Mol_PMB

One for @jhb171achill’s livery files. What colour is this sleeping car, I wonder? And what colour is the snail? The date is 1964. I may have a go at bidding on this lot of photos on ebay… https://ebay.io/m/VJGODW

Excellent. I now have visions of a set of iconic Irish 20' containers recreated - Bell, B&I and a CIE orange one. Maybe in conjunction with a re-issue of the models from IRM / C-rail?

Lovely photos by the way - thanks again! The clerestory brake (tri-) compo 854 is a super vehicle - would make a lovely model and it would fit my 50’ underframe. Built in 1901, there were 5 of these with the last withdrawn in 1959. Although not gangwayed, all compartments had access to a lavatory. Early 1950s plain dark green livery. Note that some of the wheelsets have been replaced with newer all-steel ones; they would originally have been partly wooden Mansell wheels. The 6-wheel third might be 655. Not many of these survived so late; this one has been partly re-panelled and retains the elaborately lined green livery of the late 1940s. Note also 211D on the left.

They identify smoking compartments (rather than non-smoking). They also advertise Wills Gold Flake tobacco. Early to mid 1950s period, some were still around in 1960. Some Park Royals had them. I have had some custom transfers made for them!

I think both kits’ bogie sideframes are stretched slightly to suit the longer wheelbase of the SD9 or HO scale Deltic which are about 5-6mm longer than the true B101 wheelbase. So if you had a bogie of the correct wheelbase (which is unusually short) then the supplied sideframes would not line up with the wheels.

Sorry to hear that. seems really odd that several controllers are all giving problems that you haven’t had before. Is it possible there’s a gremlin in the layout wiring - something other than the controllers? Maybe a connection has gone high resistance through corrosion? Have you got a loose piece of track you could test on to rule that out?

Nicely done. Am I right in thinking that the Lima Deltic had HO scale bogies, making them too short for the Deltic model but conveniently a better match for the B101? as a reminder, there are some drawings here:

I bought one of the last SSM kits last year, but I confess I haven’t started it. Having looked at the parts and lots of photos and drawings of the real thing, I decided it would take a LOT of work to capture the shape of the real thing correctly, as well as the fine details on the slab sides. I think the same would be true of the Silver Fox model. I admire those who have put in that work to produce a decent model - there are some nice examples on forum threads. I did mull over the idea of doing entire etched sides, or even a complete etched body kit, but there are challenges there too. I wonder whether 3D printed ends and etched sides/roof wrapper would be the optimum. Whatever method is used, one of the biggest challenges is the face - it is not as flat as it looks, there are lots of subtle curves, facets and rebates.

Thanks for the update. This trip was tempting me, but I had held off booking travel and accommodation until I was sure it was going ahead.

Some CDR railcar trailers were 4-wheelers, do they count as coaches? Where are you drawing the line between railways and tramways? Arguably S&S is already on the tramway side. In which case Giant’s Causeway and C&VBT should be considered.

I have done exactly that. Maybe I’ve misunderstood it? Researching, writing and presenting this talk is something I’m doing for fun, not for monetary gain or because I want to get embroiled in a legal dispute! I’ll just drop the NLI images. There’s plenty of other good ones from IRRS, Ernie, Jonathan, Roger and my own collection.

That’s interesting- thanks JB. Having first approached them with an email enquiry, I was asked to fill in and sign a permission request form before they would even give me a price. That form has a load of small print terms and conditions at the back, and by submitting the signed form I would be agreeing to the terms. So even before I have got the images or paid for them, I have to promise to give them a rights-free copy of my ‘entire work’. It may be that these requirements are not regularly enforced, but I still can’t agree to them because my ‘entire work’ includes many images where the copyright belongs to others. For a few images I don’t think it’s worth it.

As you may know, I'm currently preparing a talk on the AEC Railcars to present to the IRRS Manchester Branch, and perhaps later to the Dublin Branch. I'm using almost 100 old photos from various sources, and I'm very grateful to the IRRS archives team, plus our own forum members such as Ernie and Jonathan Allen for permission to use their images for this specific purpose, along with others including Roger Joanes who have all happily given their permission. I was also hoping to use 4 or 5 images from the O'Dea collection held by the National Library of Ireland. As well as having to pay for these images (tens of euros per image), their terms require that I provide a copy of 'the entire work', i.e. my presentation, rights-free, to the NLI. Most of the copyright of the images in my presentation belongs to other people and organisations including those mentioned above. So they're not mine to give away. Also, why should I give away my work for free when they are charging me to use theirs? This seems an unfair and disproportionate requirement, and I cannot comply with it. My present approach is to delete the NLI images from my presentation and try to substitute alternatives, but there will be some topics that can not be so well described without them. I was wondering if anyone else (perhaps including the authors amongst us) had found a way through this minefield? Many thanks, Mol

There's a technical reason why those EMD engines don't like antifreeze. I can't remember exactly what it is, perhaps the glycol attacks the seals used. So they tend to be left idling if there's a risk of cold weather. Batteries don't like the cold either, of course, and the oil is thicker when cold making the engine harder to turn over. In more recent years, auxiliary heaters have been installed on some locos to keep temperatures above freezing while using less fuel than leaving the engine idling.

