Mol_PMB

Oh yes, some of them went through several stages of trimming, and not always at the same time as they were repainted!

Many thanks John! I enjoy the research aspect of the hobby. Sometimes, careful study of photos shows things that may not have been recorded officially. By bringing the information into one place and sharing it, often others chip in with more info and photos from different sources and that helps everyone interested. I'm hoping to build a few of Leslie's spoil wagon kits (as ballast wagons). I quite fancy making a little NIR works train to go behind an IRM Hunslet.

Dimensions for DH class include: Wheel Diameter: 3'6" Wheel Base: estimated 11'9" (scaled from image below) - has anyone got an accurate figure? Length Over Buffers: 28'4" Compared to some GB prototypes with an 0-6-0 jackshaft drive: Class 03: WD 3'7", WB 9'0", LOB 26'0" Class 04: WD 3'3", WB 9'0", LOB 26'0.25" Class 05: WD 3'4", WB 9'0", LOB 25'4" Class 07: WD 3'6", WB 8'7"", LOB 26'3.25" So the Class 03 chassis is a reasonable starting point, the main issue is that the wheelbase is too short. But I think you could get away with it on a model, because the steps and valances at the end of the DH class frame would partly conceal the empty space. Photo from another thread here, thanks to @jhb171achill: Photo from Professor Chaos on Flickr showing a broadside view of an 03:

Found elsewhere on the forum, here's a photo from @jhb171achill showing C338, one of the side discharge ballast hoppers. Note that this one retains its UT lettering:

I've just found this thread and I had also been puzzling over these 6-wheel freight wagons, so thanks for the info above. Here's another 6-wheeler, behind an NIR Hunslet at Lisburn, thanks to Jonathan Allen on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/39853513881 And I suspect this may also be a 6-wheeler, an interesting view from above: I'm certain I've seen another, very clear photo of one of these 6-wheel wagons in a yard in Belfast, but I can't find it again!

I've been making some more progress on the photo plank today. A slight frustration is the code 75 rail which was supposed to arrive yesterday still hasn't turned up. So I've had to focus on other things. Firstly I put the final layers of brown gunk on the 'ground' and topped it with a sprinkle of fine brown ballast which I find is a good foundation for subsequent scenic treatments. This will need a few days to set hard and then I'll shake or brush off any loose bits: Next I painted the panels of sleepers. A coat of sanding sealer followed by a sprayed coat of mid-brown. Once that was dry I used a palette of grey, black, brown and bauxite to brush-paint some more varied colours. This is still wet but will hopefully dry to something that looks plausible: My childhood memories of Ireland include a lot of Gorse and Fuschia. They flower at opposite ends of the year so I can't have both in bloom, and have decided to go for the Gorse. Using Eddie's excellent photos as inspiration, I'd like a bit more than the first image, but not as much as the last! To try and make some Gorse bushes, I'm experimenting as follows. 1. Take an offcut of sea foam. Also some fine florists' wire, and bend a loop into one end: 2. Dip the looped end of the wire in superglue, hook it over the first branch in the sea foam,and let the glue stick the wire to the main stalk. Repeat until you have enough bushes for a thicket: 3. Set up the static grass machine, and a small tub of PVA diluted to a cream. Attach the earth lead to the wire 'stalk' of a bush, and dunk the top of the bush in the glue. 4. Tap off excess glue, and then apply static grass, turning the bush so it is well covered. I used 6mm dark green static grass. 5. Repeat. Note the use of a tub to recover static grass for re-use, as 90% of it would otherwise go to waste. These are now left alone for the glue to set. What I can't decide is whether the next stage is the flowers (using fine yellow ground foam) or whether I should add a layer of dark green ground foam first, and then the flowers after that. If I was working in a larger scale I'd probably use the green foam first, but in 4mm scale I suspect it'll be best to go straight to the flowers. Of course I could have just bought some of these, but where's the fun in that? I think my method gives a better impression of the spiky shape of a gorse bush. https://www.wonderlandmodels.com/k-m-model-gorse-bushes-assorted-pack-of-12

Now, for those of us who have enthusiastically pre-ordered an IRM Hunslet, we'll need a train to hang behind it, so what better than a rake of spoil or ballast hoppers? @leslie10646 tells me he is planning a new run of his spoil wagon kits, which you can see here and in his photos linked below: https://provincialwagons.com/kits-available/ These look like a very good representation of the as-built wagons, and it would be easy to add a few extra ribs on the underside of the hopper to depict the common variants. I'd be tempted to replace the buffers with something like these: https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/wagons/abwc026a/ I think both variants of the ballast hopper conversions would be pretty easy conversions too, cutting away some parts and adding others from plastikard. The attraction of the ballast hoppers is that for a realistic train you only need 3 to 5 wagons rather than a dozen or more. Cheers, Mol

Now I'll look at the wagons which were not modified as ballast hoppers, but survived into the 1990s. As we saw in an earlier post, many of the spoil wagons were re-used by NIR on a second spoil contract in the mid-1970s, and these were renumbered with an S prefix; S32 and S7 are visible here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49525562432 This photo from 33Lima on Flickr is a much later view, from 1992. It shows spoil hopper S31, in the same livery and condition as they were used in the mid-1970. It appears to be full of rubbish and half-grown trees so clearly hasn't been used for some years. At some stage 'RETAIN' has been painted on the solebar, perhaps to save this one when the majority were culled: But it wasn't a unique survivor, because 33Lima also took this photo on the same occasion. S31 is on the right, but I can't make out the other two numbers: I don't know if these unmodified wagons were actually used for anything between 1975 and 1992, or whether they were just dumped in a siding.

