Mol_PMB

Other types of dropside wagons appear in some photos that do not fit into any of the groups described above, and these may be from other CIE/GSR constituents. Here are some example photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510583447 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622074 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570466216 ...and the more distant one in Ernie's photo that we looked at before: For the steel underframe wagons in the previous post, a model of the SECR 2-plank dropside ballast wagon would be a good starting point. These are available as a kit from Cambrian, and have been made RTR by Rapido, although you'll have to search for them secondhand. The SECR wagon is the right length but has a 9'6" wheelbase instead of 10'. It's not a perfect match, but it was available in red livery like some of the CIE ones, as well as the more common grey:

We now come to the tricky group, the 4-wheelers with steel underframes. These were basically the same design built by the GSWR through to CIE, with the last batch of 50 in 1949. Number series included the following, but there may have been more: 8343-8385, built by GSWR 8460-8492, probably also GSWR 24000-24047, built by GSWR/GSR from 1917 24051-24100, built by CIE in 1949 Pender & Richards (1967) list only the CIE-built wagons (they deliberately exclude earlier stock): 24051-24100 1949 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks 'Ballast wagons...the 1949 batch of 50 wagons have conventional steel frames...They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept.' The 1975 working timetable lists the following groups; note the different load capacities: 8460-8492 Ballast Wagon, 8 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes. 8343-8384 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes. 24000-24047 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes. 24051-24100 Ballast Wagon, 12 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes. There is either some confusion in the numbering or the early sequences are not entirely open ballast wagons, because 8263/8382 are listed separately as 20 tonne ballast hoppers. The 1985 and 1986 working timetables list the same groups. Doyle&Hirsch 1979 edition does not list the ballast wagons in the 8000 number series (though some other GSWR wagons in that series are listed). It does list the later wagons, although it appears that the numbers are becoming depleted: 24000-24028 Ballast Wagon, 10 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1917. 24051-24100 Ballast wagon, 12 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1949. The 1981 edition has the same details and number series given. Sadly I have presently mislaid my 1987 edition, so I can't check that. There were detail differences between the batches, such as the type of W iron, axlebox and buffer. However, these are details that may change at overhaul so they aren't 100% reliable indicators. From Ernie, the wagon next to the cattle wagon here is a good example of the type, and is seen in 1961. The body of all these is very standard: 4 door hinges and 4 door bangers next to the hinges, 2 shallow planks on sides and ends, and stakes at the ends. The wagon in the photo above has plain axleguards, so I'm fairly sure it's a GSWR/GSR wagon but I'm not sure which batch it's from. The photos from Ernie below show two survivors in 1978, one of which appears to be red with black or dark grey underframe, while the other one looks yellowish. I think the red one also has the plain axleguards like the wagon pictured above. Taken in 1968, here's a nice portrait of 8385, one of the 10t capacity GSWR wagons, with the other type of GSWR W-iron. The body is in bauxite-red with flying snail, while the solebars are grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511328921 This photo apparently of 8271 dated 1971 looks almost identical, except the wagon is in very poor condition. 8271 is not in the number ranges for this type of wagon listed above. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510434197 This 1969 photo shows two more very similar wagons, probably from the 10t capacity batch. One appears to have a dirty bauxite body with snail, but the underframe looks more grey. The nearer wagon only just visible is bright red with black underframe: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511304476 In the corner of the photo is another GSWR wagon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614390 Moving on to the CIE-built versions with 12t capacity, there are definitely two of them in this 1969 photo as their numbers are legible, 24076 and 24078. Their bodies are both in bright red livery with white roundel, while the underframes are dark grey or black. The number is shown on the sides and the ends. The second photo was taken at the same location and shows an alternative view of one of them in the background. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511462853 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511469593 This 1970s photo shows 24054 from above, with its sides dropped: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527762385 This 1975 photo from Jonathan Allen shows half a wagon on the edge of the photo with a 24xxx number: Other photos featuring this type of wagon, but less identifiable, are as follows: A rake of 5 in 1966: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510480877 One in 1978: A floorless example in 1986: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509338094 Apparently still in use in 1985 but in poor condition, note pale body and black underframe: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509335364

