Mol_PMB

This is what happens when you stop building your models! What kit were you working on again?

Carriages Repainted in Plain Dark Green Finally on the plain dark green theme, here are some examples of older carriages repainted in this scheme. IRRS Journal 9, Summer 1951, stated: All coaches are now being painted in one shade of dark green, and the class is shown on first class compartments only. These older vehicles retained their tarred canvas roofs in a near-black shade - no green roofs here. Otherwise the livery was as shown in my previous two posts; dark green sides with minimal lettering in EdN - just the running number, 1 on the first class doors, and 'GUARD' on his door. They had black ends and underframes. This photo was taken at Inchicore on 5th April 1952, and shows three coaches newly repainted in plain dark green: https://www.thetransportlibrary.co.uk/-/galleries/rail/lens-of-sutton-association/lens-of-sutton-association-irish-railways-part-2/-/medias/d694a9fe-c7f9-4823-9d78-e63ec4c947d9-cie-37m-6-wheel-birdcage-brake-third-coach-and-cie-185m-6-wheel This photo from Ernie dated 5th June 1956 shows several vans and carriages in the plain dark green scheme - no trace of lining or snails here: Seen in September 1956 is former CBSCR compo 54B nicely illustrating the 1 on the first class doors, but the former third class doors are blank: This IRRS image dated 1952 also shows the scheme nicely, on some freshly-painted 6-wheelers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093359 This is one of the few photos I've found that clearly shows the GUARD lettering on this livery. Note that it is at a lower level than the running number. 12 April 1955 and a nice shot of plain dark green bogie luggage compo 39M on the CBSC: To better illustrate the scheme, some colour images. This photo dated June 1952 shows a carriage freshly repainted in plain daek green at Inchicore, this is Colour Rail IR581 and the image is linked from their website: This photo was sold on ebay, and is also Colour Rail IR329. It shows a pair of MGWR 6-wheelers in June 1953: This photo was also sold on ebay, and is Colour Rail IR393. It shows two plain dark green coaches at Skibbereen on 4th September 1954. We have already seen how this dark green paint often became darker in service: This photo from Ernie is dated 23th April 1956 and shows a couple of plain dark green coaches in the sunshine at Cork: Also from Ernie and dated June 1956, a work-worn plain dark green coach is visible on the left as a new A class shunts gas tanks. Note the 1 digits on the first class doors: In July 1956, this photo at Galway shows the contrast between the former MGWR TPO in plain dark green, and a factory-fresh Park Royal behind. Again this is a colour rail image, FIE05600, linked from their website. I'll come back to this image when we come to discuss the Park Royal livery. This IRRS photo dates from 1959, and unusually shows a plain dark green clerestory coach that has retained the livery long enough to receive '2' class digits where previously the doors had been unmarked: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468874554 The plain dark green coaches seemed to linger longest around Cork, and @Westcorkrailway has already posted a few examples upthread. Here are a couple more from Ernie, showing how the aged and weathered plain dark green contrasted dramatically with the light greens of the late 1950s. The first one is dated April 1956 and the second one is circa 1960: However, many of the older plain dark green coaches had been withdrawn by the late 1950s, such as these two illustrated in 'Irish Railways in the 1950s and 1960s' (McCormack) p123; this is dated 1959: I'm sure that's plenty of images to illustrate the livery, but I'll finish with just one more from Ernie. This shows a 1930s GSR third repainted in plain dark green, and behind that a 1950s CIE compo which was built in plain dark green. The date is April 1955: The next chapter of the green livery story will involve the AEC railcars and I will need to do some more research, so please be patient.

How it used to be: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/406935521065

Any my very tenuous link to the GNR carriages represented R2D2, C3PO's companion in the films.

Impressive layout, and the sweeping curves look good - hopefully you can still reach the middle? Note to others: although the images don't show in the post, they can be viewed when downloaded.

Nice colour pic of the GSR liveried coach there too! Thank you.

