO containers including some interesting ones.

CIE curtain-sided boxes on the left, and note the pair of Uniload 10' on an air-braked 60' flat just behind the loco:

Two photos of the open-topped coal containers; there was a variety of types of these, the older ones being 8' high and the later ones 8'6". Some may have been conversions from normal dry boxes:

Super shot of an acrylonitrile tank freshly painted in IR livery:

One of the less common grey 10' containers just behind the loco here:

From the IRRS archive, one of the early ISO CIE insulated containers:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570887180

The E401 body etch artwork is complete and I have sent it off to the etchers for a quote.

1 hour ago, jhb171achill said:

Yes, that leading one is indeed an NCC one, as is the fourth. Rare in Dublin.

You could always run them mixed with a couple of GNR designs built from kits by SSM or Worsley.

I have always had an idea like Patrick Davey's Knockloughrim - a layout based on some sort of mid-Ulster line, where NCC and GNR stock would be equally common. Or a shunting terminus type of set-up, using a Jeep, old carriages like above, and of course an AEC or MPD railcar set....

Time, though, space and money mitigate otherwise....

I'd say if IRM bring out a laminate - and I hope they do - they'd have silver, green, and black'n'tan, the latter with the initial "2" on the doors, and later without. While the last of them were still in traffic 14 years after the "supertrain" livery was introduced, none of them ever got that.

One detail livery issue with silver coaches is the numbers. On some, they were standerd "eau=de-nil" light green, but on others the numbers were RED. This is also reflected on Fry's models, but I do vaguely recall seeing a red number on something when I was a nipper. I have not yet been able to ascertain why some were red and some light green.

By the way, no silver rolling stock ever carries the flying snail. or any type of lining. Only the coach number and class number on doors. Tin vans, of course, only had the number.

Most interesting.

Some tin vans did have some other lettering, 'GUARD' on the door and the boiler vans had 'NOT TO BE ROUGH SHUNTED' on the ends, though the latter soon disappeared under the muck. Here's some nice views from Ernie:

I have also found it difficult to find colour views that are clear enough to show the lettering colour, but I've definitely seen one photo clearly with red lettering - I just can't find it now! It would be nice to know which types of vehicle had the red lettering and which had the green.

Regarding styling, the leading coach here has a lot in common with the model shown above:

17 minutes ago, jhb171achill said:

But a "Jeep" is needed.

Well I suppose we'll just have to wait for the next IRM 'big announcement' and then be either delighted or disappointed...

I reckon that silver coach on the right would follow very nicely from the Park Royals - same bogies, chassis and interior.

I suppose you can't have too many drivers qualified on locos because there isn't enough loco work to maintain their competency. But it ought to be possible to have a few.

I'd have thought that for the blue GMs could be in a competence category with the Enterprise GMs.

Call in the RPSI! 

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

Wonder what sort of chassis a Worsley Works G Class would sit on...

 

Possibly one of these?

http://www.arcadiarail.co.uk/products/lenz/trains/locomotive/40152-01/kof-ii-diesel-locomotive--0-4-0-5720.html

Just now, DJ Dangerous said:

 

That is just gorgeous!

Loco and layout, just wow.

I get a 'phone call because they want €90 in taxes and handling fees from me, not because they like my craggy old face.

 

Ah, comiserations on the extra charges! I really ought to finish off my little O gauge inglenook layout sometime. It's nearly there, just needs a few low-relief buildings and a couple more trees.

At least if I make a big version of the E401 class etch, I'll have somewhere to test it.

1 minute ago, DJ Dangerous said:

No 'phone call from from DHL yet with my parcel!

Booooooooo!

Now in stock at Accurascale and Rails of Sheffield:

https://www.accurascale.com/en-eu/collections/ruston-88ds

https://railsofsheffield.com/blogs/news/all-new-accurascale-o-gauge-ruston-88ds-locos-in-stock

Doesn't look like any irish retailers have them in stock, yet.

You get a phone call? Luxury! I just got home to find a card through the door and a soggy, dented parcel lobbed over the side gate in the rain. The online tracking says it was delivered to a neighbour, but the card they put through the door said it was behind the gate, which was the unhappy truth.

The loco survived the experience though.

1 minute ago, Galteemore said:

Last pic is especially interesting. Steam ‘officially’ ended on CIE in ‘63……just as in NI occasional steam lingered on until some months after the final spoil train. 

E407 carries a CIE roundel, which means it can't be much earlier than 1964. So I think the photo date is correct.

I'm going to keep thinking about the chassis while I carry on with the body etch.

The artwork for all the main parts is now done, just a few little details to do, and then I can finalise the etch layout and add all the tabs.

