Mol_PMB

Very nice work, but obviously fiddly! Well done.

I will take this as a challenge to find photos of more! In fact now I've had a quick search I do have some more... This IRRS photo dated 1946 only shows the right-hand part of an open wagon, but it has a small snail on it. Implication but not proof that it had 2 small snails. In this case the snail is on the top plank: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508940168/ These IRRS photos dated 1947 show 'convertible' van 1863 (complete view with 2 small snails) and 1823 (partial view of the right-hand part with a small snail): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509063589/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508987629/ A single small snail on the left-hand part of the side isn't proof of 2 snails, as seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508838653/ So there were certainly several wagons with two small snails. Photos from the late 1940s are scarce compared to the later years so this may have been the standard scheme initially. The single large snail (still in green / EdN) was definitely in use by 1946 so the application of two snail livery was short-lived. Replacing it with a single large snail wouldn't have saved any paint but maybe a few minutes of the painter's time.

When CIE was formed in 1945 to take over the public transport operations in Ireland, they seem to have spent the first 5 years repainting everything - to be fair it needed doing and they didn't have the budget for new-build. It wasn't until CIE was nationalised that they had a useful renewals budget to work with. Anyway, whilst working through my library a few months ago I found an interesting snippet in 'The Farranfore to Valentia Harbour Railway' volume 2 (Patrick O'Sullivan). There's a section on rolling stock liveries through the years, including wagons. Now we're normally familiar with one medium/large snail per wagon side, usually spanning two planks and typically about 12" high. So since reading the quote above I've been looking for a clear photo showing the original 1945 scheme with two small snails. I'd found several partial views but this is the first complete clear image I've found showing this livery, and it appears to match the description perfectly. This is former GSWR open wagon 10351 seen in 1948: If I come across more images of this 'two snail' wagon livery I'll add them to this thread. I wonder how widespread this scheme was and how long it lasted before being repainted? It would make an interesting variation to the later 'one snail' which of course could be seen in green or white.

There's a small batch of slides for sale on ebay at the moment which may be of interest to @Irishswissernie but for the purposes of this thread include this interesting view of D301: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/357738471513 Note that it is missing quite a few parts (rods, buffers) but appears freshly painted. A roundel on the end was an unusual feature for a black-liveried loco of any class. And a roundel in conjuction with large numbers on the side was also unusual. Photos indicate that only D301 had the bulge on the cab backsheet - I assume this was for a handbrake, and that the remaining D class had a vertically-mounted handwheel like the later E class. The white 'fringe' was also carried by D303, as can be seen in this slide also being offered on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/397129051046 Note that D304 had two sets of smaller numbers on the side, more like the black E class livery.

Thanks - that is interesting. As well as the Kockum builder's plate (their works number 15562 I think), note that there is another stamped plate on the left, it was probably enamelled but has been painted over so it's harder to read. The tanks were pressure vessels so they would have all carried registration plates and had their own individual number, because in the case that tanks and chassis were swapped around, the pressure vessel registration and inspection records needed to go with the tank not the chassis. I suspect the plate on the left may be associated with the pressure vessel testing and certification. On the early batches, the tanks were originally numbered on the catwalks from 001 upwards, these numbers may have been used by Irish Cement or CIE for maintenance and inspection purposes. Of course the wagons were numbered from 25050 upwards, so the tank number was 25049 less than the running number. Later there was a renumbering of the tanks (and presumably the paperwork) so that the tank number matched the last 3 digits of the running number. I think this was implemented before delivery of the last batch, so we would expect that wagon 25199 would have carried tank 199. Neither of these tank number series seem to match the Kockum's works numbers.

I was wondering whether IRM have any more photos of the green ones? Especially closeups of the livery differences (black vs green ends etc) and the different types of doors. Also it would be interesting to see how the green colour compares to A42 and A46. I do want to order a couple more, but would like to make an informed choice.

Many thanks for the kind words! I do feel i’ve cheated a bit compared to those who produce masterpieces hewn manually from the metal. Sorry for the delay in responding. You have probably enjoyed some peace and quiet on the forum while I’ve been off-grid for the past 2.5 weeks. I’m home now but with jetlag .

My carriage register spreadsheet gives details of the bogie type, underframe type and dimensions for CIE carriages: The triangulated underframe and 8’0” Commonwealth bogies used under the Park Royals were also used together under many other carriage types built in the 1954-1962 period, including those mentioned by John. There were also a few older vehicles with conventional underframes that were retro-fitted with 8’0” wheelbase Commonwealth bogies, such as 351, 1906, 1907, AM12. These bogies may have come from four of the 1954-built composites which are listed in the 1960s as having GSR bogies and a triangulated underframe. The last few timber-bodied coaches built by CIE in the 1962-1964 period had triangulated underframes with 8’6” wheelbase Commonwealth bogies more like those used in GB. Some ex-CIE carriage underframes of the triangulated type with Commonwealth bogies were sold to NIR for engineers’ use. So there are plenty of opportunities to use the Park Royal underframes and bogies for other vehicles. The bogies would be most useful if the triangulated underframe can also be provided as a spare.

