Mol_PMB

You did well then, because I can’t complete my order as England isn’t a valid destination. No great problem, I don’t really need any more, but I would have bought some wagons and a few other bits and pieces.

There were 3 or 4 different variants - the chances are that the Howth one is a different type, so we could have two...? The type at Dromod has vertical channel ribs which might be a challenge to represent in 4mm scale.

Physically, the Duckhams container is similar to the CIE tank containers, as also used on your Ammonia barrier wagon kit. It would be nice if these were available separately... I'm developing some transfer artwork for some of the early containers. I was going to get them made as a one-off by Precision Decals, but if others are interested then I'm happy to discuss options. For many of the early containers, it's hard to find a suitable moulding to use as a basis. Which is why I've been modifying some of Arran's 20x8x8 boxes. However, the smooth-sided Bell 20x8x8 is directly suitable for Arran's moulding. A nice closeup view here in the Kennelly archive, the same type is seen on the wagons behind the track gang a couple of posts above. Kennelly Archive | Two Men With A Truck Work in progress on the transfer artwork: And I've got artwork for the CIE Insulated and Bulk Freight variants prepared too. I'm working on some early B+I, both blue stripe and red stripe. For something more 3-dimensional, a model of one of the CIE pre-ISO containers would be lovely. Anyone fancy a trip to Dromod with a tape measure?

Wow! I recall that at some time in my misguided youth I badly converted my orange one into a poor representation of a Class 26, and then later it was disposed of entirely.

Ah well, I was very tempted to get a few bits as well as some wagons. I’ve had a nagging email reminding me that I’ve left things in my cart without completing the order… Never mind, I’ll save my money and points for some other treats that I’m sure IRMAS will offer us.

Blue GM https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/276836767374?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=Nz1wcKbRSDi&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWnBnL0RQpq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

Ah well, so I’d better stop aspiring to those last few wagons. If north west Wales is too far away, then Manchester will be well out of contention.

Still no-one's put that last snail pack 2 out of its misery! It's odd - pack 1 sold out before the bargain sale, pack 2 is down to the last one, and pack 3 still has 29 available. Do people just buy the lowest-numbered pack, or the pack with fewest remaining? Pack 2 was the one I bought first and voided the warranty on, and I picked up pack 1 a few weeks ago and it's still in the box. I've still got a week to watch pack 3 selling out before I have to make a decision on that! Mol

Talking of the mid-1970s modifications, the externally visible ones were the removal of the exhaust/silencer and its cowl, and the fitting of the emergency vacuum brake dump valve pipework on the back of the cab. These mods were only applied to the locos still in traffic at the time (E403/4/8/9/12/14 but not E410), and photos of them in use with these mods are very hard to find. There aren't even that many photos of them after withdrawal. The best view post-withdrawal is this photo on Flickr by Jonathan Allen, showing E403 and E408 with the pipes on the cab back and the exhaust cowl removed: Murray Liston took a similar view from a slightly higher angle: From the IRRS archive, here's E408 in use at Heuston with the vac dump valve pipework just visible: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511291856/ And from Jonathan Allen again, E413 with the exhaust cowl removed, at Inchicore. Interestingly E413 isn't on the list of locos with this modification, and may never have re-entered traffic? Here's E412 with the exhaust cowl removed, and still in use: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511278573 There are several more photos of E403 as well: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569588917/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509328774/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570446021/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614884/ And this of E414: https://www.geograph.ie/photo/2856680 If anyone can point me towards more photos of the modified locos I'd be really pleased to see them. Especially a better view of the pipes on the back of the cab, or the cropped exhaust outlet on the bonnet top.

Today's progress has been an email discussion with Iain at 4Dmodelshop to perfect the artwork - a few extra tabs needed to maintain structural integrity of the etch, and a couple of holes changed to half-etch again to strengthen the etch in production. Iain's really good with this - as ever there's a balance between how many tabs are needed for production purposes, vs how many need to be cut and filed back in building the model. I have also placed some orders for the fairly small number of parts that can't be etched, as follows: Horns and windscreen wipers from A1 models Axlebox castings, handrail knobs, various bearings from Wizard models A selection of gears, gearboxes, motors and suspension parts from High Level models Buffers from Sutton Loco Works (it's really hard to find good large 4mm scale buffers these days - they're out of stock everywhere) I'm hoping that with some parts in front of me, I'll be able to finalise the chassis design. I think I've nearly mastered the 21mm gauge version (which is the one I want) but I appreciate the need to find an OO gauge solution too. I still need to source some 2mm diameter axle material, and probably some wheels too, though they can be standard wagon wheels. It's probably way too early to think about paint and transfers! I think I am going to start by building the trial etch as a silver one in original condition, probably E410 although E414 is also appealing. If I need to do some revisions and test-build again, I may do a black one, possibly go to the other end of their life and implement the mid-1970s modifications.

