Mol_PMB

Many thanks, that's really helpful. Is there a list somewhere of which of the IRM stock is '21mm ready' and which is harder work? I've seen some threads on regauging IRM A class and MM 141/181 which don't look too difficult given the right ingredients. Cheers, Mol

No CSET livery on the O gauge 88DS is surely a missed Irish opportunity? Though I only ever saw the prototype in pink/rust livery at Fenit.

I know this is an old thread but it seems the relevant place. As someone just re-starting in Irish modelling in 4mm scale, I'm pondering the gauge question. When I last modelled the Irish broad gauge about 30 years ago, I used EM gauge (18.2mm) as a compromise. At that time I was in my teens and to be honest my skills weren't up to it and I never got it working reliably - but that was a long time ago! My skills have improved and the Irish model market has moved on a lot since the days of Q kits and the early MIR offerings. I'm now revisiting the Irish scene (alongside other railway modelling interests in different scales/countries). I'm in that position where I have the opportunity to choose a track gauge again. In the thread above, lots of people said they would choose 21mm if they were starting again, but they were too invested in 16.5mm to change at a later stage. My initial thought was to stick with 16.5mm, it's the easy option, and it would allow me to run trains on several friends' layouts (I don't have a 16.5mm gauge layout myself, although I do have a 22.2mm gauge layout in an entirely different scale). But, the gauge compromise is a big one. Even 30 years ago in my teens it bothered me enough to go to EM as a half-way house. If I go to 21mm then I also need to build a dedicated Irish layout, which is a big step up in the commitment to Ireland, but not necessarily a bad thing. It might only be a small layout (e.g. Inglenook shunting yard) though. There's also the issue that there seem to be several different 21mm gauge 'standards' with regard to flangeways, BTB etc. At present, I would at least like to ensure that my models are "21mm ready" even if they are initially 16.5mm gauge. Most of this thread was written some years ago, and the market has moved a fair way since then. Can I buy 21mm gauge wheelsets to go in IRM or MM models? What other changes would be required? Do IRM broad gauge B4 bogies fit MM Cravens coaches, and is regauging the IRM bogies as simple as moving the wheels on the axles or is it more involved than that? Do the wagon kits (SSM, Provincial Models etc) enable 21mm gauge? I get the impression that some models are easier to convert than others, and some of the 4-wheel vehicles may be more challenging than the bogie wagons. I should say that I'm firmly in the diesel era, mid 70s to late 80s. Sorry for all the questions, I don't necessarily need detailed answers to all of them but a steer in the right direction would be very helpful. Cheers, Mol

Next time I get the scanner out I'll scan these then - I will have to do them in several parts. I do have the BREL diagram of the International brake, but I don't have anything relating to what CIE planned to do with it. I have fond memories of travelling in the International set to Galway, and even to Ennis (on the spare International carriage that sometimes turned up in a Mk3 rake). Somehow I don't think BREL's target market for the carriages was trundling along a single-track branch line with baby GM haulage! I'd be fascinated to see you build models of these!

Hey Mick, it’s a small world, good to see you on here too. As you can see, Irish isn’t a new interest for me, it’s just one that has been in the background for a couple of decades. I also enjoy working out the history of the prototypes. I hadn’t realised how far the 4mm Irish scene had moved forward in recent years, the IRM stuff is stunning but the wider array of smaller suppliers is also great. One challenge for me is the IRM approach of single batches and ‘buy it now or you’ll never see it again’. Hopefully I will find a secondhand A class eventually, and maybe a few wagon types I missed. I’ll see if I can dig out a few of my old Irish models or photos of them. Mol

I could scan these drawings properly if anyone would be interested. It’s a bit of a faff because they are printed on A2 or larger, and I only have an A4 scanner. I also have similar diagrams of the international train, the rest of the not-quite-450 train, and some Bell containers (which are much more detailed blueprints but harder to read). cheers, Mol

Many thanks for the info - that does help to clear up some things. To illustrate it, here's a nice photo from Ernie on Flickr, which shows a fitted H van in what looks like the Tralee-Cork Mail. I'm not sure what colour it is under the grime:

This is a page from 'Irish Railways Today' by Pender and Richards, published in 1967 so perhaps closer to being a primary source. It refers to the H vans including the batch fitted later, and that they were painted green.

That's interesting. And then there are photos like these two showing lengthy freight trains on the GNR main line, formed mostly of vac-braked stock, but the H van right at the front is the unfitted type. Unless it has been piped through, the train would be running entirely unfitted. That's a very odd way to form up a freight train, so perhaps some of them were through-piped. https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52075325365 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/52041976487

