Mol_PMB

That is interesting, and thanks for the information. Would love to see that photo if you can find it. Tomorrow night I sail to Belfast for a few days, and will return to this thread once I'm home next week.

I agree with everything you have said except this. Some of the GSR 1930s flush-sided stock gained this scheme in the late 1940s. But I have never found a photo of CIE-built stock in this livery and I can't imagine when or why it would have occurred - the timeline is wrong. I am strongly of the belief that painting stock in the elaborate 1940s scheme with 2 thick light green bands and fine lining either side, ceased around 1950/1951 and that this change coincided with nationalisation of CIE and the introduction of the first new-build stock. I agree on the livery, but I believe that they were using a post-1950 standard unlined dark green livery, with no snails and usually no '3' class designations, the same as applied to the new builds in 1951-1952.

It's a GSWR gangwayed compartment coach of the earlier type with arc roof and full panelling, probably built around 1900-1915 period. From the corridor side (which we see here) it's not so easy to tell the different classes apart. It looks like a third, which would have become a second (as shown) in 1956. Is that number 1124? Some vehicles of this basic type survived to get black and tan livery, and some were through-wired for use with AEC railcars.

As you may have spotted I'm skirting round the subject of the AEC railcars, with threads on trailers, tail traffic and wedgeheads. I'll get to the main subject eventually... 2625 and 2638 had striped roofs - I have found several photos of each of them. Another oddball was 2633 which had the external exhaust pipe on the front. My impression with the dark green livery is that CIE spent the years 1945-1950 painting all the carriages they inherited into the dark green with two thick light bands, with finer lining each side, snails and class designations on every door. I'm 99% certain this only applied to inherited stock, never on new build (there weren't any new build carriages in this period). Then in 1950, CIE was nationalised, a new board took over, they finally had a budget, and there were some policy changes. This led directly to the ordering of the AEC railcars and starting construction of new coaching stock. At the same time, the livery was modernised/simplified, initially very plain dark green*, no lining at all, no snail, no 3 class designations (though 1 was still applied to first class). Soon the waist line was added to match the railcars, but there weren't any snails on carriages in this livery, nor 3 class designations. This simplified livery was applied to almost all the new stock up to around 1955 and a little later in some cases. Photos indicate that the simplified dark green livery was also applied to some older stock, perhaps a few vehicles repainted in 1945/46 were in need of a further repaint by 1952/53. When I write about the pre-CIE railcar trailers we'll see some examples of that. I agree that some of the railcars seem to have got a lighter shade of green quite early, perhaps 1953/54, as did a few of their trailers. Some sources suggest that this was an experiment and that several shades of light/bright green were tried out at this time. Photos indicate that some were later repainted in dark green (caveat: could be date errors on photos placing them in the wrong sequence). What happened next in 1956 was that the livery for new stock changed to unpainted aluminium. (However, the Wedgehead railcars entered traffic in 1957 in dark green.) Obviously the aluminum skin couldn't be readily applied to most existing coaches and it seems that a 'standardised' light green became standard for repaints of older stock at this time. However, many coaches would have retained their older shades of green for some years. Also in 1956, third class was redesignated second, and 2 class digits were added on the new repaints as well as painted retrospectively on some older liveries. Bulleid retired in May 1958 which opened the door to replacing the silver/aluminium livery on both locos and coaches. Inchicore seems to have been keen to be rid of it, and a lot of locos and carriages were repainted in the new light green from 1958. * I am not 100% convinced that the shade of green was exactly the same as previously - it often looks a bit lighter and a bit browner than the 1940s shade but that may be caused by different undercoat, more modern paint formulation, less weathering, different lighting, better colour film etc. It could have been nominally the same shade.

Brief Intermission So far I have described and illustrated the various types of 1950s CIE built coaches, which were introduced around the same time as the AEC railcars and through-wired to work with them. A total of 60 coaches of this era were through-wired according to the list I'm using as a basis for this thread. There were several other batches of coaches built by CIE in the 1950s of which none were through-wired and hence are not included in the posts above: 2130-2136 compartment composite 2137-2161 compartment composite 1419-1428 main line Park Royal open second 1429-1443 open second 1444-1448 open second 1449-1496 open second 1909-1913 brake open second None of the heating, luggage or TPO vans were through-wired either. There remain several other groups of coaches that were through-wired to work with the AEC railcars. I'll look at these in the coming posts, but they can be summarised as follows: Ten 1960s coaches, listed as being through-wired but as yet I have found no photos of any of them in railcar sets. Ten old catering cars or saloons built by CIE's predecessors (GSWR, DSER, GSR), mostly used in railcar sets for just a couple of years until the CIE buffets entered service. Ten old passenger coaches built by CIE's predecessors (GSWR, GSR), some of which remained in use as railcar trailers surprisingly late. However, there will be a pause for a week or so before I resume this thread to look at those groups. You'll probably welcome a break from my diatribes.

