Mol_PMB

I've had the Hunslet email, but the points from items bought on IRM haven't yet transferred over. I appreciate this is all taking some time to sort out. Perhaps IRM could post on here when they think it's all done, and we can then each check our AS accounts are correct?

Well there's a Bury 2-2-2 to consider, and the Atmospheric? Modelling the D&KR might would reduce the track gauge controversy. That's an advantage of the Lartigue too...

I was mulling over the weight issue too. Although these days getting 3000hp in a 120t diesel loco is commonplace, back in the 1940s even half that power was pushing the boundaries of the technology. For example the LMS twins 10000/1 were 1750hp and 127t each, and were intended to be used as a pair on the heaviest expresses. The same engine block was developed, in stages over 20 years, into a 3000hp unit. The Deltics of 1961 provided 3300hp in a 100t loco, which was world-beating performance at the time. But they used a complex and novel engine design design that proved unreliable in a rail traction application, and that engine was only a sketch on the drawing board in the 1940s. In sketching a 'might-have-been', I wonder whether they would have chosen a load-bearing chassis or a monocoque design with much of the strength in the bodyshell. The latter should have been lighter but more complex to design and providing less easy access for maintenance.

Incidentally, on the topic of SSM, the front page of their website isn't working for me: http://www.studio-scale-models.com For the sub-pages like the coaches the web pages do work... http://www.studio-scale-models.com/Coaches.shtml ... but the only Bredin coach listed is the mail van (which looks nice, but was unique). Was there a wider range available in the past?

That's pretty much what I suggested on RMweb!

Narrow gauge RTR is now growing quite rapidly in both 009 and what Bachmann are calling NG7 (formerly O-16.5), but is focusing on prototypes around 2' gauge, mostly Welsh. With the growth of TT120, the route to 00n3 is perhaps becoming a bit easier but I imagine it will be some years/decades before it catches up with 009. American 3' gauge modelling is well established but of course that's in HO or 1/4" scale.

It's interesting that on the RMweb side of the water, several people have asked what carriages they can buy to go with their 800. I have made some suggestions but this seems to be a gap that IRM should consider, even if it's a partnership with another manufacturer (like the Esso tanks) to provide some GB coaches in GSR livery?

I have also found a couple of photos of these GSWR corridor coaches in use as intermediates in AEC Railcar sets, which increases their potential usefulness even more. For example, in 'Railways in Ireland' part 3 (Bairstow), page 7 shows a 3-car AEC railcar set with a GSWR corridor as the intermediate, at Wicklow Murrough in 1957. The same book, page 26 shows a Rosslare-Dublin train at Enniscorthy in 1959, formed of Bulleid railcar 2664, a GSWR corridor, an AEC railcar and a tin van tacked on the back. I've been looking at the detail of the panelling and beading which is actually quite complex with multiple layers. I'm considering a way to do this as an etch with an overlay for the upper half, but a 3D printed solution might be better? Or maybe a combination - print the main bodyshell and add an etched overlay to the upper half? With oversized window openings in the 3D print, the glazing could be placed against the etch layer. This photo of Ernie's shows the layers quite well:

I am aware what type it is - I took the photo and travelled on railtour behind it. However, I disagree that it is irrelevant to the discussion of CIE's early diesel traction and @Mayner's original question about the Sulzers and CIE's early diesel plans. CIE 1100/1101 and the proposed six large twin-engined locos used Sulzer engines; in the mid-1930s their LDA series was one of the first European designs to evolve into something specifically designed for rail traction. The Swiss Bm4/4ii locos of 1939 were one of these early applications of Sulzer engines to rail traction. When CIE and their potential suppliers were investigating options in the early 1940s, they would have been a key reference. In J.J. Leckey's article on CIE's First Diesel Programme these Swiss locos get a specific mention, not just for the Sulzer engine but also their Brown-Boveri electrical equipment. Alongside 1100 and 1101, in 1945 CIE decided to order a 4-car diesel electric passenger train and this was intended to use the same Brown-Boveri electrical equipment as in these Swiss locos. The plan for the 4-car diesel unit was cancelled, but it does demonstrate their relevance to the early designs for Ireland. It's true that Bulleid had a strong preference for EMD designs for good reasons, and EMD initially proposed a 'type EX' 600hp A1A-A1A with styling similar to their 'BL2' for the US market.

That's a wonderful mental image! With the demise of Markits and the long delays at Ultrascale, I wonder whether this type of wheel be suitable for the 21mm gauge conversion?

This may also be useful: CIE 101 class, 1100, 1101, sulzer in eire This was an early Sulzer diesel loco from 1939, which has some family resemblance (curved cab front, 3 windows) to the Sulzer-engined locos built by BRCW for British Railways (e.g. Class 33) but nothing much in common with the Irish Sulzers (even though the B101s were also built by BRCW) so trying to infer a styling or appearance from contemporaries may be a flawed approach.

IRRS Journal Vol.14 No. 86, October 1981, contains two articles of relevance. 'Sulzer locomotives of CIE' by D Renehan and 'CIE's first diesel programme' by J J Leckey. No diagrams or artists impressions but some useful background. The book on CC1 has a few paragraphs (page 25). There seems to be rather more information published on the GNR's planned diesel fleet than CIE's early plans.

