Mol_PMB

Thanks for pointing out that they are different, so I definitely need one of yours! The Provincial Wagons version is this type (Brian Flannigan photo on Flickr): Whereas the IRM version is this type (Kieran Marshall photo on Flickr): The same at first glance but when you look closely there are a whole host of differences in the doors, the ribs, the fork slots...

I have applied to (re-)join the IRRS but my membership details are taking a while to come through. Once that's happened, it's still not clear whether I will be able to access such documents readily. I was hoping someone might have a copy of the relevant page handy!

I'm planning to make a model of one of the GNR/CIE 'bagged cement' box vans based on the Parkside kit for a BR plywood van. I know this is a well-trodden path! It will be 21mm gauge so I'll need to move the solebars and buffers out. But I'd like to check whether there are any other dimensional adjustments needed. For example, are the body dimensions the same or do I need to widen the body slightly too? Can anyone point me towards a dimensioned drawing of one of these vans? I assume such a drawing appears in one or both of the GNR(I) diagram books listed as in the IRRS archives: WD 001 GNR(I) Wagon diagram Book rev 1948 Y Y 35 Very clean original, does not include any of the later wagons WD 002 GNR(I) Wagon diagram Book rev c. 1959 45 From Dundalk works,Well used, annotation including numbers and build dates for many later wagons Cheers, Mol

Found elsewhere on the forum, a 10' container on a road vehicle, with mail being transferred to/from the train. The container is still quite new and clean in this 1970s photo by jhb171achill: From the same source, a shiny new pair: I must have a root through this thread for more!

The 4-wheelers were delivered in silver. Remember, you don't need one if there's a steam loco on the front, or if it's summer time. Only diesel-hauled in trains in winter need the steam. Also about half of the AEC railcars had built-in boilers so they don't need a steam van either. From Ernie on Flickr, it's August so there's no need for heating: The early 4-wheel vans were delivered in silver: They were later green, as seen here in one of Ernie's photos: And finally black and tan, at which point they seem to have lost some windows: The 6-wheelers were delivered new in black and tan, as seen here in one of Ernie's photos: They ended their days in 1983 confined to Dublin suburban services, as seen here in Neil Smith's photo:

It's important to note that there was a change in policy around 1970, relating to the electrical supply on carriages, and this influences which type of heating van is appropriate for a train. From steam days, carriages with electric lighting had dynamos and batteries, with steam heat provided from the loco. When diesels were introduced from 1955, steam heat vans were required to provide the heat, but the lighting still came from the dynamos and batteries. So... The 4-wheel heating vans 3101-3152 built 1955-1960 just had a boiler, no electric generator. The 6-wheel vans 3153-3156 built in 1964 (there were only ever 4 of them) had 2 boilers but still no electric generator. Around 1970 there was a move to convert the passenger fleet lighting from dynamos and batteries to supply from a generating steam van. Converted carriages had a TL suffix added to their number, indicating Train Line lighting. This required additional through wiring of the lighting power circuits. I'm not sure whether the dynamos and/or batteries were removed at the same time, or if there were changes to the voltage etc. So... The 10 'Dutch' vans 3157TL-3166TL built in 1969 were the first to have a generator. In 1972, the 22 ex-BR MK1 vans 3167TL-3176TL and 3177TL-3192TL arrived, also generator fitted. Gradual conversion of the whole fleet proceeded through the 1970s and early 1980s, with the carriages used for express trains generally prioritised over those on suburban duties. As the conversion programme progressed, more BGSVs were needed, so... Former brake standard coaches were modified with boilers and generators in 1977-1978 - these were numbered in the 3201TL-3218TL series and there were several varieties. By 1981 almost all trains were on the TL system; just the four 6-wheel vans were still in use on Dublin suburban trains with non-TL stock. Of course they were swept away by the DART. Getting back on topic for this thread, you'll notice that the Park Royal carriages offered by IRM include those with and without a TL suffix to the number. So... If you have carriages without TL, then they ought to be paired with a 4-wheel or 6-wheel heating van. If you have carriages with TL, then they ought to be paired with a Dutch, BR or 3201 series heating van. Doubtless there were mixtures during the transition period even if that meant going without lights!

Many thanks, that’s really helpful and plenty for me to think about. I will need to have some pointwork, but not sure what approach to use at present. Buffer spacing is 6’3” for the CIE wagons, whereas GB standard gauge is 5’7.5”, a 7.5” difference, similar to the track gauge increase.