A couple of photos from Ernie's excellent albums on Flickr - this one shows the GS livery on goods vans quite clearly: This is 1950s but most of the vans are 1930s or earlier - plenty of variety:

This is a Bachmann GWR goods van which bears a pretty good resemblance to some built by the GSWR just prior to being grouped into the GSR. The ends and the brake gear are a bit different, but put some GS transfers on the side it wouldn't look out of place.

I found another Park Royal in the early BnT livery. This is 1396 at Westport in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256999668/ The coach visible on the right of this shot dated 1964 could well be 2121, the ex-GSR compo we have seen already in this thread: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505734117/ I had been thinking there ought to be another odd-numbered AEC railcar to make up the pairs, and here is 2609 in early BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570791079/ Here's another view of a 4-wheel 31xx heating van, again with the number illegible: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506625116/ I'll leave it there for now, and let you all have some peace and quiet for a couple of weeks. I'm off on my hols...

I've stumbled across another shot of tail traffic behind an AEC railcar, at Claremorris in August 1958: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253434710 There are two 6-wheelers tagged on the back of the railcar: I think they are a 5-compartment third and a full brake.

I think this was the last update we had with (very mouth-watering) photos, about 10 months ago. The snack car images seem to show a slightly more developed version compared to the October 2024 update, but maybe it's just because they are closeups and we can see more detail. I know there have been some production changes during the gestation of this project including a move from one factory to another - I'm not sure whether this was before or after this last update, so I'm really looking forward to the new update.

And I'd like to build brake second driving trailer 1906 using some of mayner's etched sides, and this was fitted with 8'0" commonwealth bogies.

I hope so too, I have asked, but they were unable to confirm if it would be possible. I've been thinking about this, and many of the vehicles I might want to put the bogies under could also use the underframe and the roof from the Park Royals. So I'm thinking of getting a couple to be stripped as parts donors - ideally a few cheap 'mis-shapes' but I don't know if such things exist. However, a few extra bogies would be extremely useful for many projects. I expect that some of mine will end up being partially repainted too. Edit: Incidentally I was looking back at my orders placed in October/November 2024, and the update email sent by IRM on 7/11/2024. That email had more pictures than the update posted on the website on 25/10/2024. I'm not sure we've had much since then!

I've got 5 on order, and I think I will order another 2. But I would like to see the update to help me choose which. But I'm about to go on hols for a couple of weeks so will have to be patient until I get back.

@Mayner's 3D-printed wagons are excellent and include some suitable for your proposed period, but may no longer be available. If you have a bit of experience of kit-building, then the resin-cast kits for GNR goods vans from @leslie10646 can also be built as GSR or MGWR variants and would fit the bill very well. But again, I'm not sure whether they are still readily available. @Bob49 produces simple 3D-printed kits for GNR 4-plank and 6-plank opens which can also be completed as GSR or MGWR variants: It all depends on how accurate you want to be. At first glance some of the wagons above look very similar to 1930s era British wagons which are widely available RTR and could be repainted into GSR livery quite easily. Lots of goods vans is really what you need, and there was a fair variety. Although this photo of Ernie's is from the 1960s, many of the vans in that train on the right are from the 1930s or earlier:

No, that would be actual deliveries. I wonder which Christmas we'll have them by?

Finally for now, I'd better finish of the carriages. In the CIE photo at the top of the thread, we saw state saloon 351. Here's a closer view of it in early BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507232220 This vehicle was also through-wired for railcar operation, which may explain the proliferation of pipes and cables on the headstock Another older vehicle which gained the early BnT scheme was 845, a suburban 8-compartment third built by the GSWR in 1907 which survived in traffic until 1971. This 1969 photo shows it still carrying the early BnT livery applied in 1961/2: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510410312 One of the longer GSWR suburban 10-compartment thirds also received the early BnT livery, and is seen here in 1964 with a full complement of '2' class designations on every door. These coaches were also built in 1907-8 and those which survived beyond 1961 were 1068 and 1080, so this must be one of those two: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291011/ Finally, there some coaches being constructed new in the 1961-2 period, some of which were painted in the early BnT scheme. I haven't been able to confirm the original livery for diner 2402. The standards 1497-1503 weren't completed until late 1962 so they gained the standard BnT scheme. But the composites 2172-2179 were being constructed during the livery transition period, and 2172 entered traffic in the early BnT livery and carried the livery for a few years. I expect that some other carriages of this batch also got the early BnT scheme. 2172 was formed into the 1964 grand railtour set, so there are lots of photos of it! Here's one by Roger Joanes where the number is legible: A colour view from Ernie: This shows the unusual roof layout of these composites which were half-saloon, half-compartment: I've found one other view of a 2172-series composite in early BnT livery, but I can't quite read the number. My impression is that this is 2173: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508784719/ That's all I've got. To summarise, the following vehicles are known to have carried this early style of BnT: Locos: A6, A31 AEC railcars: 2603, 2628, 2630 Powered Intermediate railcars: at least three including 2661 Pre-CIE carriages: 351, 845, 2121, either 1068 or 1080 CIE carriages: 1340, 1403, 1414, 2172 Luggage/brake vans: 18, 2703, 2754 Steam heating vans: at least one 31xx 4-wheel van Total 20 There may have been more; I'd expect that most carriages outshopped from Sepetmber 1961 to early 1962 would have been painted in this style of BnT. Photos at Inchicore show that by May 1962 the painting style had changed to the more familiar deeper orange band with the numbers on an orange background.