1951/2 Narrow Gauge Stock Now, let's have a look at the narrow gauge stock. Here I can offer some colour images. IRRS Journal 8, Winter 1950/1, announced that: An order had been placed for four Walker rail cars, with Gardner engines, of the same type as those used on the County Donegal Joint Committee's Railway. These will be used for passenger traffic on the West Clare narrow gauge section. Delivery of them is expected to begin in the Spring. IRRS Journal 9, Summer 1951, had an update: Delivery is expected very shortly of the four Walker Diesel railcars for the W.C. section, and work is well advanced at Inchicore on the construction of bodies for them. Four trailers are being constructed at Inchicore for use with them: these consist of lengthened bus bodies mounted on old T.&D. carriage underframes. Here's an IRRS photo of one of the railcars under construction at Inchicore on 13 August 1951: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509100124 IRRS Journal 10, Spring 1952: The four narrow gauge railcars have also been delivered and are numbered 286 to 289. Trailers for use with them have been built at Inchicore, and small luggage trailers at Limerick. At the time of writing, Nos. 286 and 287 have gone to the West Clare section, but are not yet in regular service. IRRS Journal 11, Autumn 1952: The narrow gauge Diesel cars (which have been renumbered 3386 to 3389) went into service on the West Clare section on March 17. Work is just starting on the new carriage bodies for the Cavan & Leitrim Section. Here's a photo from Ernie of a WCR railcar and trailer in use in 1953: Another view from Trainiac on Flickr: And a closer look at a trailer: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499205990 Here's the C&L 'bus coach' when it was still pretty new and clean: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510377667 So the bodies for the West Clare railcars and trailers, and the C&L 'bus coach' were built at Inchicore in 1951/2, at the same time as the main line coaches described in my previous post. It's no surprise that they received the same livery of plain dark green - this wasn't a local oddity but the standard CIE livery of that period. Because they were all third class, the only ornamentation was the vehicle number. One difference was that these vehicles also had green ends, probably because the body corners were curved and there wasn't a clear demarcation between the sides and ends. From the monochrome photos when these vehicles were new, we can clearly see that the roof was a similar tone to the sides and ends, so it may have been the same dark green. However, the roof domes appear a bit glossier than the rest of the roof. My impression is that most of the roof could have been either dark green or grey, but the roof domes were definitely dark green. Let's have a look at some colour images. On the front cover of 'Lost Lines Ireland' (Welbourn) we see this: 'Irish Railways in the 1950s and 1960s' (McCormack) p148 has this photo: This IRRS photo shows one of the WCR trailers in original livery in colour: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570903805 And this photo from Ernie shows the C&L coach in colour: So, when originally delivered from Inchicore around 1951/52, this narrow gauge stock was painted in basically the same plain dark green livery as the contemporary main line stock described in the previous post. Some of the West Clare railcars and trailers later received repaints in lighter green, and by the closure of the line the stock had a piebald appearance. None more so than 3387 which had a light green power unit and a dark green saloon, as seen in this photo from Ernie.