Next I'll look briefly at the 6-wheelers, which were built by the GSWR. I know very little about these, but they are interesting vehicles. They had one-plank ends with stakes, and the one-plank drop-sides were in two portions. These wagons had screw couplings and vacuum brakes as well as a handbrake. It appears that the vacuum cylinders acted on clasp brakes on the end wheelsets, while the handbrake acted on the middle wheelset. The long spindly buffers are unusual on a wagon. It is possible they were modified from 6-wheel carriages, or used some aspects of carriage design. Pender & Richards (1967) do not list these, because they only include CIE-built wagons in their listing. The 1975 working timetable lists them as one group, and the same data is repeated in the 1985 and 1986 working timetables: 24102-24112 Ballast Wagon, 10 tonnes, tare 10 tonnes. The tare weight is considerably more than the 4-wheeled dropside wagons. Doyle&Hirsch 1979 and 1981 editions do not list them, despite them being listed in the working timetable as late as 1986. I have found three photos so far, all in the IRRS archive. This image from 1969 shows 24103 being rebuilt, with a significant amount of new timber. The parts not renewed show a livery of dark red or bauxite on the sides, and black or dark grey on the chassis: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646909 Another photo of the same wagon in service in 1972 after its rebuild shows it in a fairly bright red on the sides and ends, with black underframe. Number, PWD lettering and a roundel are in white on the sides: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511646919 The final photo I've found shows just one end of 24112, in a black and white shot: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498774956 Sorry I haven't yet found any photos of these in the public domain.

The Stapleford miniature railway is used by the IMechE as a venue for the 'Railway Challenge' competition which involves teams of university students building a railway locomotive to meet various technical challenges. The competition attracts many national and international entries, and has been such a success that improvements to the track layout and facilities at the railway have been needed to accommodate it. https://www.imeche.org/events/challenges/railway-challenge

I'm going to start with the last two groups, converted from cattle wagons. These are the easiest to identify in photos, because they have wooden underframes, whereas all the other types have steel underframes. Pender & Richards (1967) list these as follows: 24401-24450 1964/65 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks, ex cattle; with fall doors 24451-24515 1964/65 Ballast, 12 tons, 16'11" length over headstocks, ex cattle; no fall doors 'Ballast wagons...the timber-framed wagons are conversions from cattle wagons. They are all finished in the red livery of the Permanent Way Dept.' The 1975 working timetable lists them as one group, and the same data is repeated in the 1985 and 1986 working timetables: 24401-24515 Ballast Wagon, 12 tonnes, tare 6 tonnes. Doyle&Hirsch 1979 edition lists them as one group too: 24401-24515 Ballast wagon, 12 tons, tare 6 tons, wheelbase 10'0", hand brakes, introduced 1964, converted from 1953 built cattle wagons. By the 1981 edition, they were still listed but the number series had shrunk to 24412-24499. Sadly I have presently mislaid my 1987 edition, so I can't check that. Anyway, that's all fairly consistent. Let's look at some photos. Please note that those linked to the IRRS archive will only be visible to IRRS members. This photo dated 1975 from Jonathan Allen on Flickr should be visible to everyone though. We're looking at the wagon next to the brake van on the right, which appears to be loaded with spoil. It's a 2-plank dropside with end stakes, on a wooden underframe with long hand brake lever. Large flat fronted axleboxes. Note that the drop side has 4 hinges but only 3 door bangers and 3 corresponding banger plates on the sides. Here's 24514, a wonderful colour portait of the wagon dated 1969, showing its vivid red body and grey underframe. It has a white roundel and very small PWD lettering: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510417347 Here's another quite clear colour photo dated 1970, which shows 24477, again in red livery with roundel and PWD. In this case the solebar is either black or very dark grey. The physical details of the wagon are the same as in the two previous photos. It is carrying a crew mess hut. We can see the number 24477 on the side and end, but it has been crossed out and a new number 360A painted on the solebar and the end. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570644103 Here's a track relaying train in the 1970s, the wagons loaded with sleepers, with 24401 visible as the wagon next to the brake van. This wagon has no sides but it does have 2-plank ends. Pender & Richards noted that some of these wagons had 'fall doors' (dropsides) and some did not, but the wagon numbers with and without sides in the photos are not consistent with their statement. Although it's a colour photo, the livery is rather indeterminate but we can see that the number is painted on the end. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527762385 In the same photo, the wagon next to the crane with bright red ends but no visible number also appears to have a wooden underframe and is therefore another of this group. The solebar looks to be dark grey or black and may have a white roundel on it as well as the number. We can see that the deck planks are no wider than the solebars. Finally, and perhaps scraping the barrel, I think the nearest wagon visible in this 1969 photo is of this type, because of certain visible details such as the door banger and hinge positions. It does show a useful view of how the open door hangs relative to the floor: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511622884 Considering the slightly faded red livery visible on several of these wagons in the 1969/1970 photos, their bodies were probably painted red with white roundels at the time of their conversion from cattle wagons in 1964/5. The underframes may not have been painted at that time, retaining their previous dark grey. Some wagons may have missed out on the red paint, but as yet I haven't seen a colour photo of one of these in grey. The stocklists indicate that some lasted into the 1980s but their numbers were dwindling.