Lots of people at work sing the praises of AI. When it can do my job, I’ll retire. Looks like I’ll be working until I drop then. It can produce pretty but false pictures but it’s absolutely useless for anything requiring an accurate answer. Just do the sums on the dimensions it’s put on those sketches…

At least I think he only has one. Knowing Darius and his Hunslets, it wouldn’t surprise me if he has three!

Try comparing what it produced to the real drawing of the real thing! Also, look at its unit conversions…

Darius has one.

Hmm, so the ideal Irish heritage railway would be a horse-drawn one… Several options available.

Wow! I’ve got one of those I have no use for, but hadn’t anticipated it might be worth that much! It probably isn’t really. Surely the Cravens at £76 are a better deal even if they seem overpriced?

While waiting for a delivery from Wizard to enable me to complete the roof, I have built the bogies. Fortunately the weather isn't quite so impossibly hot today (29C rather than 34C), so I could contemplate soldering. Here are a few photos during construction: These are compensated on the Brassmasters principle. I still need to add the springy wires across the ends to make them a bit less floppy, but I think I'll do that after completing the basic painting and putting in the wheels. After an ultrasonic bath, I did a trial assembly and took some photos. Looking OK I think though not quite complete: And a size comparison with a modified IRM Park Royal. The prototypes were built over 50 years apart, but provided very similar accommodation - a third class open saloon in two parts, and gangways. The older coaches were built with 72 seats (compared to 82 for the Park Royal). Some later had 2 toilets added, reducing the seating to 64 (compared to 70 for the Park Royal with 2 toilets). There are some 1950s and 1960s photos around Cork showing these two types of coach coupled up in a train, and the relative sizes and heights of the models look about right. The length difference between a 50' coach and a 61'6" coach is quite significant. The older coach is much narrower as well, of course.

Thanks to Ernie for uploading some more excellent old photos this morning, showing a journey on the Valentia Harbour line. In 1902, the 10 gangwayed open thirds that are the subject of this thread, were supplied alongside 4 open brake thirds of identical dimensions, styling and construction. Originally they had gangways at the passenger end only, but later a second gangway was fitted at the van end. They were numbers 857 to 860, and survived until the 1960s - the last one going in 1966. I don't have a 'proper' drawing of these but I do have two diagrams and several good photos which would enable a brake third variant of the all-third model to be produced if people were interested. In Ernie's latest photos the leading coach in this train is one of these open brake thirds:

Rails have a load more Irish stuff on eBay including some scarcer models and a mix of overpriced and apparently good value. IRM 054, Murphy 086, a selection of Cravens, Weedspray train, various others.

I don't think I have any (I used to have some Lima ones but I think I chucked them), but I would note that there are several RTR options: Lima - old, 1:45 scale, but cheap Heljan - much newer but entirely the wrong shape. Likely to be moderately cheap but not convincing Darstaed - reasonable, probably more expensive than Heljan Dapol / Lionheart - very good, but more expensive and now sought after In most cases you get what you pay for, but don't be tempted to pay a lot for a Lima or Heljan one.