The 1950 Carriage Programme IRRS Journal 6, January 1950, noted: Materials are on order for 25 new coaches, which will be of a new type, for construction in 1950, and it is hoped ultimately to turn out 50 coaches per year. The board authorisation was for 25 composite coaches; what was actually constructed comprised the following: 6 composites 2124-2129 12 thirds 1339-1350 7 composites 2130-2136 All these vehicles had 7 compartments but the three batches were arranged differently. Whilst the ambition was to build these 25 coaches in 1950, followed by a further 50 in 1951, the reality was that it took until 1952 to deliver the initial 25 vehicles. The contemporary CIE annual reports state that the causes of delay were the difficulties in obtaining raw material, particularly steel, together with the effect of an Electricians’ strike at Inchicore. Because these were the first new coaches built at Inchicore since the 1930s, there was considerable interest in them in contemporary publications. There are useful descriptions and photos, although I have only found monochrome images of these vehicles in their original livery. IRRS Journal 8, Winter 1950/51, described the first of the new coaches in detail, including its livery and external details: They are painted dark green, with no lining or light green band, but relieved by bright aluminium strips round the windows. The roof is also green, with the exception of a narrow black strip in the centre. A new type of destination board is provided, which are placed above the end windows instead of along the top of the coach. These are in cast aluminium, with bright lettering on a blue background. Irish at one end of the coach and English at the other. ‘Irish Railways Since 1916’ (Baker) includes a publicity photo of the first batch of compos, dated March 1961 when they were brand new. This shows the plain dark green livery with no lining or snail, as described. The coach ends are clearly black. Reflected sunlight makes it hard to judge the roof colour but it is paler than black and the bodyside colour appears to continue above the cantrail onto the roof. ‘Rails around Cork and Kerry’ (Baker) p12 includes a closeup photo of compo 2125, illustrating the livery more clearly, as well as the destination board. This clearly shows the roof being the same colour as the bodyside, while the underframe and end fittings are black. ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham) p43 shows compo 2124 in April 1952, when it had been in traffic for one year. The roof, ends and underframe are weathered, but the bodyside has been kept clean. The only lettering comprises the vehicle number and a 1 on the first class door. IRRS Journal 9, Summer 1951, includes the following paragraphs: Of the 25 new carriages mentioned in the last issue, about 23 should be in service by the time this journal appears, in spite of delay in the delivery of fittings. All coaches are now being painted in one shade of dark green, and the class is shown on first class compartments only. A few years later, Irish Railfans News 1.2, April 1955, described the coaches built in the early 1950s, including the sentence which describes a change in the construction and panelling of the roof which would permit it to be painted like the body panels: The roofs of the coaches are formed by a continuation of the side panelling, a departure from the pre-war practice of separate tarred roofs. D.Kennedy’s article ‘Modern CIE Coaching Stock’ in IRRS Journal 37, June 1965, was written some years later but is a comprehensive reference. The article describes the constructional and interior details. With regard to the livery of the first batch of composites, the article states: The livery was dark bottle green without bands or lining, but relieved by the bright aluminium window frames. The earlier CIE practice of putting the emblem on either side was discontinued, but there were light green numerals on the 1st class doors. With the introduction of these compos, a new type of destination-indicator was brought into use. These, cast-aluminium with polished letters on a red background, are mounted on the roof rails beside the entrance doors; they are in pairs, one in Irish and one in English, respectively in Gaelic and Roman scripts. Also introduced at this time were the description plates on the coach ends. These small plates, of cast aluminium, show the coach number; type, number of seats in each class; tare weight. Another small oval aluminium plate was affixed to the underframe to show the building date. These features can be seen on the photos included above. The subsequent two batches of coaches are described more briefly; for the third class coaches the livery description is: All the improvements incorporated in the compos. were included, and the livery was bottle-green. And for the final batch, there is a comment: Drab the bottle green may have been, but as late as 1957 some of the 1951 compos. were observed looking little the worse for their long absence from the paint-shop. ‘Irish Broad Gauge Carriages’ (Coakham) p40 shows one of the thirds when brand new, and in the same plain dark green livery. In this case, the only transfers on the exterior of the coach were its running number. In the 1950s, some of these coaches were used on the Belfast-Dublin-Cork Enterprise, and other premium expresses. In an era when the other rolling stock was ancient, they stand out in photos. ‘The Works’ (Ryan) includes this photo of two thirds in a Galway express: ‘Railways in Ireland 1834-1984’ (Doyle & Hirsch) p99 shows a third in a Cork express: Compos 2130-2136 had 4 first class compartments and 3 thirds (reversing the proportions of the earlier batch). ‘The Railways of Ireland Past and Present: Dublin’ (Baker) includes a couple of good photos of these vehicles in service on the DSER in the mid 1950s: From ‘Dublin Railways Past and Present (Baker) p115, this photo dated June 1956 shows one of the 1952 compos in a train on the Cork main line; the plain dark green stands out in comparison to the adjacent buffet car. (Note: the apparent line on the lower bodyside is a reflection of the adjacent rail) Ernie’s collection on Flickr includes this view of a compo in an excursion train leaving Cork for Youghal: There are many more photos of these carriages in the IRRS albums, but I think I've probably got enough in this thread to provide a comprehensive illustration of their livery. I believe that this 1950 plain dark green livery used the same dark green colour as the 1940s lined green scheme, i.e. BS381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green. In some photos it looks a little lighter, but I suspect that was influenced by the vehicles being newer and their flush sides more easily cleaned. It’s possible that different primers/undercoats used on the steel body influenced the topcoat compared to the older wooden-bodied coaches. Transfers were used for the running number digits and 1 class designations. On the 1940s lined green livery, the running numbers were in dark green on the EdN waistband. However, for the 1950 plain dark green livery the numbers were in EdN, with a 1/8” gold outline. The transfer drawing 26848 includes a special note about this colour change for the 1950/51 carriages and the railcars. I believe that the aluminium dimension plates and builders plates were red. In later years they certainly were. Most of these coaches retained their original livery for around 6-7 years, but were repainted in the late 1950s into lighter green schemes. P.S. Colour Rail image FIE4506, linked here from their website, shows one of the first batch of compos still in original livery on 28th July 1959: https://colourrail.co.uk/search/world-railways Next I will look at the narrow gauge stock which were painted in this scheme, followed by the older main line stock repainted in plain dark green.