On ebay, I spotted a photo of the above, and another project idea https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/396960256427 A yellow shed on wheels, a black and tan shed on wheels, and a plain vanilla shed!

Suburban Composites 2163-2169 In 1957, a batch of ten suburban composite coaches were built, numbered 2162-2171. These were of ‘laminate’ construction with the sides formed from aluminium-faced ply and the cross-members of laminated timber. They were delivered in unpainted aluminium ‘silver’ livery with the vehicle numbers and class designations in red. Of this group, only four carriages are listed as being through-wired to work with the AEC railcars: 2163, 2165, 2166, 2169. I think these were the only true ‘laminates’ that could work as railcar intermediates. They were introduced at the same time that first class seating was removed from the suburban AEC railcars so wiring these vehicles may have been necessary to provide both classes in suburban railcar trains. The underframes were of the triangulated design used under the Park Royals and the later buffet cars already described. The welded trusses were set behind the solebar, with the battery boxes and some diagonal braces in front of them. Commonwealth bogies were fitted, and originally the underframes and bogies were painted silver. The body had 5 bays of 2+2 first class seats, and 3 bays of rather cramped 3+3 second class seats. Doors opened into vestibules at each end and near the middle between the classes. No toilets were fitted. The body had the classic ‘laminate’ profile of a very wide bulbous-looking body. Whilst not in a railcar train, this photo from Ernie is an excellent illustration of the type in original livery, slightly grubby by 1959: One of these vehicles in a railcar set can be seen in original unpainted livery towards the distant end of this train: Other photos of these vehicles in railcar sets in their original unpainted livery can be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54256771121 And in these two book references: Irish Railways in Colour (Ferris) vol.2 p25 IRRS Journal no.187 p279 I have not yet found any photos of these coaches in railcar sets carrying later liveries such as green or black and tan. In 1970 all 10 vehicles were rebuilt into brake seconds 1914 to 1923; I assume that they lost their through-wiring during the rebuild as these vehicle numbers are not in the list of wired coaches and I have not found any photos of them in railcar sets.

This is what FOMO looks like:

Roadkill?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/396943187641 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/236242734454 https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/365773907754 All these three come up on my search and all are on the island of Ireland, though only one south of the border. Interesting to hear that they go quickly on Adverts.ie. Of course it may be a matter of price. I did wonder if Wrenneire might have a few in the stash! I almost wish I'd kept my old Q kits resin bodyshell from decades ago.

You've got to be significantly better than the existing product from Silver Fox or there's not much point. There are certainly areas for improvement in shape, reliability, robustness and livery. The desired standard for new locos these days (lights, sound, reliable mechanism, simple DCC interface etc) requires a lot more development and skill than just getting the bodyshell shape and details right (which previous C class models have mostly failed on). And a lot more investment up front before you get to a production run of saleable quality. IRM have said a C class will happen eventually, I'm willing to wait but will keep encouraging them along the way.

I wouldn't say there's no demand, the secondhand ones that come up for sale do sell, but it takes a while. They often hang around for a few weeks or more, so it's not as if people are rushing to buy them. Prices tend to be broadly comparable with original sale price so they're not bargain bin material, nor are they raising R@RE! collectable prices. I guess most Irish modellers bought enough for their needs when they first came out, and the number of people getting in to Irish modelling (like myself) is roughly balanced by the people selling off their collections. My understanding is that the sales of Hunslets and Queens have been good, perhaps as a result of cross-promotion from the Accurascale brand, so perhaps when those arrive we will see a surge in modellers looking to build an Irish collection or layout. For the new entrant to Irish modelling, one of the challenges is that at any one time, the availability of IRM locos and rolling stock doesn't provide a prototypical train. For example, IRM currently have Hunslets and Queens on pre-order, but the only IRM coaching stock available is Park Royals which don't suit either of those locos*. The range of wagons presently available is only marginally suitable for either loco type and there's no brake van (freight or passenger) to complete the trains. So you need to have patience or to scour the secondhand market, or to broaden your horizons to the smaller manufacturers and cottage-industry kits. Nothing wrong with that but it raises the bar to new entrants to Irish modelling and perhaps discourages purchases of the flagship locos? It will be interesting to see how the re-run of the cement bubbles sells. These were some of the most iconic Irish freight wagons and had become hard to find secondhand (but not impossible - I've picked up 3 sets of 3 over the past year at prices comparable to new ones). They might be a good weathervane to see if the trade winds are favourable for an A-class re-run. * Potentially there was a very short time-overlap of Queens and Park Royals. And if you throw away the body, you can prototypically couple the triangulated underframe of a Park Royal behind a Hunslet as an NIR PW flat. These are very niche applications, but my OCD feels the need to mention them.