Sorry, I realised that I got my numbers mixed up in the previous post, but this has highlighted an inconsistency. Doyle and Hirsch say that: 18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes for running with passenger trains. 18762-18861 which were built in 1958 had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2... But this isn't consistent with Ernie's photo of grey 18836 dated 12th September 1960, which is clearly a vacuum braked vehicle. I can see the vac cylinder and crank, and the vac hose under the headstock, as well as the handbrake wheel (instead of lever). According to Doyle and Hirsch, this van was built unfitted and had vacuum brakes fitted in 1961/2, i.e. after the date of this photo... Similarly, the photo of 18861 in the near-black livery dated May 1958 when it was newly-built, shows the handwheel typical of the vac braked arrangement. The entry in Doyle & Hirsch may be misleading, or both photos may be wrongly dated? Is anyone aware of other sources of data on these vans as-built? Is there a CIE wagon diagram book, for example? One more observation on vac-braked H vans. Here's are links to two of Jonathan Allen's photos on Flickr, which I think both show the same van, 18778, in a sequence of photos of the Youghal freight train dated 1977: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948/in/album-72157714061711212/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462/in/album-72157714061711212 It has a distinctive white-painted brake handwheel, and is branded 'Vac Brake' but the end view shows that the vacuum hose is missing. The vac pipe and dummy are there, but the van appears to be running unfitted regardless of what it says on the side.

I think you're probably right that few or none were vac fitted, but there were two or three different people posting recollections of vac-fitted ones so maybe there were a few examples? On the topic of the atypical, I have finally found a photo clearly showing the brown chassis variant, when it was clean enough to be clearly brown paint rather than just dirt. Link to Jonathan Allen's photo on Flickr here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39075106620/in/album-72157714061635252 But most of them seem to have had grey chassis, even this example from Ernie, as late as 1987, is grey: Other mid-1980s examples in Ernie's albums (including beet-branded wagons) mostly look to have grey chassis, though it can be hard to tell under the dirt. A good dose of weathering is needed anyway, regardless of the nominal 'livery' you start with.

About 25 years ago I started my career in Derby, at the Litchurch Lane works which had been opened by the Midland Railway and still exists today as part of the Alstom empire. In the 1990s and 2000s the name on the gate seemed to change almost annually! Anyway, one quiet afternoon I hid myself away in the Microfiche viewing room and trawled through the drawings for anything of Irish interest. The archive didn't go back very far, but did cover some interesting things in the 1970s and 1980s. For example, there are some nice drawings of the BELL containers built in Derby, and of the International Train demonstrator which was later sold to Irish Rail. But both of those really existed. Here are some drawings of rolling stock for NIR that didn't see the light of day, or at least not in quite this form. Might be of some interest to those who like 'what if' models. Some of these are related to the 1980 additional Enterprise coaches, for which BREL proposed to build new stock but eventually NIR bought second-hand vehicles from BR. 'Shortie' Mk3, with windows like a Class 317 EMU: Somewhat like a Mk2a, but with inset, inward-opening doors more like the Mk2 Pullmans: This is a drawing for a modification to convert a Mk2b BFK to a brake generator buffet car: And finally, an early scheme for what became the Castle class, but with a large van area in the power car and a different arrangement of doors. This was more like the power car of 210001 than what was eventually built for NIR:

Hi Derek, I've never actually lived in Ireland but visited for 2 weeks every year on family holidays from the mid 1970s to late 1990s. We always stayed at 'Trinaderry' farm which was in the hamlet of Barefield near Ennis. So Limerick was our nearest city and (at the time) nearest railway station with passenger trains. Ennis just had freight for most of the 1980s, I think there was a twice-weekly passenger train from 1989? Fertiliser train at Ennis; container traffic was still busy here too. And this was Limerick back in the day, tons of freight, baby GMs and Park Royals on the locals, sometimes Cravens: I became quite familiar with Limerick, and on later visits to Ireland with railway enthusiast friends we usually stayed in the Railway Hotel (which I believe has now closed). In the early 2000s it was handy for an early breakfast before getting some 141 haulage on the 0705 Ballybrophy train, or the 0725 to the Junction.

I expect the green ones would have been a subset of those built with vac brakes from new, which were 18542-18861 according to Doyle & Hirsch, and the entry suggests that the vac-fitted batch were completed in early 1958 (because the subsequent numbered batch 18762-18861 are stated as being built in 1958). The green one linked above is number 18829 (towards the end of the vac-fitted batch), shown in 1962. Here's 18836, just a few numbers further on in the sequence, one of Ernie's photos on Flickr. This is dated 1960 and it seems to have a couple of years' worth of grime on it, so this was probably grey from new. (incidentally, note the green snail on the other van) 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 1 p. 98 shows 18861 in a very dark colour, looking very clean and new, in May 1958 (when it would have been pretty new). In fact Ernie's got the same photo on Flickr, here: This was the last one built vac-fitted. What colour is it? At first I thought it could be a dark green (like the carriages) but it's not late 50's CIE green and I would suggest it's not far off black. Is this another livery option? 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 2 p. 13 shows a green one with black ends, but only the top half is visible (so no number). It's possible that the different colour of the end may enable more green ones to be identified in black and white photos. This photo from Ernie shows almost the same scene as the photo in the book, but a moment earlier or later. The van hidden behind Sambo is a green one, whereas the ones on the left and the right are grey: On that topic, then this photo is interesting, as it shows two fitted H vans in a mail train, and the visible end looks a lot darker than the sides. The nearer one appears to be 18774 but I can't make out the second one. The date is 1961: Anyway, I think I'm talking myself into buying some H vans before they all disappear!