1950 Plain Dark Green By the late 1940s it was clear that the formation of CIE as a company had not solved the financial problems of its predecessor the GSR. If the railway was to continue in any form long-term then significant investment was needed in new traction and rolling stock, and the railway need to become more efficient to reduce costs. In February 1949 it was decided that nationalisation was the proposed solution to the funding problem. but it took several years to implement and the new nationalised CIE board took charge on 1 June 1950. In the meantime, external consultants from England had been employed to recommend what the new investment should buy. The Milne report of 1948 proposed a fleet of diesel railcars for most passenger services and a batch of 50 new-build steam locos for freight (similar to what happened on the newly nationalised British Railways in the early 1950s). CIE’s own plan looked west to American technology, proposing complete and rapid dieselisation with a fleet of diesel-electric locomotives. Whichever route was followed, it was clear that the life-expired and disparate fleet had to be renewed. The Chief Mechanical Engineer’s role at CIE had been vacant since 1944 with responsibility shared between other staff. O.V.S. Bulleid, CME of the former Southern Railway, had been involved in the Milne report and on 1st October 1949 he was appointed ‘Consulting Mechanical Engineer’ to CIE at Inchicore. This was a holding position while the nationalised CIE board was formed, and in February 1951 he was confirmed as CME, a role he held until retirement in May 1958. Bulleid was to have a significant influence on rolling stock design and livery through the 1950s. [It is worth noting here that some published sources state that Bulleid came to Inchicore in 1954. That is incorrect. In 1950 memos are from J.J.Johnston, assistant CME, but after Bulleid’s formal appointment in early 1951 they are from O.V.S.Bulleid, CME.] In June 1950 the new CIE board was in place and the 1950 Transport Act had allocated £7 million of government funding. While they developed a longer-term strategy, the board quickly approved expenditure on small numbers of new carriages and diesel railcars. New rolling stock authorised by 25th October 1950 was as follows: Later in 1950, 4 narrow gauge diesel railcars were authorised, and in 1951 the order for main line railcars was increased to a total of 60. By March 1951, a total of £2.4 million had been committed to rolling stock renewal. The plans for carriages were to change significantly as we shall see in due course. The new board was tasked with modernising, improving efficiency and cutting costs. When planning budgets for the new rolling stock I can imagine questions being asked about the number of large transfers then being applied to every repainted carriage, and the skilled labour cost of painting the elaborate lining in 3 colours. The board probably also wanted to portray a modernised image to the travelling public. The new CME had come from the Southern Railway where the carriage livery was plain unlined green. I can’t say for sure, but it’s likely that these factors influenced a revision of the CIE carriage livery in 1950. I will present this livery as it was applied to: The first 25 new carriages built at Inchicore, nominally in the 1950 build programme Narrow gauge railcars and trailers, with bodies built at Inchicore Existing older main-line carriages repainted I’ll consider each of these groups in subsequent posts.