I've bought 3 in the past year from various sources secondhand, and I'm not looking for any more - if I was I could have bought any livery of my choice over that period (though not perhaps all options of running number). There are 3 on ebay at the moment, including green and silver liveries. Rails of Sheffield had a batch of a dozen or so about 6 months ago, all liveries, but all now sold. Ellis Clark have them occasionally. Stoby has sold a few on here too.

Did Ireland have any ten-coupled locos? I can think of only 5 eight-coupled ones, mostly on the narrow gauge but there's one suitable for Portadown.

The A class are not too hard to pick up secondhand at present, with a bit of patience. Considering that the Park Royals are nominally suburban coaches, they would go much better with one of these... Or some of these... (photos linked from Flickr, by Jonathan Allen and Ernie)

Exciting times for you! My resolve is holding strong at present, despite seeing both the models and the real thing in Derby recently. This month's budget has mostly been blown on house maintenance and a long weekend in Belfast. I'll have to be patient with IRM as they have a lot on at present, but of course I already have a backlog of projects in the stash and hopefully some new antipodean kits to build soon.

I think a real elephant would be more appropriate there!

Park Royals The Park Royal coaches were designed by the same firm as the AEC railcars. However, in construction and appearance they were radically different – a lightweight metal body with exterior ribs, which was unusually wide in the central saloon section, but narrower at the end vestibules. This was mounted onto a triangulated steel underframe with commonwealth bogies. They were supplied to Inchicore in kit form and assembled there by CIE staff, over the period 1955 to 1956. The initial livery was dark green, including green ends. The sides had an eau-de-nil waist line and unpainted alloy window frames; they did not carry class designations at first. The underframes and bogies were painted silver when new, but became dirty very quickly. 40 Park Royals were built for suburban use, with seven bays of 10 seats in the main saloon, and a further 12 seats and standing room in the large vestibules; toilets were not fitted. They were numbered in the range 1379 to 1418. These photos from Ernie and IRRS show them when first in service: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506776188 Of these 40 coaches, the following 12 vehicles are listed as being through-wired for railcar use: 1397, 1398, 1399, 1400, 1402, 1403, 1407, 1409, 1410, 1411, 1414, 1418. The haphazard selection of numbers may indicate that they were retro-fitted as an afterthought, or perhaps more vehicles were fitted initially and some had lost their through-wiring by the time the list was prepared. The earliest photos I have found of a Park Royal in a railcar set are dated August 1956, including this one from Ernie. Note that this isn’t a suburban duty, and there are plenty of other photos showing suburban Park Royals in railcar sets on long-distance services: Of these 12 vehicles, 1407 was unique in being fitted with a driving cab, and was initially used on the W&T line. Here's a photo of it from Roger Joanes: There is also a photo in IRRS Journal no.104 p272. Compared to the other driving trailers 1906 and 1907 described in the previous post, the cab of 1407 is on the opposite side. Note that a further 10 Park Royals were built with toliets (and fewer seats) for main line use, but none of these were fitted to work with railcars. In June 1956, third class was redesignated second class. Many of the Park Royals received ‘2’ digits on their doors, on the original dark green livery, like this: Late 1950s repaints were in the light green livery with black ends and ‘2’ class designations. In the light green livery, the sides had an eau-de-nil waist line but the alloy window frames were painted over in green. This isn't a railcar trailer but illustrates the livery nicely: From 1962 the black and tan livery was applied, initially with class designations: This nice colour shot shows a railcar set with two Park Royal intermediates, one in light green and the other in black and tan. Note also the the railcar has the high-density suburban seating throughout, including what would have been the van area on the main-line railcars: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251527288 An unusual attempt to promote commuting by rail was applied to vehicle 1399 in 1963, seen here formed in a railcar set on suburban duties: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54372688542 The Park Royals were some of the last trailers used in AEC railcar sets in the early 1970s; by this time the 2nd class designations had been discontinued as shown in this photo by Jonathan Allen dated May 1975: Not many photos are close enough to read coach numbers, but here’s Park Royal 1410 with AEC 2604 in late 1971: https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44154&code=CH06260C There are plenty of other photos of these coaches in railcar sets over the years: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253254294 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253391335 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51899161679 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/51657586999 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772644 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253242693 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255088906 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255088941 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255321049 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255320994 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/53081076683 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449684534 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570446486 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570882915 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570770054 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511105076 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569589332 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447203319 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449780550 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570770114 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570882930 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527604884 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569589337 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39218949724/ https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44154&code=CH06260C https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39218949724/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39218950054 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/28149247259 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39218949504 Book references of photos showing these carriages in railcar sets are as follows: Railways in Ireland part 4: GS&W (Bairstow) p2 Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd) p38 Irish Railways in Colour (Ferris) vol.1 p87 Irish Railways in the 1950s and 1960s (McCormack) p125 The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p67 The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p67 IRRS Journal no.104 p272 West Cork Railways - Birth, Beauty and Betrayal (Larkin) cover+102 Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd) p136 The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p126 The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p131 Many of us are looking forward to the IRM models of the Park Royals being delivered soon. Of the available range: For the original mid-1950s darker green livery with green ends, 1388 could be renumbered 1398 to represent a through-wired carriage. I’m not sure what shade of green is being used for these; the samples shown to date do not include one in this livery. 1402 in light green with black ends is directly suitable for a late 1950s/early 1960s railcar set. 1400 and 1409 in black and tan were through-wired but are modelled in their ‘TL’ condition which post-dates their use as railcar trailers. If you wanted a black and tan vehicle then 1387 or 1413 are in the correct condition, and could be easily renumbered to 1397 or 1418, for example. The IRM range also includes 1407, the former driving trailer, but modelled much later in life. Edit: this IRRS photo shows 1403, one of the through-wired Park Royals but not here in a railcar set. The photo is dated October 1961 and is interesting because it shows the early black and tan livery variant with a shallower orange band, and running numbers on the black portion. The white stripe is also much deeper than usual. This livery variant was also applied to a few of the AEC railcars including some powered intermediates: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54373564366

Suburban Railcars Railcars 2600 to 2647 were intended for main line use and delivery of these was between March 1952 and February 1954, contemporary with most of the trailers described to date. The next ten AEC railcars were destined for suburban use, and were delivered later in 1954 with an extra 4 seats in place of the toilet compartment but otherwise similar to the main-line cars. The last two (2658 and 2659) entered service on the Waterford & Tramore section in September 1954 with high-density bus seating throughout. 2658 retained the normal van area with steam heating boiler, but 2659 had its van space replaced with additional seating. Over the next 3 years, all the suburban cars were modified to this specification, with 78 or 80 seats in the boiler-fitted cars, and 94 or 96 seats in the others. Consequently, the next groups of carriages to be through-wired for use with the railcars were suburban carriages. The biggest group of these was the Park Royals, which will be described in the next post.