There are some options for grilles, exhaust cowl and brake dump valve so that most of the class can be modelled throughout their life - until someone finds a picture that proves me wrong!

There will be the following sub-assemblies:

• Bonnet sides and ends
• Bonnet top
• Footplate and cosmetic frames
• Cab sides, ends and control panel
• Cab roof

The two bonnet sub-assemblies will be made separately but then soldered together. The cab roof will remain removable if desired.

The footplate, cab and bonnet will all be held together by a bolt under the control panel in the front of the cab.

There will also be bolts at each end of the footplate which will connect the functional chassis to the footplate and either the cab or bonnet above. 

My current thinking is that coupling mounts will be on the functional chassis.

Three pics of the real thing from various angles and showing the three liveries carried, thanks to Ernie and Roger Joanes:

Very nice indeed! Superb rolling stock and layout atmosphere.

5 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Have a look at www.locosnstuff.com

Mark Clark is a Chatham Club member and seriously clever dude in all things mechanical. Taught himself CAD and 3D printing and now runs his own business. Mainly narrow gauge [& some exotic prototypes], but has produced various kits and bespoke chassis, which may provide inspiration or even something you can use.

 Either way, the website is well worth a look for its own sake.

Many thanks! Looks like there's plenty of neat designs there, I'll have to see whether any are suitable for my needs or if I can just use some of the ideas.

I've had a look at using one of High Level's more standard gearboxes, the RoadRunner, which is only 8.6mm wide. The final drive gear is 23 tooth, and it would be possible to create a geartrain directly from that to the second axle either with five gears 23-12-12-12-23 (purple).

High Level don't offer gears bigger than 23 tooth, but other suppliers do. Replacing the three small ones with a 27 tooth in a straight line (red) would mesh fine, but the ground clearance would be zero with the 27-tooth gear, not ideal for a loco with suspension.

Another option would be a 28 tooth gear mounted slightly higher (green) though the motor might have to be tipped further forward to suit.  

With this type of arrangement, I'd need to provide some form of non-rigid torque reaction for the motor that didn't mess with the suspension too much. Why is it so hard? I thought having no rods would make it easier than a D class...

Maybe I should revert to the previous arrangement, make the leading axle rigid and just put the CSB on the other two axles.

Just now, Horsetan said:

Are you planning around High Level standard hornblocks, or their spacesaver (thin, in other words) ones?

The thin ones! And there's still not enough room in OO. 21mm is OK, but I want to design this to work for both gauges.

Just now, Tullygrainey said:

You're right. There isn't room for hornblocks on the rear axle. As I understand it, the QuadDrivers are designed to provide 3-point compensation - one axle running in fixed bearings and the articulated arm permitting the other axle to rock on a central longitudinal beam. QuadDrivers come as part of the package in Judith Edge kits for Ruston 4wheel shunters and also some RT Models kits and that's how they're deployed in these. That photo of mine shows the arrangement for the Ruston.

I'm not a great fan of rigid chassis but that's just me!

Alan

Thanks for confirming. I'm not a fan of rigid chassis either!

For a 6-wheel loco I need a more complex arrangement of compensation or springing, which is why the hornblocks and CSB method appeal. But I think that works best if all wheels are sprung.

3 minutes ago, Tullygrainey said:

Measured at the point where the articulated arm overlaps the main body,  the QuadDriver is around 11.5mm wide. The axle bearings add a bit more but these can be filed flush on the outside if necessary. 

Many thanks - I feared that would be the case. It definitely doesn’t fit for 00 gauge!
I’ll have to find an alternative solution if this is to be buildable for OO with hornblocks. Maybe a rigid chassis would be sufficient for OO? 

Thanks for the tip re NWSL. I have successfully used their products in the past, though I got the impression that their range isn't as big as it once was. Certainly last time I looked to re-order parts I'd had from them in the past, it seems they are no longer stocked.

Anyway, here's a sketch I've worked up this evening. The wheels and 2mm axles are shown in black, the functional frame in dark grey and the cosmetic frame behind in grey:

The idea is to use a QuaDriver 20mm wheelbase to power the two closely-spaced axles, with the 'tower' at the left-hand end wheelset and the arm connected to the middle wheelset. I can't find any actual dimensions for this unit, but from @Tullygrainey's photo (reproduced below) it looks like it should be fine.

Then I'll have to create a custom equivalent of a Drivestretcher with five 20-tooth gears to connect to the third axle (sketched in blue above, I know they're not proper gear shapes but it's the PCD that matters and 4x8=32 so that works.