My stumbling block is that I learnt CAD in the era of 2 dimensions and my brain just can't work out how to draw in 3D. Old dog, new tricks etc. I can visualise how 2D components can be assembled into a 3D shape and so I consider myself competent at designing etched kits, laser-cut structures etc. For 3 dimensions I'm happy to buy from others whose brains work better than mine. Many thanks to all of you! I do have a good resouce of drawings, measurements and diagrams of Irish rolling stock, and happy to support others projects where I can.

Whilst considering the 1940s liveries, it is appropriate to look at CIE's narrow gauge lines, as well as a few oddballs on the main line. These used the same colour palette (dark green and EdN) and the same number and snail elements as the livery already described, but were generally simplified. They were probably applied locally rather than by Inchicore. I'm not a narrow gauge expert so hopefully others will set me straight if I've many any major errors here. The Schull & Skibbereen barely lasted into CIE days but managed to repaint a couple of its carriages in the new livery as shown in @Westcorkrailway's post above. Fry modelled one of these so we can see what it looked like in colour (Thanks again to @jhb171achill for facilitating the photos in the sunshine!). The livery was laid out similarly to the main line stock but with the EdN bands adjusted to suit the dimensions of the carriage. The C&L was slow to repaint their stock and this 1953 photo from Ernie appears to show stock still in GSR livery: Looking at the photos it seems that a couple of the original coaches recieved the dark green and EdN livery, but in this case the waist band of EdN was omitted - only the band at the cantrail was applied. I see no evidence of thin black and white edging to the lining, nor gold edging to the numbers or snails. This may all have been hand painted. In 1956, 3rd class was redesignated 2nd class. Most of the main line carriages still in the old 1940s livery retained their 3 digits until the whole vehicle was repainted (or withdrawn). But the C&L was unusual in adding the '2' digit to the old livery. It's not a standard transfer and was probably hand-painted. Meanwhile, on the West Clare a much plainer dark green scheme was used, with no EdN bands. However, the vehicles still featured class numerals 1 and 3, and a snail, in EdN. Unusually, the vehicle number was placed at the left-hand end rather than the right-hand end as was normal elsewhere. Some photos from Ernie illustrate the livery applied to the existing carriages. The first one is from around 1950 when they were freshly painted, the others are early to mid 1950s: Note that I will deal with the plain dark green liveries of the 'bus coaches' on the WC and C&L in a later post. On the main line network there were a few oddball liveries in the 1940s too. Most of these follow the standard main line livery but omit the lining, and may have fewer class digits than usual. They retain a snail, but those may be smaller than usual (either a smaller transfer as used on horseboxes, or painted as on wagons). They appear to be a cheaper alternative to the standard livery, probably applied at smaller works without expert painters. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508671501 dated 1948 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507885237 dated 1949 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782167 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508837868 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509063704 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509066644 dated 1950 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511647103 dated 1951 Another interesting example is this photo from Ernie, where we can see the old GSR class digits ghosting through under the CIE 3's. The snail is smaller than usual and there is no sign of any lining: All those oddballs are ancient rolling stock perhaps given an 'austerity' repaint at one of the smaller outstations, as mentioned by @jhb171achill in his post above. But this one is a mystery - GSR 1930s composite 2114, photographed in 1947, with class digits and snails but no lining. Unusually the number appears to be at the left hand end. Assuming that the date is correct, the vehicles either side are likely still in worn GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508888343 That concludes my story of the CIE livery in the 1940s, indeed it is true for most of the year 1950 too. Things were about to change, CIE would be nationalised and a revised livery would be introduced, but I'll leave that story for another day.

Many thanks, good finds. At least one of the Drumm sets was converted as an AEC railcar intermediate and was repainted to match.

Nice pics. Good reminder about the vehicles inherited from the GNR - CIE produced an updated livery drawing when the GNR stock was absorbed, which survives in the IRRS archives, and that was the final version of the green livery. I'll get to that in 1958 which is some weeks away, we have several more variants of the green livery to discuss first...