Driving Trailers 1906 and 1907 To complete the set of early 1950s CIE coaches through-wired as railcar trailers, we have these two rather special but enigmatic vehicles. A batch of 5 brake open thirds were built in 1953 and numbered 1904 to 1908. They were similar to the open standards 1356 to 1371 described in a previous post, but had only 5 bays of seats and a brake compartment, complete with side duckets. Unlike later brake vehicles, the double doors to the van area were curved and flush with the sides - later batches had flat doors which were either inset or proud. They had the traditional trussed underframe and GSR bogies. There has been a lot of discussion of these vehicles on the forum already, in this thread: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/3975-brake-standards-1904-1908/ Some time around 1955-1956, coaches 1906 and 1907 from this batch were modified as driving trailers to work with the AEC railcars. A driving cab was added to the brake end, which required removal of the guard's ducket and changes to the door and window arrangement on the driver's side. A windscreen was added in the end, along with a triangle of headlights. Most obviously, the bogies were replaced with the commonwealth type - giving a very unusual combination of a traditional trussed underframe with commonwealth bogies. The intention was that these driving trailers could be used cab-to-cab within a longer railcar train, allowing the train to be split en route, but retaining through access along the train before it split. They could also enable a 2-car set to operate with one power car and one driving trailer. It should be noted that there are some inconsistencies in published sources about which coaches were converted from the batch of 5. Pender & Richards say 2 coaches, 1907 and 1908. However, later photos of 1908 prove that this was not converted. BSGSV's post in the thread linked above says 2 coaches, 1906 and 1907. Photographic evidence indicates this to be correct. Colin Holliday's list says 1 coach, 1906 The CIE carriage register published in 1969 shows only 1906 as through-wired There are plenty of photos of 1907 with the bogie, cab, window and headlight modifications in the 1960s and early 1970s, but not formed in railcar sets. It appears that 1906 and 1907 were converted, but that 1907 later lost its wiring and control equipment, but retained the other vestiges of the conversion. 1907 was destroyed in an accident in 1974 and this photo shows the cab side window and door arrangement which replaced the ducket on one side. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527598229 Here's a couple of photos showing an intact one, earlier in life: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253223013 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000306044 Note that the door position has also been moved compared to an unmodified one: These photos compare the other side, not much changed here apart from the bogies and headlight: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252109222/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52959572973 The only photo I've found of one of these actually in a railcar set is this lovely shot from Ernie, dated 8th June 1956. Here the carriage has its cab modifications but seems to be used a plain intermediate: There are several IRRS photos of 1907 with RPSI 184 or 186 around 1970, prior to 1907's destruction in an accident: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570456911 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569599852 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570654018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309423 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309418 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307782 What these show is that 1907 had been converted to a driving trailer in the same way as 1906 (cab, headlights, commonwealth bogies etc), but by 1970 it had lost its headlights and therefore was no longer functional as a driving trailer. Other internal control equipment may have been stripped out too, but we can't see that in the photos. That would tally with the entry in the coaching stock register for 1969 which shows only 1906 (not 1907) wired for use with the diesel railcars.

Just to keep the suspense going, here's another crop of a nice prototype pic showing two variants of green livery on Park Royals; the pic is dated 1961. At the front of the train, a light green carriage - including green-painted sliding window ventilators, EdN waist line and post-1956 '2' class designations on the doors. Black ends with red dimension plates. Broadly this matches the decorated sample we've seen already - light green, black ends, painted window ventilators. The class designations should be easy enough to add with transfers. Fourth in the train, a darker green Park Royal - with sliding window ventilators in unpainted aluminium, catching the sunlight here. EdN waist line; originally this livery did not have '2' class designations on the doors. Green ends are hard to make out in this photo but are well proven in other photos of the dark green livery (see below). We had one of Ernie's photos upthread showing the original darker green livery when new in 1956. Below is another of Ernie's dated 1959 showing the dark green livery like the 4th vehicle in the train above. No '2' on the doors, unpainted window vents, green ends. By this time the silver underframe was looking very grimy! The next instalment of my AEC Railcar Trailers thread will include the Park Royals so here's another of Ernie's pics showing the dark green livery, almost as original but with the '2' class designations added: Waiting with baited breath to see the IRM painted samples, and wondering whether I need to order some more, or possibly change one of my existing orders...

I certainly will do if I get a chance. I’m trying to cram a lot in with Whitehead, Downpatrick and Cultra in the 3 days I have available, plus hopefully a few good pubs in the evenings.

Terrible caption on this slide but might be of interest of a colour view of the UTA narrow gauge. https://ebay.us/m/doPkfo And this green A class is something I’ve been resisting for a week or so. The AI description says it’s sound fitted but on quizzing the seller they haven’t been able to confirm this, it’s from a deceased estate and the seller only has DC to test it on. So it’s either good value if sound fitted, or overpriced if not. https://ebay.us/m/vnmtze I’ve decided to save my money for an IRM C class, hoping they’re on the way eventually!

O gauge MGWR coach kit: https://ebay.us/m/qIKpbb Looks like someone’s just started it and given up, but could be a bargain?

Looks great. It’s possible I can drop by that exhibition on Sunday afternoon if I get round Cultra quickly. I’m beginning to wish I had given myself an extra day in Belfast!