This is on the Chemins de fer du Jura, and it’s also a waste train. Click on the photo to take you to my Flickr album for more details, and many more photos. The CJ has a couple of street running sections, the more impressive one is at La Chaux-de-Fonds but I haven’t uploaded a photo of that - I’ll try to find one later. They also operate freight on rollschemels: The RhB Chur-Arosa route is another place where you can see metre gauge freight/mixed trains running in the street. The biggest Swiss user of rollbocken for carrying standard gauge wagons on narrow gauge is the MBC: Again, there are more pics in the Flickr album. Mol

I have done the deed with the buffers, and I think it looks satisfactory. It's very hard to get buffers perfectly straight, but I take comfort from the fact that the factory-fitted ones aren't 100% perfect either! I have enough of these buffers to convert another wagon, so I might do that tomorrow or Friday. The buffers I've used are X6495 Hornby Sprung Tender Buffers for Class B1. They're not a perfect match to the CIE self-contained buffers but they're about right. Photo of the real thing from Neil Smith, showing the larger type buffers and how near they are to the outer edge of the headstock:

OK, here's a thread for the tank containers:

Some from Flickr. From Fred Dean, one of the Ammonia barrier tanks: From Jonathan Allen, a photo dated 1989 with stacks of tanks carrying different branding. Two are Shell, three are Cold Chon (Galway): A photo in Doyle&Hirsch shows two of these tank containers with similar branding panels for Cationic Road Emulsions. From Jon33040 on Flickr, here's the 'wrong' end of the coal&oil train, with the tanks just visible in the distance.

CIE had a fleet of 20x8x8 tank containers, mostly used for fuels and other oils. Latterly they were used on the Foynes to Ballina coal and oil train, and the barrier wagon tanks used on the Ammonia trains were also very similar. Here are a few detail photos that I took of dumped survivors.

Ernie included some of the stacks at Ennis in his photos, this is where I got most of my closeup pics but from different angles. Far right in this first photo is a grey one with UNILOAD branding - yet another variant!

This photo from Brian Flannigan on Flickr shows the Wexford liner in 1982. Two 10' containers are in very clean, plain tan livery with black roundel, while the most of the rest are in grubby UNILOAD. That suggests that the plain tan livery came later than UNILOAD. My impression of the earlier photos that show both gray and UNILOAD containers is that the grey ones are dirtier, so the grey livery probably came first. There's no doubt that the majority carried UNILOAD

Great, that would be wonderful. I'll definitely have 4 of the next batch, unpainted. I'll probably add a few other bits and pieces too as it looks like you have a good range of bits. Cheers, Mol

I was going to ask this question but found it had been answered already, over a decade ago. Here are two of my photos showing 155 and 158 with the modification, but at Limerick so nowhere near the border. I recall 156 having it (also seen at Limerick), and a quick search online also found pics of 154 and 159 with the modification.

On which topic, I'm looking forward to Accurascale's take on a BGSV, complete with DCC hissing sounds to accompany the inevitable steam leak effects. It might even blow off occasionally!

From Jeremy Chapter on Flickr, a busy scene at Mallow in 1979, including several Uniload containers, one on the back of a CIE Bedford truck in tan livery: The book 'Rails Through Wexford' (Beaumont & Carse) includes two photos (pages 37, 40) of the Dublin-Wexford liner in the early 1980s with plenty of these containers, in UNILOAD tan livery and in grey. Though I must confess the most impressive container photo in that book is from an earlier era, with about 40 pre-ISO containers full of bacon ready for export from Rosslare in 1959! Similarly, 'Rails Through Tipperary' (Beaumont & Carse) includes three photos (pages 26, 28, 32) of short liner trains on the Nenagh route, with UNILOAD containers. But it's interesting that these two books, ostensibly covering exactly the right era and location for the UNILOAD containers, contain so few views of them! They were introduced in 1978 to finally get rid of the unfitted goods vans, but that small-volume sundries traffic was probably dying already.