I’m going to write a series of posts about the dropside open wagons described by CIE as ‘Ballast Wagons’ in the late 1960s to 1980s period. This excludes ballast hoppers and I will also exclude the PWD flat and bolster wagons which were sometimes also referred as ‘Ballast Wagons’ – they may form the subject future research. Some of these wagons carried an unusual red livery in both ‘snail’ and ‘roundel’ eras. I intend to cover various number series based on a combination of the following sources: ‘Irish Railways Today’, by Pender & Richards, 1967. ‘Locomotives & Rolling Stock of CIE & NIR’, Doyle & Hirsch Stockbooks, 1979 and 1981 editions. CIE ‘Working Time Table’, November 1975, January 1985 and January 1986 editions, which include a listing of wagon types. Images in the IRRS photo archive and elsewhere on Flickr and in publications. The following number series will be considered: 8343-8385, built by GSWR 8460-8492, probably also GSWR 24000-24047, built by GSWR/GSR from 1917 24051-24100, built by CIE in 1949 24102-24112, 6-wheelers, maybe conversions? 24401-24450, converted in 1964/5 from 1953-built cattle wagons 24451-24515, converted in 1964/5 from 1953-built cattle wagons To clarify the type of wagon I’m talking about, here are a few lurking in the corners of photos on Flickr, from Ernie and Jonathan Allen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/43494741444 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52900024110 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51181975826 Most of the better images of them are on the IRRS Flickr archive and I’ll provide links to those as I discuss each variant. More later… Mol

That’s great, many thanks! I think I can make out the traverser at the back of the wagon works on those views, and they help to confirm the position of the carriage wash plant. It also looks like the main lines have been reballasted so maybe some alterations there too.

Reviving an old thread, the GSR built several of these and CIE copied the design. There were never many of them - maybe 10 in total but it’s complicated to keep track because they were on the borderline between the ‘traffic’ number series and the internal use wagons with an A suffix. The old-school Airfix kit now marketed by Dapol is a pretty good match, I think. But the space under the deck is very limited on a lowmac so I’m not sure how practical it would be to produce an Irish gauge version from the kit. I might give it a try… Here’s 651A at Limerick in 1991 (Adrian Nicholls photo:

That’s a bit too accurate for comfort. It’s making my knees and back hurt just looking at those ‘seats’.

To ensure compliance with the regulations they’ll have to install lifts, or zig-zag ramps that are so long that they cross the county boundary! Not to mention protection from the OLE that’s now spreading further (great news!)