I started looking through Ernie's photos on Flickr in the hope of finding a fitted corrugated wagon. I haven't found one yet, but I have found some examples with a different hand brake arrangement, which is quite interesting. This first photo shows the arrangement as represented by the IRM models, and illustrated in the Doyle & Hirsch stock books. This was also used on the unfitted H vans. On each side, there is a push rod to a single brake shoe inboard of the left-hand wheel, connected by a crank only to the brake lever on the same side. Wagon 12359 in 1959: This one, on the other hand, has a brake shoe outboard of the left-hand wheel, and what appears to be a pull rod running between the wheels. It appears that there is another brake shoe on the far side, left hand end, and a crosspiece connecting them. There are no brake shoes inboard of the wheels: This is only a partial view, but a close-up, again showing a wagon with a brake shoe outboard of the wheel: This photo shows the crosspiece connecting the two brake shoes at this end of the wagon: Which can also be seen here, a bit less clearly: And here. None of these wagons have vac brake cylinders or pipes, it's just a different configuration of the handbrake: This pair of wagons have the same arrangement. On all these photos it's very hard to see if it's the same both ends, but I expect it is and these wagons therefore have 4 brake shoes (rather than 2 on the type modelled by IRM). On the other hand, the fitted H vans have full clasp brakes with 8 brake shoes and a handwheel instead of a lever, as shown in this snail-liveried example: Whereas the Palvans had a 4-shoe Morton vac braked arrangement with the brake shoes inboard of the wheels, and a conventional lever brake: So the triangulated underframe may not have been quite as standardised as I'd thought!

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but not new to modelling. My real name is Paul but online I'm Mol_PMB which is based on my nickname and initials. Some of you may recognise me from the RMWeb forum. As a child in the late 1970s and the 1980s, we had a family holiday in Ireland every year. Normally about 10 days near Ennis (always at the same farmhouse B&B) plus a few days somewhere else, which was different each year. I was strongly into railways and modelling, and my first Irish models were a Lima 33 and a Mk1 coach in CIE livery, no doubt bought on one of our holidays. We used to visit the railway station at Ennis regularly on our holidays, although it was closed to passengers there was occasionally a freight train to be seen, and of course the West Clare 0-6-2T was plinthed there too. I think it was in 1987 when we found a poster advertising an excursion to Dublin by train, which would be happening a few days later. I was about 11 at the time and had just got my first camera. I begged and pleaded with my parents for us to go on it! Eventually they agreed. Our loco for the last leg from Limerick was A class 007. I had marked the rare occasion of a train ride in Ireland by wearing a jumper knitted by my mum, featuring a CIE train. Here I am with the real thing after arrival back at Ennis. Embarrassing now... I started more serious Irish modelling about this time, and got about half-way through building a model of Fenit in 4mm scale, EM gauge. Rolling stock included Q-kits locos, MTK carriages and MIR wagons, plus various kitbashed/converted items. But to be honest my modelling skills in my early teens weren't good enough, and the project foundered. I no longer have any of those models. My next attempt in my later teens was a model of Ballygawley on the Clogher Valley Railway, 4mm scale, 12mm gauge. My skills were improving and I think I still have some of the rolling stock including lots of wagons scratchbuilt on etched chassis, and a part-completed scratchbuild of the 2-6-2T. Life got in the way of this - a year out and then university, and my interests changed. Once I'd settled into employment, I decided to move up to O gauge. I mostly modelled British prototypes in 7mm scale, but I did try making a few Irish wagons and a coach in 6mm scale on 32mm gauge track. They were nice but I soon realised it was a dead end, and that was the last Irish modelling I did, about 20 years ago. I still have my 3 shelves of Irish railway books and retain an interest in the prototype; last year I visited the last of the Bord na Mona railways for a week: My major project at present is Swiss narrow gauge in 1:45, 22.2mm gauge track, but I also have a small O gauge layout based on the Manchester Ship Canal railways that were local to me. So why am I here, trawling the forum for information and inspiration? Well I blame Accurascale / Irish Railway Models! They've just announced those lovely NIR Hunslets, which have long been a favourite of mine. And then I discovered there are CIE Park Royal coaches on the way, which I have so many childhood memories of around Limerick. I have several friends with OO or HO scale layouts and I quite fancy putting together one or two Irish trains to run on them. But I'm also mulling over the possibility of a small shunting layout in 21mm gauge. Hmmm...

The LMS was using corrugated ends on vans from 1924 (D 1663), and later on open wagons of various types. Bulleid would have been familiar with these when he was working on the LNER and SR. It wouldn't be a big step to consider using corrugated sides as well. Bulleid was also widely travelled in Europe and no doubt obtained inspiration there too. On these wagons, the triangulated underframe and galvanised corrugated body were neat and efficient designs. On the other hand, the brakes appear remarkably crude, probably only effective as a parking brake. Were any opens built on the vacuum brake fitted underframe like the H vans?