Today I've been working on a few ISO containers, having received a couple of nice parcels from Arran. Firstly I have painted the tops of some Bell containers. I'd done one of these previously in petunia, but I've bought 3 more now and they have also had their tops repainted into earlier colours - one more in petunia ans the other two in blue. I've used an old jar of BR blue which seems to be quite a good match - by the time they're weathered I'm sure it will blend in. Apart from the first one I did, they still need lettering on top, and I'll need to get some more transfers for that. Arran was also kind enough to sell me five of the 20x8x8 boxes unpainted, same as the Manchester Liners and OCL ones. These are flush-sided with lots of very fine rivet detail. I will paint one of them (unmodified) as an early Bell Ferry container in alloy with the chevrons logo, and the name in petunia. Another (with minor modifications to provide fork pockets) will be finished in early Mitsui OSK Lines livery using the C-rail decals. One of 'mine'! With the other three, I'm adding vertical ribs to the sides to represent the 'sheet and post' type of alloy container. The first one I did will become a white CIE insulated container. I scraped off the rivet detail and added ribs and extra strips at the base: Having done that, I decided it was actually easier to sand off all the side detail and reinstate the top and bottom ribs from microstrip. So I've adopted that approach for the last two boxes, which will become B+I containers - one in the 'blue stripe' B+I LINE, and the other in the 'red stripe' B+I FREIGHTWAYS liveries. They have different numbers of ribs too. Here's a work-in-progress: Next task with these is to clean, prime and paint the base colour. Also to complete the transfer artwork and get them ordered.

Well, could be moving the buffers on the 3 new corrugated wagons I bought a few weeks ago, and on the 3 'LB' flats that IRM found at the back of the warehouse. Or I could be moving the buffers on the 6 'H' vans I'm expecting to arrive soon. At present, while I wait for my E class etch to arrive, I'm modifying a load of Arran's containers because they aren't precisely the ones I want to put on my wagons... Sometimes I wish my OCD wasn't quite as extreme! I do still have the IRM bargains web page open on another browser tab though, watching the numbers tick down. And I have EUR 37.30 worth of points...

I keep looking at those last packs of grey corrugated wagons, and wondering whether I really want to move another 12 (or 24) buffers...

A few more nice Irish container photos found whilst browsing t'interweb... From the RPSI website, a whole row of pre-ISO side door containers on the 'Derry fitted'; they are lettered 'C.I.E. ROAD/RAIL MERCHANDISE SERVICES' and seem to be numbered in the 800s. Most are mounted on 25436-series flats but there's at least one 25201 series flat amongst them: From CIE's own website, a lovely image of early containers dated 1974 but I think it's earlier than that - more like 1970-71. Lots of alloy Bell boxes, both ribbed and flush-sided. I think the blindingly white stack on the right is new CIE insulated containers. Also visible is a CTI and a TRANSLODE (these turned up in Manchester too in the 1960s). Also to be seen centre-stage are the frameworks fitted to some 25436-series flat wagons, and on the left a couple of small demountable tanks: Back to the RPSI website, and a couple of 1972 images: In these we can see a variety of 20x8x8 boxes including CIE side-door and insulated, Irish Ferryways, Manchester Liners, Freightliner, and several variants of B+I: Another RPSI image in rather lurid colour, dated 1976, including a variety of early CIE, B+I, Bell and a Duckhams tank: In the IRRS archive, another photo of the days when Bell containers were alloy rather than blue and petunia: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526429592 Dialling the date back to 1969, some pre-ISO CIE containers in the wagon works yard at Limerick, with some livery variations: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511509608 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510446947 Whilst further north at Donegall Quay in 1960, some Belfast Steamship Co containers on the right: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508809449

I do wonder if the tan or white roundel was an Inchicore/Limerick thing? Inchicore built the Palvans with tan roundels, and judging by photos of Inchicore in the 1960s which seem to feature vast numbers of H vans, they seem to have done most of the H van overhauls. Perhaps there was a 'production line' type overhaul process? Limerick meanwhile seems to have been more focused on overhauling the older wagons, and especially those with wooden underframes, as shown in these NLI images from 1962 (interior shots) and 1964 (lineup of wagons newly painted with white roundels): https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306905 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306904 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307038 In the last photo all the visible wagons have white roundels, and all except one have wooden underframes. The one steel underframe wagon looks like an H van, but a closer inspection shows that it's a bulk grain van (catwalk on roof, extra gubbins on underframe). Other freight items to receive the tan roundel as standard were the swapbodies for Guinness: As ever, there were oddballs and exceptions. Here's a 20t brake van with tan roundel: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511648559 And a GNR cement van with a tan roundel (on the right): On the left here are a pair of H vans with white roundels (67C 42909 photo on Flickr): And then there are some H vans which don't seem to have any logo at all, as in this photo from Ernie: And that begs the question - what logo was put on wagons in the 1962/1963 era? Remember at this time, the roundel hadn't been invented yet, while locos and carriages were being outshopped in black'n'tan with no logo at all. Containers were being built with 'C.I.E.' in block letters rather than any logo. Did they keep putting snails on wagons, or just omit the logo entirely?