I have had a trawl through the National Library of Ireland online photo archive, which contains a very good selection of images of this part of Limerick and helps to identify when the major changes took place. There are also photos of the signal box track/signalling diagrams from 1959 and 1974 (for both the Station and Check boxes) which help to confirm the track layout of the running lines and some of the sidings. From this I have discovered that the original WLWR loco shed was used as a steam loco workshops until 1962, and the smaller building behind it (to the west) was the fitting shop. The larger sheds just north of the Foynes line were the wagon works. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305892 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306360 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305899 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306231 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306904 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305900 In 1962/3 there were some major changes. The loco works was closed and the area around it tidied up, with redundant sidings between the shed and the main line removed along with a load of accumulated junk. A nice green lawn was planted! The loco works building became part of the wagon works, but the right-hand track into it was removed. T https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306902 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306650 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307038 This is a great general view but is flipped left/right: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307276 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307749 In 1974 there were some more major changes to the track layout, associated with the resignalling of the whole Limerick area. Both the station and check cabins were converted to electonic panels with colour light signals. The old loco shed south of the Foynes line was cleared and the site used for a bus depot. This meant the locos had to move back to their original home, and so the green lawn was ripped up and replaced with some stabling sidings and a fueling point. The third line into the old WLWR shed was also reinstated and this appears to have been used for loco maintenance while the other 2 tracks remained part of the wagon works. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308203 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308161 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308204 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000308111 I think the layout remained basically the same then into the 1990s, though the fuelling point facilities were improved and at some point a carriage wash plant was installed on the adjacent line. Photos from Tarkaman, Ernie, Pete Robins, Dan Hitchens: At some stage I'll see if I can create a trackplan of the area for the 1974-1990s period.

Many thanks, that’s really helpful!

Mainline coaches have toilets, so some frosted windows and probably water pipes on the roof?

A question for @Warbonnet or colleagues if I may. When a model is all sold out on pre-order (like these bulk grain vans), is there likely to be another option to buy them once they arrive? Maybe pre-orders that aren’t completed, or a proportion of models supplied to stockists/dealers rather than sold direct? Or are they all spoken for and it’ll be a case of hunting for resales on eBay etc if I want any? Sorry if this is a naïve question, I’m not very familiar with the way the pre-order system works. Many thanks, Mol

Absolutely. The first modification needed is to get that shutter open and put a member of staff in the kitchen. IRM have set a high bar for themselves. When the main line versions arrive, we’ll have to see what the lavatory details are like. A tiny soap grater above the basin?

It has been used in the past, I’ve definitely boarded a train there, 20+ years ago. Quite a trek from Heuston proper though, I recall there was a bus shuttle on offer but it was quicker to walk than wait for the bus!

Seeing those orange CIE route maps in the saloon takes me right back!

Wow! I've ordered a couple of suburbans but not a snack car. Seriously tasty!

I scanned a couple of old maps and plans from my books. This is Limerick in 1858 (as built), which shows the original shed. It looks like the smaller buidlings at the back of the shed are original: This is Limerick in 1900, and some aspects of this track layout may still be the same today:

Ah, that's the same photo of Killaloe I was looking at in the book, but the loco was wrongly identified in the caption. It's a great photo and good to see it in better resolution on the NLI website. Sorry that I haven't helped at all.