Having done a lot of searching online I think I've found the key dimensions of the hornblocks, datum holes and CSB pivot heights. I've had to refer to several different websites and documents because I haven't yet found any one source that provides a complete dataset. I think the following are correct:

• Hornblock slot in frames is 5mm wide.
• Top of hornblock slot is 4mm above axle centreline.
• CSB pivot points are 3mm, 4mm or 5mm above the axle centreline. I've used 5mm in the sketch above.
• Small datum hole above hornblock slot is 5.2mm above the axle centreline (this is an estimate, but it's more than 5mm as on the images of the CSB jig it's fractionally above the 5mm row)

I've then used one of the online CSB spreadsheets to work out where the pivot points ought to be if the wheels are to be equally loaded. A=18, B=11, C=24, D=16. Hopefully I've got this right - @Horsetan does this look plausible?

I still need to work out the width between the frames. Again it's hard to find published dimensions for the width of the QuadDriver gearbox, but it looks like it might be a tight fit between the the thinner 'spacesaver' hornblocks for OO gauge. I fear it might not fit at all. The thinner hornblocks are nominally 2.2mm wide, so with OO back-to-back being 14.5mm that leaves only 10.1mm for the gearbox as well as any clearance needed. The gearbox looks wider than 10mm! @Tullygrainey, is yours accessible to measure the width of the QuadDriver gearbox?

For once, 21mm gauge is easier in this case, but I need to make my solution work for both gauges.

This is becoming a headache!

5 minutes ago, commerlad said:

I know but I have enough parts for 7 as it is (2 CDR, 2 IOM, 3West Clare.)

The West Clare had 4 so surely you ‘need’ just the one more?

The early applications of black and tan (1962/3) were done before the CIE 'roundel' was introduced at the end of 1963, so they didn't have the roundel applied. Examples include B141s as delivered, and the relatively small number of Crossley-engined A and C class locos painted in black and tan. 

Later repaints (and the newly-delivered 181 class) in the mid and late 1960s had the roundel with the black and tan livery, but on the AR / B101 / B201 class locos the tan band was usually not as deep. 

The deep tan band and CIE roundel shown on A39R above is prototypically correct for this loco, but it was a rare combination.

Considering the AEC railcars in black and tan, some of them carried the roundel and unusually it was on the tan (orange) band, not on the black. The roundel colours were therefore changed so it would show up. The 'broken wheel' was black with a fine white edging, while the CIE remained white.

No AEC railcars carried 'Supertrain' which as far as I am aware was only applied to air-conditioned coaches (Mk2 and Mk3) and locomotives.

Fortunately, mine seems to have survived being thrown over a 6' high gate by the courier, and sitting in the rain for most of the day. A credit to Accurascale packaging (though it took a while to properly dry out the cardboard box). 

I've just given it a test run on 'Boysnope Bump' with a few trucks, and it sounds and runs very nicely. I'm impressed! 

I haven't done much with this layout for a year or so (and of course it's not finished, though probably more advanced than most of my layout attempts). One of those things about long lead-time pre-orders - this is the first of 3 locos I ordered in advance to actually turn up! When I get back to O gauge it will need some serious weathering to represent the Lancashire Tar Distillers 88DS!

35 minutes ago, David Holman said:

Seriously clever stuff, well beyond my pay grade - which is probably why my eyes are glazing over!

 On my Deutz G class shunter, I used Delrin chain and gears, but can this be done in 4mm? Once built a Y10 Double Sentinel, which relied on single axle drive and a lot of ballast, to move half a dozen wagons. The other axle could rock, so pick up was reasonable.

Thanks David. I've used Delrin chain in 7mm scale too, but it doesn't seem to be widely used in 4mm scale and these locos have particularly small wheels which would require small sprockets and a fine chain. With any small shunter I think compensation or springing of some sort is very important - not just to minimise derailments but to improve pick up, exactly as you say. 

From an enquiry on RMweb I have the following answer relating to the High Level gearboxes (though this is from someone who uses them, rather than the manufacturer):

• Most gears are module 0.4 but the likes of the reduction gear in the 54:1 gear boxes are a mix. The 27/10 twin gear is mod 0.3 for the 27 tooth and Module 0.4 for the 10 tooth.

The High Level 'Quaddriver' is a good call, it's available in 20mm wheelbase which would be right for the two closer wheelsets on the E401. Though to get the weight over the driven axles in that case would give a loco with very asymmetric weight distribution. I was thinking of using the same principle to power all 3 wheelsets, but it's a bit of a challenge to arrange that to work smoothly with compensation/springing as well. 

I'll keep working on the body artwork while I consider the chassis!

Ah great, many thanks, I’ll have a good read tomorrow!