In case it is of interest, the firm I use for etchings is 4DModelshop: https://modelshop.co.uk/Static/WorkShop/Photo-Etching For a conventional kit-maker producing tens or hundreds of copies of something, they would be too expensive I'm sure. But they are prepared to do quantities as small as 1, and I find the quality to be very good. Delivery is usually about a week from placing the order, and Iain (their etcher) will check the artwork and offer feedback or make corrections if he can foresee any problems. So, as with any product, there's a balance of cost with quality/speed/minimum order. As an example, my E401 class etch is an A4 size sheet of 0.25mm nickel silver. (Other sizes, thicknesses and materials are available - see the web link above) The costs came out like this: Artwork setup £20.60 +VAT Filmwork: £57.70 +VAT Etch: £49.10 +VAT Delivery: £8.08 +VAT Total: £162.58 inc VAT However, more than half the cost is the setup. If I wanted more copies of the etch done then the cost per etch would be the £49.10 + VAT + delivery, which comes out just under £70 total per etch assuming they are posted one by one. So, you might consider that approach for small quantities of your D16? You would need to have or draw the artwork though, which is a time-consuming process but can be quite enjoyable. Mol

Thanks! That useful bit of info supports my theory about the cutouts being for lifting. That theory was based purely on my experience of lifting other types of locos and rolling stock. It’s odd that the E401s had plenty of lightweight lifting eyes for the bonnet and exhaust covers, yet no good provision for lifting the whole loco. Perhaps some bright spark thought it wouldn’t need maintenance!

I've stumbled across another photo of a green H van. Not the best image, but it is in colour and you can see the screw coupling too. From Dubdee on Flickr, dated 1965:

E416 is one of the camera-shy locos, and looking again at this photo (the only one I have found, and that was today) I've just realised it has a different livery variant from everything else, so my livery matrix is wrong... Seen here in 1972 on the RPSI website: https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/members/galleries/68/eblana-railtour-1972 This is black with white vee at each end. But it has no roundel on the side, and a large number on the cabside. It's an intermediate livery like a few of the black A and C class had, including A55 modelled by IRM. A 'normal' black E401 class would have a roundel and the side number would be smaller, and on both the cab and the bonnet, as shown in this nice view of E407 by David Heath in 1964: Another modification is also visible by comparing these two photos. As-built the locos had plain rectangular bufferbeams as seen on E407 (1964), but around 1970 they had notches cut in the bottom near each end, as seen on E416 (1972). I think this was so that they could be lifted more easily by crane. As the locos aged they seemed prone to axle failure and this simple mod may have been driven by the need to lift them more often. Here's a photo of the other end of E407 in 1970 with the notch looking newly-cut, and the paint not even touched up afterwards: http://www.hatspics.co.uk/photo_expanded.php?id=7008035 E402's notches look a bit neater in this 1972 photo by Jonathan Allen at Inchicore: I think all the locos still in traffic in 1970 received these notches. The model etch has half-etched notches in the back face of the bufferbeams and they can be filed out to represent the later condition.

Now let's cast our eyes upwards a bit to the radiator grilles themselves. As built on all 19 locos these were louvred in three panels, matching the style of the louvres in the bonnet side doors. Nicely illustrated in this photo by Ernie, and on this Transport Treasury photo: https://www.transporttreasury.com/jim-flint-jim-harbart-1001-1997/hab80c1ff#hab80c1ff These grilles seem to have been fixed in place, which would have made it awkward to inspect and maintain the radiators. Maybe they were supposed to be accessible from the door on the nose, or by removing part of the bonnet top. Photos indicate that most locos carried the original grilles until about 1962/3, and they were then replaced. E405 received a replacement grille while still in silver livery, and I haven't seen any photos of locos in BnT or black liveries with the original grilles - most were probably renewed at the same overhauls when the locos were repainted. The replacement type of grille is shown very clearly in Ernie's photo of E415 here, quite freshly repainted in BnT. Rather than being flush with the bonnet side, the grille is a separate component with a raised frame around it, and a fine mesh grille. This type of grille seems to have been fitted to most or all of the class: Variants on this included some locos with grilles partially blanked off, such as E402 here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506934384/ Or with even more blanked off, such as E417 in my previous post, or completely blanked off as E403 in a Casserley photo. I suspect the blanking plates may have been a seasonal thing. The other extreme was no grille at all, and no frame around the hole. E404 seems to have been like this for some years - you can see inside to the radiator panels themselves here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255280788/ The bonnet etch contains the original louvred grille, but this can be cut out and the later type of grille is provided as an overlay. The etch also provides a partially blanked off option, as on E402, and a set of plain frames to help you do your own thing for the grille. If you want to do E404 then you'll have to add the interior details yourself!