@Westcorkrailway, that photo at Courtmacsherry is excellent, showing 1 coach with the elaborately lined and lettered 1940s dark green, in a train otherwise in plain dark green. I've found another colour image of the late 1940s livery; this is Colour Rail image FIE05598 dated July 1956. Again the green appears to have darkened with age, which appears quite common with this livery. World Railways | International Train Photographs | Colour-Rail Thanks also for the narrow gauge images. My plan is that the next post will briefly address the 1940s livery on the narrow gauge, plus a few 1940s era 'oddballs' on the main line network. Then I will step into the 1950s, starting with the plain dark green. But all this takes a LOT of time to research, gathering and comparing contemporary documents and photos, so please bear with me. In the meantime please feel free to add any more colour (or otherwise interesting) images of the 1940s elaborately lined livery.

Thanks, that’s good to know on the paint colours. I agree that much of the older stock was purged in the mid-1950s and this would have seen off many vehicles in the late 1940s green livery with elaborate lining. This is why I started the thread looking at the composition of the fleet through the years to illustrate the purges. Also, with a repainting interval of around 7 years, coaches that had been painted in the late 1940s would be due for a repaint in the mid 1950s, so those which survived the purge would have received a new paint job then anyway.

Ah, excellent, I’d missed that post. That was my preferred option from the BS381C colours. So, BS381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green is confirmed for the dark green. It also helps to confirm that BS381C was the standard being used at that time. That will become useful in due course…

Here's a nice photo from Kevin Lane on Flickr. It's August 1957 and a lengthy railcar set trundles through the streets of Cork. Among the trailers are two compartment seconds of the 1350-1355 through-wired batch, and a compo, probably former Enterprise luggage compo 2129 which appears in correspondence in the IRRS archives: The distant power car is a Wedgehead, which would have been almost brand new.

I had a look for my B4 bogies this afternoon but failed to find them! I'm sure I bought a set, and they are with some other IRM accessories I got at the same time. They must be in one of those safe places. I'll have another look in the week - hopefully I'll get some inspiration about where I put them!

I forgot to add the photos of Fry's models, as contemporary examples of this livery. Note how he has painstakingly replicated the black and white lines bordering the EdN bands, and the gold outlines on the snails and class digits:

Some more pics in ‘The 5-minute Bell’:

Ironically, all the photos I've found of them seem to show the same side! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093944 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505927307 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203665 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50347175468/ But since they were built for the MGWR, which had platforms on both sides, it would be odd to only have doors on one side! Your next choice will be whether to have spoked wheels, disc wheels or half rice half chips...

You want a photo showing both sides at once?

Now, looking at the application of the lining and lettering. Again I'm relying heavily on the IRRS photos here. This 6-wheel brake composite shows most of the main elements. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509203855 At the waist is a band of EdN, edged in black, then a small gap of the underlying dark green, then a fine white line. At the cantrail is a broader band of EdN, which on most vehicles goes right up to the top of the side. The lower edge of it has the black/green/white edging, same as the waist. The class digits are on every passenger door, either 1 or 3. On a 6-wheeler, usually one snail near the middle. The GUARD label is set below the waist band. The running number is at the right-hand end of the waist band, dark green on the EdN band. Here's a gangwayed bogie coach as another example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508776551 The livery elements are the same, and we can see the running number a bit more clearly here. Bogie coaches usually had two snails spaced at roughly 1/3 and 2/3 positions. Usually the snail was placed in the centre of a panel or under the centre of a window. This asymmetric coach has forced unusual positions for the snails: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508909923 On 6-wheelers, if there was a door in the middle, then the snail would be placed to one side, but centred in a panel like this: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506934694 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782217 This bogie compartment coach shows just how many transfers were needed when there were lots of doors! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508744101 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509091095 Here are a few more examples: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507982732 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507782292 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507783152 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855512 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749006 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508749091 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772881 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511332328 Although the running number was placed near the right hand end, it was not put on doors. The door locations on these coaches have forced the running number to be further along: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746391 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508746831 Dining cars did not have a class designation on the doors, nor did they have any lettering such as 'buffet' 'diner', or 'staff only'. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507855727 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509170280 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509199030 This tea car had the catering portion at the left-hand end (with classless door) and the right-hand end of the carriage was a normal third class saloon: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172565 Ambulance cars were also anonymous: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093119 Mail vans and TPOs carried the post office lettering, and if fitted with a mailbox that carried the appropriate instructions: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507880537 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507981522 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748391 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508748866 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172140 Departmental vans and sleeping cars were also outshopped in this livery, and these usually did have extra lettering to describe their purpose. Their number was also in EdN on a dark green background, rather than on the waist band: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508772891 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509093334 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507984227/ On the end, at the corner near the running number, the tare weight of the carriage was applied in small EdN numerals, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499187525 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507885547 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509191254 My understanding is that the underframe and ends were painted black initially, though they would become discoloured with brownish brake dust and rail dirt. The roofs were tarred canvas which was also nominally black, although it would weather to a dark grey. The sides were in theory cleaned more often, but the contrast between these two carriages shows that it didn't always happen: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509173865 Hopefully that gives you enough info to put the transfers in the right place!

