Mol_PMB

Having looked at the railcars I'll move on to the locos. So far I have only found two locos which carried this early variant of BnT. A6 is the well-known one, and Barry Carse's book 'Irish Metro-Vick Diesels' has two excellent photos of it when freshly painted in September 1961. At first the two ends were treated differently, but by the time of the publicity photo at the top of this thread they were both the same - with red bufferbeams and white eyebrow. Some other photos of A6 when newly in traffic on 8th October 1961 are in the IRRS archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54340700855/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419669904/ Note how the orange band passes below the tablet-catcher mounting plates, and runs horizontal along the side of the loco. On the standard 1962 BnT, the orange band came a few inches higher up the side. On the later 1968 BnT, the loco ends were the same as the original 1961 variant, but the orange was even shallower on the bodyside - the depth transition was on the cab doors. Here's another photo of A6 in this early scheme, in 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774321/ The other loco which received this early variant of BnT was A31, seen in these two photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772754 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256774216 As yet I haven't found any other locos in this scheme. The other A, B101 and C class locos which received BnT in 1962-4 all had the deeper orange band. Fewer than half of each class recieved BnT before the plain black livery was introduced in 1964. Later of course the BnT livery was reintroduced on the re-engined locos from around 1968, but that was different again.

Also from Ernie, an example of green Park Royals in a loco-hauled train that is surely going to pass Kildare:

They were everywhere, even in green. These examples are from my AEC railcar trailers thread but they could be seen in loco-hauled trains too. By no means limited to suburban services. Ennis on a Sligo-Limerick service: Westport: GJH_CIE_AEC_Westport_08_Aug_1958 | [Photographer: Graham J H… | Flickr Cork Albert Quay:

The first image I posted in this thread included three 'powered intermediate' railcars in the early BnT livery. There were 9 of these in total, rebuilt from the 6 wedgehead railcars and 3 of the AEC railcars that had been damaged in accidents. The rebuilds were done in 1961/2 and the first 3 at least came out in green livery. At least 3 came out in early BnT, and I'm not sure about the others but they may have entered traffic in the later standard BnT. These two photos show partial views of 'powered intermediate' 2661 in the early BnT livery at Inchicore, with a green K801, in July 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255477235 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507224990 Just visible on the edge of this photo is one of same type. I think the quoted date of this photo may be dubious, but if it's correct then this pre-dates the repaint of A6. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419498281/ Also, several of the AEC railcars received this livery, and they seem to have been more photogenic. From Ernie, here's 2603 in 1963. Note that the curve of the orange is only just above the headlight, and the white number on the black portion is visible on the bodyside: 2628 also carried the early BnT livery and operated an IRRS railtour in 1963 in this scheme so there are several photos from different angles: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54418616372 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419697329 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419865485 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508677663 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570940705 2630 also recieved the early BnT livery, as shown here. The next two vehicles in the train are both powered intermediates, one in green and the next in standard BnT: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370 Another shot of 2630 dated August 1962 - the remainder of the train is green: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255514105 It looks as if 2630 was still carrying the early BnT livery in July 1965: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509153573

Back to the early BnT livery, I illustrated Park Royal 1403 already. It was not the only Park Royal to get this scheme, because this photo shows 1414 on an IRRS railtour on 5th May 1962: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570902455 Like 1403, 1414 was one of the 12 Park Royals fitted to work as AEC railcar intermediates. There are a couple of other photos of that railtour which show the same vehicle, although the number isn't legible in these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570903305/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419513421/ Notably this train also included a steam heating van also in the early BnT livery, though its number is not legible. Two months later there was another railtour featuring a Park Royal in the early BnT livery. I haven't yet found a photo showing its number. It might have been 1403 or 1414 that we've seen already, or there might have been another one in this livery. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256982079/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419490861/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419491696 Another coach which was repainted in the early BnT was former GSR main line composite 2121 built in 1937, seen at Foxford on 15 June 1963: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256772811/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257001818/ (as usual you'll need to be an IRRS member to view these images on their Flickr archive)

Just imagine if it had been that pink instead of the orange! Do I recall correctly that there were blueish allsorts too? The RPSI nearly did that… (my terrible pic - I was young, please forgive me) Anyway, I’ll post some more pics of the very early BnT variant tomorrow. And one day, if the IRM Park Royals ever appear, I may do a partial repaint…