I'm mulling over the idea of a small shunting layout in 21mm gauge. I have strong memories of Limerick in the 1980s and although the railway has a vast sprawl aound the city, there are opportunities for smaller cameo scenes. With my main interest being wagons and locos, the wagon works and stabling point seem like they might be a good place to model. But the usage of these buildings has changed over time, and I'd like to make sure my plan is plausible. I'm most interested in what each of the buildings was used for in the 1970s-1990s period. Some photos from Ernie on Flickr show the array of buildings in the wagon works area, from left to right... Bus depot on the far left, then the Foynes line, then older and newer buildings part of the wagon works: Just visible on the right-hand edge of the photo above is the original WLWR works: Further to the right, the stabling point: And the main lines are beyond that further to the right: There's a fascinating mix of ancient and modern buildings here, and a mix of locos and wagons with a main line passing too. There are also some interesting links here showing a traverser, and some present-day interior views of the buildings: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/11551-limerick-wagon-works-traverser/#comment-178608 https://thewandererphotos.smugmug.com/2024-Photos/July-2024/i-qMBP3WJ Here's a present-day aerial image from Google maps, on which I've drawn some coloured outlines: Working upwards from the bottom: The bus depot shown in purple is, I think, on the site of the former loco shed? The Foynes line runs just north of that. The green building is presently the wagon works, the blue buildings are derelict and I'm not sure what they originally were, or when they fell out of use. The old WLWR works/shed is shown in orange, and I assume the red part behind was also part of the works as it was built in a similar style. These buildings are presently used for railcar servicing. Were they part of the wagon works at one time, or was this always a loco facility? Ernie's photo above shows a wagon in the left-hand road and a loco in the right-hand road. This 1980s photo shows a lot of wagons, and what might be a carriage in the middle road: Finally, the small brick building with the bay windows, shown in yellow on the map. What was its history and purpose? I'm thinking that for a small wagon shunting layout, the yard in that last photo might be a nice place to model. 3 sidings for shunting wagons, a fourth track behind the brick building to stable spare locos. Some characterful buildings, and a place that I remember well. But there are other interesting areas of the works too, like the traverser, the loco stabling point and the buildings nearer the Foynes line. I can't fit it all in! I'd welcome any info on the history of the works buildings and activities here, or pointers towards articles on the topic. Cheers, Mol

I have some of the WLWR books you've already looked at, but also quite a good selection of older 'general' Irish railway books. Sadly, very few feature the WLWR; most consider it as part of the GSWR, and without any photos. 'Irish Standard Gauge Railways' (Middlemass) does at least illustrate a WLWR loco, 2-4-0 number 11 at Limerick works. But that's not one you need and I think it also appears elsewhere. 'Transport in Ireland 1880-1910' (Flanagan) has a lovely photo of Foynes dated 1897, but the loco is very distant. Also a nice photo of Killaloe in 1897 with 2-4-2T either 13 or 14, 5 coaches and a variety of vans and wagons. But again it doesn't help complete your list. For the record, the following books did not include pre-1900 WLWR photos: A regional history of railways, Vol 16 Ireland (Rowledge) Railways in Ireland 1834-1984 (Doyle&Hirsch) Irish Steam (Nock) Railway History in Pictures: Ireland (McCutcheon) Broken Rails (MacAongusa) The North Kerry Line (O'Rourke) So, sorry, I can't help! Mol

Having failed to find any suitable transfers I have started doing some artwork for my own custom decals. And it has become apparent that there is more variation than I had thought, so I'm basing these on photos of my preferred prototypes. I'm not quite finished yet, still fine-tuning the black shading. The shaded numbers are based on the Humanst521 BT font, which is similar to Gill Sans but with some subtle differences. However, I've still had to tweak a lot of the numeral shapes. The unshaded numbers I've created myself from scratch using arcs and straights, as I couldn't find any suitable font. I'm trying to match the number spacing on each loco individually. 192 had a mismatched numeral on one end only! This is hard work, but I'm getting there. Observant readers will realise that I don't have 4 baby GMs but maybe I will get some more in future. All these have some significance to me. Please forgive my OCD! Mol

And in that, you've highlighted one of the challenges with containers. The dimensions are standardised but the modelling scales aren't, so a 1:43.5 scale doesn't stack on a 1:45 scale or a 1:48 scale! I scratchbuilt my 1:43.5 scale boxes, because there wasn't anything available in the right scale to match my desired prototypes (mid 1960s Manchester Liners). Fortunately, for Irish 4mm scale there are some nice products available in 4mm scale. And I have found photos of both MOL containers and Manchester Liners containers on trains in Ireland so I can have a couple of my favourites. But CIE and BELL must dominate. I haven't yet got any Irish wagons capable of carrying containers so I mustn't get ahead of myself...

I have done some 7mm scale containers, and I have the transfers for a MOL one, but like so many projects I haven't got around to it!