Richard Maclachlan at the IRRS has digitised a large number of drawings and documents from the archives and has made some of these available for purchase in electronic format. One of his documents is DCD 006.1 CIE Rolling Stock Painting and Lining Schedules.pdf and this contains several useful drawings relating to this late 1940s CIE livery. I won't reproduce those here and I would encourage you to support Richard's ongoing work by buying a download if you are interested. Dated 18th November 1946, drawing 26850 shows the 'flying snail' transfer for carriage stock in EdN with gold edging. The overall height of the EdN portion is 14", with a 1/4" gold line outside that on the circular portion. The 'wings' have a 1/8" gold edging. Drawing number 26848 268?? (last two digits illegible) shows the other transfers for carriage stock. Some of these are for the interior, and others are for NPCCS, but the relevant ones for the carriage exterior are: Class digits 1, 3: 12" high EdN with 1/8" gold edging GUARD: : 2.5" high EdN with 1/16" gold edging Vehicle numbers: 2.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging Number suffix letters: 1.5" high dark green with 1/8" gold edging Tare weight numbers, fractions and T: 2" high EdN The drawing also notes 'Eau-de-Nil to BSS 381C 1948 No 216' which looks right: Note that while transfers were used for the lettering, the lining was hand-painted. The shade of EdN on the transfers does not always exactly match the painted bands of EdN, even when new and especially when faded. The reason that the vehicle numbers are in dark green is that they were applied on top of the EdN waist band. Although dark green is mentioned several times on the transfer drawing, the precise shade is not given. Colour matching to surviving examples of the dark green paint by IRM and @jhb171achill showed that it was a good match to RAL 150 30 30, and I agree this looks a good match. This is the thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/8724-ral-numbers-for-authentic-railway-liveries/ RAL colour standards are of German origin and have developed over time; back in the 1940s 'RAL 150 30 30' was meaningless and Irish or British paint manufacturers would probably not have recognised the earlier RAL descriptions. The drawing gives the EdN colour reference according to British Standard BS 381C 1948, so it's reasonably likely that the dark green was also chosen from BS 381C 1948. That standard has many greens but the only ones that are close are the following shades: 226, 227, 276, 277: Edit: see posts below, the correct shade is confirmed as BS 381C 226 Mid Brunswick Green. https://www.rawlinspaints.com/content/british-standard-381c#_Toc15638682 It is also possible that the dark green was chosen from the earlier Colour Council (CC) or British Colour Council (BCC) ranges, which were referenced as the basis of CIE's later 1961 livery. Those standards gave the following dark greens: Bottle green CC 107, BCC 25 Cossack green BCC 105 (equivalent to BS 276 Lincoln green) Ivy green CC 252 Mallard Green CC 102 (equivalent to BS 226 Mid Brunswick green) Thistle Green CC 257 (equivalent to BS 227 Deep Brunswick green) https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.14074/page/n31/mode/2up?q=green It's hard to find comprehensive colour charts for these old colours online. However, BS 226, BS 227 and BS 276 all have equivalents in the older standard. Note that all the standards also include lighter shades of Brunswick green and we may come across those much later in the thread... I ordered a tin of CIE green from Phoenix Precision Paints, which arrived labelled 'P892 Tank Green (Dull)'. It's a dark, slightly bluish green that I would place close to BS381C 227 Deep Brunswick Green. I would say it's a reasonable representation for CIE dark green on a dullish day. If you want a slightly warmer shade as seen on a sunny day, then Humbrol 3 is a good bet, maybe a fraction too light. A mix of the two could be ideal, assuming they don't curdle!