That's very interesting, because I had been puzzling over the arrangement of that second coach in Ernie's photo. This is a similar vehicle, quite possibly the same one: Also interesting to note that the one at Downpatrick has had a bogie swap and lost its footboards, changing the appearance somewhat. I think there were a variety of layouts for this 'family' of GSWR corridor carriages, although I'm fairly sure that the thirds were the most numerous. However, as yet I haven't found a list of types or numbers, nor any diagrams or drawings. I have an IRRS journal with a good article on GSR carriages, which mentions the thirds that were being built in the GSWR/GSR transition period. I don't have an equivalent article on GSWR carriages although I suspect there is something on that topic in the IRRS archives. The book 'Irish Broad Gauge Carriages', whilst useful, has a scope too broad to go into much detail on individual types. Based on photos... The full thirds were 1290 to 1322; plenty of photo links for these above; here's Ernie's photo of the corridor side of 1312: The RPSI has a full first 1142, the compartment side seen here: There was also a group of composites with two first class compartments in the middle, which included 2091 and 2094: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509172215 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509299340 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511165801 However, this appears to be a different sort of composite: This full brake 2544 may also be from the same family of vehicles: I'm not sure if there were brake thirds (or similar) of this family of corridor coaches - quite possibly. Introduced in the 1910s/20s, some lasted into the 1970s - a good 50-year life. They would have carried liveries of the GSWR and GSR, through two shades of CIE green, with the later survivors ending their lives in black and tan. So they might have a fairly wide appeal as a model. In the CIE era these GSWR corridor coaches could turn up in almost any sort of train - long distance, suburban or branch passenger/mixed trains. Hang them behind your 800, A class, C class, G class, J15, whatever!

I will be in Ireland in a few weeks time so there may still be an option there.

I’m keen - can you post to UK though? cheers, Mol

Thanks, that's very useful info! Here's a very nice photo of a timber train at Fenit. I'm saving my money for a C class (or three). I'm working on compiling a list of the various different freight traffics on the pier, and how they were carried. Also photo links where possible. Certainly open wagons with coal or timber, sometimes more sensitive cargo sheeted with tarps as you say - grain was another imported cargo which features in the Kennelly archive, in sacks and being loaded onto road transport but it could have easily gone by rail instead. A lot of photos show vans too: Fish was a major traffic in some years, I think I can justify a few vac-braked H vans to be loaded with fish and attached to the night mail from Tralee. Latterly the main export was Liebherr cranes, and that's still the case - there's a ship at Fenit right now loading crane parts. Photos suggest that those mostly came by road to Fenit even while the railway was still in use, but I am going to apply Rule 1. In 'Rails Around Dublin' (Donal Murray) page 70 there's a super photo of a train of Liebherr crane components at North Wall - the girders mounted on 25436 series flat wagons, overhanging the ends, and spaced apart by Bulleid 4-wheel flats used as runners. The date is about 1970. I have the ingredients for this in model form. I have also been looking at the types of ships which served Fenit and wondering whether my layout design should be increased in width to include a vessel...

And it's a proper 'Rule 1' collection - a whole host of different gauges, eras and regions of Ireland. Though if I had to pick a bit of the collection to model it might be the DeLorean overtaking the Bessbrook & Newry tramcar... (Are they still near each other and separate from the main railway hall? It's been a long time since I visited)

Not far off - for comparison this is a former GSR carriage which was preserved by the RPSI in GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511260053

At least one 6-wheeler in each of these: JMR_GSR_802_Kingsbridge_l1940s | [Photographer: John Macartn… | Flickr RNC_GSR_802_Limerick_Jct_22_May_1949 | [Photographer: Robin … | Flickr GNR set in Cork: DLGH_GSR_802_Glanmire_Rd_21_June_1951 | [Photographer: David… | Flickr Pullman in this set? RNC_GSR_801_Hazelhatch_4_May_1955 | [Photographer: Robin N C… | Flickr Typical mix of panelled and flush bogie stock: JoM_GSR_800_Straffan_m1950s (2) | [Photographer: John O'Mear… | Flickr "I'm Spartacus 800!" KAM_GSR_GNR_800_801_Inchicore_08_July_1963 | [Photographer: … | Flickr

Perhaps IRM need to add one of these to the product range - perfect for the Queens, and remained in use until about 1970. Four liveries to offer... GSWR Corridor Third - Irish Models - Irish Railway Modeller

In response to your post I have had a look at the photos of these. They are remarkably complex and the frame and axlebox arrangement is very unusual, which would be a challenge in most scales. Although the main frames are plate frames the full height of the loco, the axleboxes are mounted in a separate set of bar frames which may form part of the suspension. The locos are also tiny. What scale/gauge combination were you thinking of? The prototype was 1'10" gauge and because of the position of the wheels immediately inside the frames and the transmission arrangement with vertical rods you couldn't use a track gauge wider than prototype without affecting the whole shape of the loco. 7mm scale on 12mm track? In that scale it ought to be 12.83mm but 12mm is an established gauge and would allow slightly broader wheel tyres. Or you could have something a bit bigger: Guinness loco G3

Just a thought. Arguably, Phoenix is missing from that list. So are the surviving narrow gauge Guinness steam locos.

I found this quite useful summary of the survivors, for anyone trying to list the intervening types: https://trainstobeyond.com/irish-preservation/

In the Hunslet video there was a teaser about the Peckett... But there are 40 major railway exhibits at Cultra, lots to choose from, including some nice small and medium-sized tank engines.

As yet, I haven't found a photo of an 800 hauling a Park Royal, but I'm sure it happened. I'll say it again, the triangulated underframe under the Park Royals would form a perfect basis for some of the other CIE 1950s carriages, like the first one in the photo at Mallow in the post above. With tongue firmly in cheek, there's only one thing missing from this train now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409908/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511409843/ And with tongue even more firmly in cheek, are you sure you've made number 800 the right shape? I'm no expert on these locos, I'm just looking at photos: Thurles 1961, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53453950801/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468545416/ Inchicore 1963, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53505733957 Amiens St 1964, no snail: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251716485