The clearest illustration of this early livery is an IRRS photo of compartment second 1340 dated 10 September 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511615449/ Considering the early date, the newly-painted green carriages adjacent, and the fact that the photo was taken at all, this could represent the first carriage repainted in the new livery. Another very early carriage repaint was Park Royal suburban 1403, seen here in an IRRS photo dated 8 October 1961: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54373564366/ Note how the top of the black band is several inches below the waist rib. On a Park Royal in 'normal' BnT livery, the waist rib was still black, but the orange band reached right up to the bottom of the waist rib. 1403 was one of the coaches through-wired for AEC railcar operation, though it is probably seen in a loco-hauled train in the linked photo. As well as the relatively shallow orange band with the numbers (at both ends of the carriage) on a black background above, note the bold '2' class digits on the doors of both 1340 and 1403. The use of '2' class digits was introduced on the (various shades of) green livery in 1956, and was continued onto the early Cravens coaches in 1964/65, but was then abandoned. Therefore the '2' digits are not specific to the very early BnT livery, but they are indicative of the general period 1956-1964. For example, here is brand new Cravens carriage 1507 in 1964, with the '2' class digits but the deeper orange band and the numbers on an orange background rather than a black background: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251291186/ By around 1965, the use of the '2' digits was discontinued. '1' digits for first class lasted much longer. More to follow tomorrow...

My recent research into AEC railcar trailers, and adding photo links to the CIE carriage register, has opened my eyes to a livery variation in the early months of the black and tan livery in late 1961 and the first months of 1962. To deal with this little tangent I thought I would start a thread to collate the information and photos I've found so far. Here is a photo which appears in CIE's 1962 annual report (published spring 1962), showing off a complete train in the brand new livery. The scheme had first appeared on A6, in experimental form, in late September 1961. The formation of the train is unusual - after A6 we see a 27xx tin luggage van, two 266x 'powered intermediate' railcars, state coach 351, another 266x, and another 27xx tin van. I suspect that when this photo was taken, CIE didn't have many vehicles painted in the new livery, and had to marshal together whatever was available for the photoshoot. What's not quite so obvious in this photo is that this early variant of the black and tan livery was different from the familiar scheme applied from spring 1962. The key differences were: The tan (orange) band was not so deep, leaving a broader black area below the windows. The vehicle number (in white numerals) was on the black area below the windows. On the normal black and tan livery, this area was tan (orange) and the white number was therefore on the orange portion. The tan band on the locomotive A6 was also not as deep, in fact it was intermediate in depth between the 1962 and 1968 styles. I think I have identified at least 20 vehicles painted in this early variant of the scheme. Some were new-builds and others were repaints of existing vehicles. They include: 2 locomotives 6 railcars 8 coaches 4 vans There may have been more. In this thread I'll post links to images of those that I have found so far. Just three examples to start with, thanks to Ernie. Ancient 6-wheel van number 18: Tin van 2703, just sneaking into the photo margin: And the second vehicle here, then new composite 2172, which I think was painted like this from new: (you can also compare the position of the orange band on the leading 6-wheel van, with that on van 18 in the earlier picture)

Hi Paul, Yes please, that would be very helpful if you could PM it to me. I'm only focusing on those vehicles which remained in traffic with CIE from 1961 onwards, so I can probably extract the relevant data from your spreadsheet for those vehicles. Best Regards, Paul P.S. I'll be away from home for most of the next 3 weeks, so there's no rush, it will be a while before I get any more data incorporated into my spreadsheet.

I'm sorry. I'll just stop posting ebay links then, if I'm going to get ridiculed each time. I thought they might be useful to someone. You're not comparing apples with apples. £195 today is a fair price compared to Euro 190 when new. Shipping and import duties are a separate matter which depends on where you live. For me, and for many other forum members who live in GB, it would cost a lot more to travel to Bray to buy them at whatever Wrenneire's price is.

I must have been very slow, it's taken me 30 years to realise why it was diesel loco numbers 206 to 209 that were allocated to the Enterprise...

A class on eBay for £195 BIN, two liveries available, green and IR: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/157335286665 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167804395244 Also various wagons but the wagon prices are steep in comparison.

Many thanks all. Extra thanks to @seagoebox who has sent me copious information on the former GNR carriages which will help me add detail to those entries. It will probably be a few weeks before I issue the next draft, there's plenty more work to do and I have a holiday to enjoy as well.

I thought Pulp Friction was by far the best of the names, but then I'm a wheel/rail interface engineer so there probably aren't many others that would understand how well this fits. Maybe next year...

I must confess I'm in danger of falling out with the MGWR. They seem to have had a separate number series for each type of carriage, so there were a dozen different vehicles numbered 1. And the GSR didn't help when they absorbed the MGWR stock, simply ending up with a dozen different carriages numbered 1M. Despite withdrawals over the years, there were still several vehicles with duplicate numbers in 1961. It doesn't help that the MGWR seems to have had an obsession with modifying carriages between firsts, thirds, compos, brakes etc, renumbering each time in the appropriate series. The GSR continued modifying them and the number series just becomes a very confusing mess. Foxtrot Foxtrot Sierra!