Let's start looking at some of the detail differences, and I'll start with a complex one in the hope that someone else will know something! At the front of the loco was the radiator, with a grille each side and a fan on the top. We'll come to the radiator grilles later. Underneath the radiator, on the left hand side of the loco, was the generator, belt-driven from the end of the engine. Below the radiator grille on the left hand side, some locos had a removable access panel for the generator, some had a small grille, and some had plain sheeting. In black livery, the difference between these is more obvious than you might think because it affects the positioning of the painted number in this area. In the other liveries, the presence of the panel itself is quite obvious. There aren't enough good photos of the LHS of the locos to make definite conclusions, but I think I've found a pattern. Have a look at this photo from Ernie, at Inchicore in the mid 1960s: Nearest, below the radiator grille, E402 has a removable panel with two handles and bolts round the edge. Then, E417 just has plain sheeting in this area, no access panel or grille. Next, E418 isn't very clear but the positioning of the number in this area suggests that it's like E417, a plain sheet. Finally, the fourth loco (unidentifiable but I can probably narrow it down to E415 or E419) has a louvred grille in this position. Careful study of many other photos has found that: In the earlier silver livery period, E403, E408 had the 'removable panel with two handles', whilst E407 had a removable panel without handles. In later years, the 'removable panel with two handles' was seen on E402, E403, E408, E410, E411, E412. E407 retained its panel without handles. E414 when new in silver had the louvred grille, by far the best view is this IRRS one by Sean O'Brien at Cork in 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511885685/ I have taken a tiny crop to show the grille: E419 in black had the grille too, as did one of the locos in BnT livery (in the distance in Ernie's photo above) In later years, the 'plain sheeting' was seen on E413, E417, E418. So my assumption is that: E401-E412 were built with the removable panel. Most had two handles (possibly added a bit later to make the panel easier to hold), but E407 never got the handles. E413-E419 were built with the grille, but in most cases it was plated over with plain sheeting later in life. The basic etch comes with the grille. That can be cut out and replaced with parts (also on the etch) to represent the removable panel, with or without handles. P.S. How's my OCD diagnosis doing?

G611s arrived in green but were painted BnT before entering service?

While I'm waiting for the etch to be produced, I've been updating my livery matrix and photo lists. Here's the livery matrix for the E401 class: The liveries carried were: Silver, with large green numerals on cabsides and both ends, no snail, red bufferbeams. Black and tan, without roundel, white vee on ends and white stripe at bonnet-top, large numerals on cabsides and both ends, red bufferbeams. Black, with roundel on bonnet sides, white vee on ends, small numerals on side of cab and bonnet, large numerals on ends, red bufferbeams, colour-coded pipework Black and tan, as (2) but with roundel It appears that none were painted green. Also, attached to this thread, is an Excel spreadsheet containing links/references to over 100 photos of the E401 class, including all class members. The dates range from construction (alongside CC1) in the 1950s to destruction by gas-axe in the 1980s. Despite that range and the quantity of photos, some of the class were very camera-shy. I expect that some locos spent long periods out of use, before they were officially stopped. E401_photolist.xlsx

I think they could on the old Fleischmann V60 model because all 3 axles seem to be gear-driven. Not sure about the newer V60 models - they may rely on the rods to transmit power. My main focus for the chassis is going to be an etched one to scale, but I'll keep an eye out for RTR donor options.

The chassis is a challenge and I am proposing to design an etched chassis for use with commercially available gears such as those from High Level. It's a challenge though as there are different gauges and some people prefer compensation, suspension or rigid. I suspect I will try and cater for some options but it may be impractical do do all. I'm hoping that by the time I've built the body I will have the inspiration to design the chassis! The wheelbase is 32mm + 20mm, so potentially one could use a 4-wheel motor bogie of either wheelbase and add an idler wheelset. Another option is a German V60 diesel shunter in HO scale, this has a wheelbase of 2650+1750mm in reality, which in 1:87 scales down to 30.5mm + 20.1mm, not far off. It has rod drive but in 16.5mm gauge the rods may fit between (and be hidden by) the E class sideframes. Older V60 models can be picked up fairly cheaply and the pictured example below seems to have geared drive to all wheels so the rods could be removed. New releases are pricey! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/135522349633 Other ideas/suggestions welcome!