You are all too kind. I said I'd write a bit about Tea Car 841, and this is a case where my research is struggling to get the full picture. The story starts in the same way as 843, and here's a reminder of part of the diagram 71 in the IRRS Archives which is formally labelled for both 841 and 843. It carries a CIE stamp dated 1950 but the drawing itself looks older. The circular items shown on the centreline of the coach are identified as Flettner ventilators - the rotating vents sometimes seen on the roofs of old buses and caravans. The side elevation on this diagram shows the side without the pantry, and does not indicate any external modifications compared to the original vehicle. The 1946 and 1953 CIE carriages listing have 841 as a tea car with 58 seats (same as 843) and this is consistent with the diagram. IRRS Journal 9, Summer 1951, included the following paragraph describing the redecoration of 841, including the replacements of the fancy cast iron seat frames with wooden ones (possibly more like those now in 836 at Downpatrick). There is also an implication that the vehicle was repainted in plain dark green: From the Catering Department file in the IRRS archives, I made the following notes on 841: 841 Tea Car 11/47 conversion to electric lighting authorised, but not done 841 Tea Car 31/10/1950 Hotels Dept proposed to release when new diners/buffets built 841 Tea Car 22/09/1952 Diesel buffet car, Waterford route, gas lighting, 18 seats, proposed for scrapping 841 Tea Car 25/02/1953 Already converted for diesel trains, in service Dublin-Waterford 841 Tea Car 17/08/1954 Has now been returned to traffic dept, no longer a catering car 841 Tea Car 04/10/1954 Already handed back to traffic dept 841 Tea Car 04/11/1954 Already handed back to traffic dept. Fitted for diesel rail cars Note that the third reference listed it has having 18 seats. It was the catering department practice to only count the 'covers', i.e. seats at tables served from the counter. The diagram shows 18 seats at tables which is consistent. Unlike 843 and 838 where 16 or 15 seats were listed. This suggests that 841 may have had a slightly different layout. I have not found any photos that clearly show 841 in its tea car guise. The early AEC railcar photos mostly show tea cars 838 or 343, occasionally 350 or 74D. This is frustrating! There is an intriguing hand-drawn sketch in the IRRS Archives headed 'Buffet 841' which appears to suggest a different layout utilising only one seating bay, and that being at the end of the car with a 5-bay saloon (the other drawings show the pantry at the 4-bay saloon end). The plan would indicate a total of 64 seats: Additionally, one copy of the diagram for the unmodified coaches of this series has hand annotations to the end with the 5-bay saloon, suggesting a similar modification. These two sketches are a bit of a mystery and may just represent schemes that didn't come to pass. As with the other two tea cars, 841 was used in the early railcar services but once the new-build buffet cars had entered service in 1954 it was handed back to the traffic department and was no longer used as a catering car. However, it was not scrapped (as had been proposed in 1952) and remained in use as a railcar intermediate. In the IRRS Archives is a report by Bulleid into a fire on AEC railcar 2612 whilst working a Sligo to Dublin service on 31st August 1957. The train formation was given as: 2609 - 841 - 2612 + 2665 - 1141 - 2618. (N.B. I have a suspicion that 1141 is a typo for 1411) So 841 had a lucky escape and continued in service. In the 1961 carriage register, 841 is listed as a 56-seat standard class carriage, which would suggest that the pantry had not been converted back into seating accommodation, and that a further 2 seats had been removed. Perhaps the space was useful for luggage? Irish Railfans News #7, April 1961, has this mention of 841: On the last day of operation, Good Friday, March 31, full services were operated. A three coach railcar (2660/1410/2641) worked the up 08:25 from Bantry. The same set with an additional coach (841) inserted was on the 12:15 Albert Quay to Bantry and its return at 15:00. On the Clonakilty branch C212 hauled the morning passenger train and, running light to Ballinascarthy, worked two wagons down the Courtmacsherry branch. The same loco later worked the 15:00 mixed Clonakilty - Clonakilty Junction, the last train on the branch as the 19:00 down was replaced by road transport. On the Skibbereen line C216 was in command of the 13:30 to Baltimore and its return working at 14:20 to Drimoleague, with a train comprising compo 2098, LV 2709 and 2nd 1349. The “last train” from the public point of view was the 18:00 Cork - Bantry and was made up of the 12:15 set (2641/841/1410/2660). There are lots of photos and some cine film that show this last train on the West Cork, but not many show 841 clearly. Here are a selection of unclear pictures! What can we learn from these muddy views? Well it looks like the normal roof vents are only over one of the two saloons in the coach, but the roof furniture in the middle of the roof is busy all along, and there seems to be a central water tank at the other end of the roof (adjacent to the Park Royal). Some of those features match what we saw the photo of tea car 843 (style and location of roof tank) and 843 also had extra 'Flettner' rotating vents on the centreline of the roof which are marked on the diagram and probably present on 841 too (especially with the normal vents being removed). The photo of 843 also showed extra vents on the sides above the windows at the pantry end, but none of the photos of 841 are clear enough to show whether these were fitted - my gut feel is that they were absent or had been removed by 1961. So whereas 843 appears to have been converted back to original condition after its spell as a tea car, 841 seems to have retained some of its tea car features and a reduced seating capacity. I think these 1959 images from the Cork Digital Archive show either 841 or 843: https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1700, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1714, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1726, https://corkdigitalarchive.ie/items/show/1703 After 61 years in service, 841 was eventually withdrawn in 1963 and scrapped in 1964, displaced by the Cravens. Frustratingly, I haven't found quite enough information to be sure of its appearance in the 1950s and 1960s. I'd like to model it in this form, but I'm probably going to have to guess. Has anyone got a better photo of 841 stashed away somewhere?