Thanks all. I will gradually work through adding links to photos of as many coaches as I can find. They will also help to illustrate the body, underframe and bogie styles and the changes over time. Of course, people photographed the unusual more than the familiar, so I've had no trouble finding photos of ALL the ambulance cars and many of the diners, but the ordinary seconds and compos are harder! Please - if you spot a mistake, let me know. I'm sure I've made some errors in transcribing the data, or in interpreting inconsistent or incomplete info.

I think it is time to release the first draft into the community. CIE_Carriage_Stock_Register_Draft1_19-09-2025.xlsx I hope this is of use. Any comments, corrections or additional information would be most welcome. Areas already identified for improvement, but awaiting more time and/or data, are as follows: Hyperlinks to connect the entries where vehicles have been rebuilt/renumbered More links or references to published photos of each carriage More information on inherited GNR carriages (weight, body, underframe, bogies and withdrawal dates) Review of consistency where vehicles have been reclassified without being renumbered More detail on the list of references Paul

The trio of IRCH vans are now complete, here they are: Roof view, with an IRM H van and the E class for context: A selection of wagons in older liveries (early CIE with eau-de-nil snail and numbers, and inherited GNR freshly rebranded): Here including a comparison with a CIE 'green van' alongside the older GNR goods van fitted for working in passenger trains:

I think these are now ready for the display cabinet, and eventually to run on a layout:

This photo by Jonathan Allen on Flickr shows 2172 (built 1961) in March 1975. It has the body panelling style of a conventional skin rather than a laminate one. I'm aware that many laminate coaches were re-panelled in the late 1970s, but this one was only 14 years old at the time of the photo, and just a few months after this photo was taken it was rebuilt into brake standard 1931. So I was wondering whether these composites were ever true laminates? They seem to have been quite camera-shy. Note also the first class branding on the windows - placed to ruin the view for those paying a premium!

I was wondering if you could use some DeLorean flux capacitor technology to get your 80 Class to travel back in time. But first you would have to get the 80 Class up to the critical speed of 88mph and I don’t think there’s a railway in Ireland long enough for the sloth-like acceleration of an 80 to reach that speed before it ran out of rails.

My normal practice is to make my own baseboards, but I thought I would try a kit this time. I placed an order a few weeks ago, and this afternoon the postie delivered this from Grainge & Hodder. Another thing to add to my list of jobs! These boards are intended for the Quartertown Mill plan I came up with last month. The IRCH goods vans are in their final stages now so I’ll get them finished before opening the woodwork.

I do rather like the look of Black Lion, which is very diminutive for a 4-4-0. It's almost dwarfed by the open wagon behind it. This image on the Transports of Delight website has a human for scale.

It's plane that this thread is starting to runway off topic.

The GSWR carriage diagrams book (Transport Research Associates) contains a list of the GSWR carriages which were renumbered in the A series, with numbers before and after. Obviously that only covers the GSWR vehicles, but I have incorporated data from this list into my spreadsheet. I agree there is confusion about withdrawal / scrapping dates, and I doubt I'll be able to resolve this completely. Many publications consider them to be equivalent, but there are plenty of examples where a coach was withdrawn from public service but then repurposed as an engineers' vehicle, being scrapped much later or not at all. The RPSI's 12-wheeler 861 is another example. The IRRS journals can be useful for contemporary reports of vehicles consigned to Sallins or Mullingar, but even then some vehicles escaped and in some cases the next issue of the journal has a note that a carriage is back in service after it had been reported as withdrawn. My spreadsheet is never going to be perfect - there are inconsistencies in the source data, and CIE itself was inconsistent in the way they classified and renumbered some vehicles. Plus there are opportunities for errors to creep in at every stage. But I hope it will be useful and I've certainly learnt a lot in compiling it. Another two questions for the carriage experts. 1. The small group of carriages that CIE built themselves in the early 1960s, almost alongside the Cravens, were: Firsts 1145-1146 Standards 1497-1503 Composites 2172-2179 Catering cars 2402-2403 Like the laminates that preceded them in the mid-late 1950s, these early 1960s coaches had triangulated underframes and commonwealth bogies, but their body profile had vertical sides. So my question relates to the body construction of these early 1960s coaches. Were they: True 'laminate' (i.e. laminated wood hoop and rib structure with aluminium-faced ply skin) Traditional wood-framed, steel-skinned construction as used in the early 1950s? Or some combination of the two? 2. What metal was used for the body structure and skin of the Park Royals? Steel Aluminium