CIE was formed in 1945 by merging the GSR with DUTC (which operated Dublin's buses) and the DUTC livery and logo were adopted for CIE. So perhaps it's appropriate to start with some contemporary DUTC buses to introduce CIE's first livery. The DUTC livery was predominantly dark green, with bands of a lighter green known as 'Eau de Nil' (water of the Nile) which I'll be abbreviating to EdN in this thread. Here's a great photo by Neil Smith on Flickr showing a preserved 1940s DUTC bus: Here's another photo from https://irishbuses.ie/100-years-of-buses-in-dublin/ showing the same bus amongst some others. One of the features of the dark green used in this livery is that its apparent 'warmth' is very dependent on the lighting. In sunshine it can look rich and warm, whereas in dull light it looks more blue and cold. The same is true of carriages painted in this livery. If we zoom in on Neil's photo, we can see that there are some other colours in the scheme. The EdN band is edged with black lining, and then a thin white line. Meanwhile, the flying snail logo is edged in gold. These same details were also used on the rail version: The very first edition of the IRRS Journal was published in June 1947 and included the following paragraph: No new coaching stock has appeared owing to the shortage of materials, so work has chiefly consisted in reconditioning and repairing the present stock. Large numbers of coaches have been painted in two shades of green (these include the former Pullmans) and some have been provided with new upholstery in pleasing shades of old rose for first class and orange for third class. In the late 1940s and early 1950s, colour film was extremely expensive and beyond the means of most railway photographers. It was also prone to deterioration over time. So it's hard to find good colour photos of this livery in railway use. Scroll up a few posts and you'll find a link to the train scenes in the film 'The Quiet Man' which provides the best contemporary colour evidence of this livery on railway carriages. The film was released in 1952 and I assume it was filmed the previous summer, when this livery was widespread. A major movie would have used good quality colour film, but there may well have been some additional lighting used which could influence the apparent shades of green. Nevertheless it's a good source. Look closely at these stills and you'll see the EdN band edged with black, and then a fine white line spaced a short distance away, just like on the bus: This colour photo from Trainiac on Flickr is dated July 1950, but the visible side of the coaches isn't very well lit. The leading coach is one of the 1930s GSR coaches similar to those we saw previously in GSR livery. Ernie's collection on Flickr includes a better-lit shot of a 6-wheeler dated 3 August 1953. Note that the van behind is in a filthy version of the same livery. This photo appeared on the front cover of IRRS journal 112, dated '1950s', but has an odd colour cast: The book 'Irish Traction in Colour' (Huntriss) includes two photos of the same train dated September 1958, including a very late survivor in this early livery: Note the contrasting shade of green compared to the other coach in the rake. We'll come to that later! Again from Ernie, and on the W&T section the former Clayton twin carriages are about to be withdrawn in April 1956, still carrying the first CIE livery: Again from Ernie, this photo of a rake of withdrawn 6-wheelers may be as late as 1960 and the carriage just right of centre still bears its 1940s livery. The weathering of this livery seems inconsistent - some (like the Claytons above) seem to have got darker, whereas others (like this 6-wheeler) seem to have faded: Another faded vehicle is this sleeping car, converted around 1947 and painted in this scheme, and still retaining it a decade later. The adjacent vehicle is in a later, lighter green scheme. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443501 That's all I've got for colour photos of this late 1940s livery, hopefully others will chip in with some more as @Westcorkrailway kindly did with the GSR. My next post will give some more details of this livery including the colours, lining, lettering and logo layout on a variety of coaches. I'll illustrate that with the much more numerous monochrome images.