A fair number of vans received the early BnT scheme too. I'll show them in this post. Several old 6-wheel vans received BnT but I think only one of them had the early variant with shallow orange band and numbers on black. That was van 18, which appears in these photos by Ernie and IRRS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419696369/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418637727/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506808386 Of the more modern 4-wheel tin vans, there were at least two luggage vans in early BnT. On the margin of this photo is 2703: This is 2754: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510261742 And there's an unidentifiable one here, it could be one of the two shown above, or another: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418626292/ Plus of course the CIE official image at the top of this thread shows two of them together. At least one of the 4-wheel heating vans also gained the early BnT scheme, but I haven't yet found a photo where its number is legible. Here are some photo links, mostly on a railtour in early 1962, but one at Inchicore: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419902815/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902455 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902460/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419513421/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284334/

Having looked at the railcars I'll move on to the locos. So far I have only found two locos which carried this early variant of BnT. A6 is the well-known one, and Barry Carse's book 'Irish Metro-Vick Diesels' has two excellent photos of it when freshly painted in September 1961. At first the two ends were treated differently, but by the time of the publicity photo at the top of this thread they were both the same - with red bufferbeams and white eyebrow. Some other photos of A6 when newly in traffic on 8th October 1961 are in the IRRS archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54340700855/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419669904/ Note how the orange band passes below the tablet-catcher mounting plates, and runs horizontal along the side of the loco. On the standard 1962 BnT, the orange band came a few inches higher up the side. On the later 1968 BnT, the loco ends were the same as the original 1961 variant, but the orange was even shallower on the bodyside - the depth transition was on the cab doors. Here's another photo of A6 in this early scheme, in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774321/ The other loco which received this early variant of BnT was A31, seen in these two photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772754 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774216 As yet I haven't found any other locos in this scheme. The other A, B101 and C class locos which received BnT in 1962-4 all had the deeper orange band. Fewer than half of each class recieved BnT before the plain black livery was introduced in 1964. Later of course the BnT livery was reintroduced on the re-engined locos from around 1968, but that was different again.

Also from Ernie, an example of green Park Royals in a loco-hauled train that is surely going to pass Kildare:

They were everywhere, even in green. These examples are from my AEC railcar trailers thread but they could be seen in loco-hauled trains too. By no means limited to suburban services. Ennis on a Sligo-Limerick service: Westport: GJH_CIE_AEC_Westport_08_Aug_1958 | [Photographer: Graham J H… | Flickr Cork Albert Quay:

The first image I posted in this thread included three 'powered intermediate' railcars in the early BnT livery. There were 9 of these in total, rebuilt from the 6 wedgehead railcars and 3 of the AEC railcars that had been damaged in accidents. The rebuilds were done in 1961/2 and the first 3 at least came out in green livery. At least 3 came out in early BnT, and I'm not sure about the others but they may have entered traffic in the later standard BnT. These two photos show partial views of 'powered intermediate' 2661 in the early BnT livery at Inchicore, with a green K801, in July 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255477235 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507224990 Just visible on the edge of this photo is one of same type. I think the quoted date of this photo may be dubious, but if it's correct then this pre-dates the repaint of A6. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419498281/ Also, several of the AEC railcars received this livery, and they seem to have been more photogenic. From Ernie, here's 2603 in 1963. Note that the curve of the orange is only just above the headlight, and the white number on the black portion is visible on the bodyside: 2628 also carried the early BnT livery and operated an IRRS railtour in 1963 in this scheme so there are several photos from different angles: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418616372 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419697329 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419865485 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508677663 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570940705 2630 also recieved the early BnT livery, as shown here. The next two vehicles in the train are both powered intermediates, one in green and the next in standard BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370 Another shot of 2630 dated August 1962 - the remainder of the train is green: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255514105 It looks as if 2630 was still carrying the early BnT livery in July 1965: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509153573

Back to the early BnT livery, I illustrated Park Royal 1403 already. It was not the only Park Royal to get this scheme, because this photo shows 1414 on an IRRS railtour on 5th May 1962: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902455 Like 1403, 1414 was one of the 12 Park Royals fitted to work as AEC railcar intermediates. There are a couple of other photos of that railtour which show the same vehicle, although the number isn't legible in these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570903305/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419513421/ Notably this train also included a steam heating van also in the early BnT livery, though its number is not legible. Two months later there was another railtour featuring a Park Royal in the early BnT livery. I haven't yet found a photo showing its number. It might have been 1403 or 1414 that we've seen already, or there might have been another one in this livery. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256982079/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419490861/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419491696 Another coach which was repainted in the early BnT was former GSR main line composite 2121 built in 1937, seen at Foxford on 15 June 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256772811/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257001818/ (as usual you'll need to be an IRRS member to view these images on their Flickr archive)