Project number 2 was an IRM corrugated open wagon. Again, it was reasonably straightforward to extract the wheelsets and tap the wheels along the axles. However, the maximum back-to-back I could achieve was 19.0mm - any more than this and the wheels rubbed on the back of the W iron mouldings. To achieve a largere BTB would require a thinner, more finescale wheel profile. On this model, the brake shoes are positioned to align with the 16.5mm gauge wheels, foul the wheel flanges when the wheels are set to 21mm gauge. However, the brake gear is very simple (as per the prototype) and I found that by levering with a tiny screwdriver I could release the brake hanger from its mounting hole in the chassis. I then used a small drill bit to slightly enlarge the tapered slot next to the hole, so I could push the brake hanger back in there. With a small tweak to the brake push rod safety loop, the brake shoe aligned with the wheel quite well: It's not perfect but it looks fine from normal viewing angles. In due course I'll apply a tiny blob of glue to hold it in the new position: I suspect that modifying the brakes on the forthcoming vac-fitted H van will be much more challenging! Next I realised that the buffer spacing looked very wrong on the broad gauge track. On this model, the buffers are set to match GB rolling stock for some reason, and they ought to be further apart for an Irish vehicle. I decided to take the plunge and try to change them. Also, I wanted to represent a wagon retro-fitted with the larger buffers, like this one: I was unable to remove the old buffers without damaging them badly. I temporarily removed the wagon body and sanded down the remains, and then re-drilled new larger holes in a better position: The buffers I had in stock looked about right until I held them up against the wagon headstock, and then they looked too big! But looking back at the prototype photo the base of the buffers is a fair bit taller than the headstock section. I'll have a think about it and see if I can find an alternative buffer if I decide these ones aren't right. Any suggestions welcome! In the meantime, here's a view of the bufferless wagon on the broad gauge track: I've ordered a couple of wagon kits which I plan to build to 21mm gauge - that may be easier than modifying RTR where suitable kits are available. My main stumbling block for the kits is the broad gauge wheelsets. I think I'll try the dodge of cutting the axle in half and sleeving it. Please tell me if there are better approaches to re-gauging, or if you have advice on back-to-back, finer wheel profiles or sourcing wheelsets - I feel I'm stumbling a bit on the path to 21mm...

Starting anew in Irish 4mm scale modelling, I'm considering the gauge question. I thought I'd do some experiments to see how easy or hard it was to regauge rolling stock to 21mm, before making a final decision. Of course it's more complicated than just the gauge. There are different wheel standards and back-to-backs to consider, which seems a bit of a minefield! For now I'm going to see what's possible by re-using the existing wheelsets. Anyway, I started at the relatively cheap end of the scale and bought some spare IRM Y33 bogies as a starting point. It was fairly easy to remove the wheelsets and I was able to tap the axles through the wheels to achieve a 19.2mm back-to-back (which is one of the dimensions I've seen quoted). Assembling the wheelsets back into the bogies was straightforward and the wheels then had a much better alignment to the axleboxes and the representation of brake gear. This photo shows before and after on my dual gauge track: I don't really have a use for these bogies at present, but they will be good for testing track as the wheel/rail interface is quite visible. I might re-gauge the other one and connect them with a strip of perspex for that purpose. I'll describe the second project in the next post.

One of my recollections of a Park Royal was a sauna. The steam heating had sprung a leak inside the carriage, with the result that the windows were all steamed up, the seats were damp and the moisture was dripping off the ceiling. You could see from one of the carriage to the other, but it was like a thick fog. We rapidly selected an alternative carriage!

I have photos of several other CIE container types, including 20' boxes, tanks and half-height open top variants. Would people be interested in seeing them too? Also I have a detail drawing of the BELL containers built in Derby.

A couple more photos of the cut-down wagons, from Jonathan Allen on Flickr: At Ballymena around 1980: MEDs 26 & 27 in Ballymena | MED 26 was last used in July 197… | Flickr At Derry in 1980, there is also another one cut down to a flat here: Londonderry Waterside - "old" station, March 1980 | Interior… | Flickr

Many thanks! It seems they were first introduced in August 1978 and they were certainly in use through the 1980s. My gut feel is that they fell out of use in the early 1990s? The number series is CIEU 160####, and normally the last digit would be a check digit, so we may be able to estimate how many there were based on the known numbers. I do intend to buy a few, although I don't presently have any flat wagons to put them on! Would you consider printing an alternative door design with vertical ribs? Not too much of an issue though, the doors are normally hidden when they're loaded onto wagons, which is why it's hard to find good photos of the doors! They actually seem quite camera-shy, or perhaps not many people are container nerds like me... Plenty here at North Wall in 1985 (Andrew Pullar photo): One on the left here, pic dated 1982 from Brian Flannigan: I don't think any were blue in service, here's a 2016 pic from Kieran Marshall: A fair number here in 1991, photo from Adrian Nicholls:

If my experiments with 21mm gauge work out OK, then I am formulating a plan to build a small shunting layout loosely based on the sidings at Lisburn, set in the late 1970s. Rolling stock would be mainly NIR engineers' stock (hence my interest in the former spoil wagons and courtaulds wagons) with an IRM Hunslet and perhaps a DH as motive power. The location allows CIE locos and rolling stock to visit. It would also be possible to include parts of Lisburn passenger station in the background, perhaps with a stationary passenger train. On the other hand, I could use the opposite viewpoint with just a grassy bank in the background, and then with a change of rolling stock it could become the goods yard at a rural CIE station somewhere else. I'm thinking of an overall size not much more than 4' x 1' to keep it manageable. However, I might come up with a different idea in due course!