I'll now look at the wagons converted to side-discharge ballast hoppers. Known numbers for these wagons are: C325 C328 C330 C335 C338 C340 C342 C344 These are all higher numbers than the central-discharge version discussed in my last post. It's likely that there were more, and I think these could have been a continuous number series over this range. The 'Courtaulds' wagons were also numbered in the C3xx series by NIR, but I think they had higher numbers. These side-discharge ballast hoppers had their original side door sealed up, and most of the bottom half cut away. Within this hole, a smaller door was fitted, with a control mechanism comprising a two-handled crank. Again, NIRailfan's photos on Flickr provide some nice clear views. This is C340 at the end of its life: Operation of the ballast door would not have satisfied today's health and safety requirements - you would have to walk alongside the moving train to wind the crank handle, and when the door opened it would shoot ballast at your legs! C340 has some extra slots cut into the sloping chute, perhaps to encourage more ballast to fall nearer the rails. I haven't seen these slots on other wagons of this type. Note that the chamfered hopper top has been entirely removed on this side, along with some of the old door operating mechanism. This photo from Jonathan Allen shows a rake of four hoppers of this type, all from the door side. They are C344, C328, C325, C342: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49497154272 And on the same occasion, a useful overhead view of C342: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49496930316 C338 and C330 appear in this rake: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49724280377 From the hopper side, there were no visible modifications for the side-discharge ballast role. Here's C335, one of the first few wagons built (with the extra ribs on the triangular corners of the hoppers). We know that M1 and M2 were like this, possibly a few more. So this proves that there isn't a direct link between the M series number and the C series number. This wagon has also recieved the modification with the extra closely-spaced ribs in the middle portion of the hopper underside: The hopper side of C338 can also be seen fairly clearly here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49724279882 And this shows the hopper side of C344, C328, C325, C342, not so clearly but it does confirm what their hopper undersides looked like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49502241483 We'll finish with a photo of C338 behind MV 106 in 1990, not long before these wagons were withdrawn in favour of the new French bogie hoppers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/51684028742

I was wondering if there has ever been a kit for an NIR DH class 0-6-0? Or a suitable chassis identified for a scratchbuild? So far, my searches on the forum and on Google have drawn a blank. I thought these were based on an industrial shunter type but I can't find any models of similar locos and even the Judith Edge range doesn't help (though I could have a much more obscure Harland & Wolff shunter from them!) Are there any drawings or key dimensions available? Surely someone on this forum has built a DH? How did you do it? Pic from Bancc2 on Flickr: Cheers, Mol

Let's now look at the central discharge ballast hopper conversions. As built, the spoil wagons could only discharge to one side, but some ballast needs to go in the 'five-foot' so a group of wagons had a central discharge chute added. Known numbers for these wagons are: C291 C293 C319 C321 It's likely that there were more, but not a continuous number series over this range, because C300-C313 were bogie flat wagons (former coach underframes). This is the clearest photo of the hopper side of C291, from NIRailfan on Flickr. Note the rectangular chute between the wheelsets. There is also a two-handled operating crank on the side of the chute (just above the fine chain that can be seen dangling down). This side and the end of C291 can also be seen here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/51656948659 Here's the other side, of C293 this time. The original side discharge door remains in place but secured closed. Note that both these wagons retain the chamfered top to the hopper (although it is a bit dented in places) The second and third wagons in this train are C321 and C319, the other two known wagons of this type. They're facing in opposite directions, and we have photos of both sides of the train thanks to Jonathan Allen. Note that both of these wagons have lost the chamfered top of the hopper, on the former door side: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49724280377 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49724279882 There are subtle differences in the hopper support ribs on all four of these wagons too. None are identical to each other! Tomorrow I'll write about the side discharge ballast conversions, and those that survived in original 'spoil' condition. And then I'll give @leslie10646 some free advertising Cheers, Mol

Before I get started on the ballast hopper conversions, I'll highlight a couple of variations among the spoil hoppers. Here's a couple of Ernie's photos showing the sloping underside of the hopper of a 'standard' type. Note the regular grid of ribs on the sloping surface, but it doesn't extend onto the triangular corner pieces: The early hoppers were different - the ribs went onto the triangular corners. In the book 'Steam's Last Challenge' (Cassells) there is a very clear photo on page 5 of wagon M1, newly delivered, with these ribs on the corners. This photo shows a normal one behind the loco, but the hopper on the edge of the photo has the ribs extending on to the triangular corners. The wagon appears to be M2: The leading wagon here also has the corner ribs, though we can't read the number. I don't know how many of these there were - maybe just the first few wagons were built like this? In this photo, the second wagon also has the extra ribs on the triangular corners. But the first wagon shows another common modification - in the middle part of the grid of ribs, extra closely-spaced ribs have been added. In the book 'Steam's Last Challenge' (Cassells) there is a very clear photo on page 57, showing a grubby wagon with this middle section of the hopper underside very clean and freshly painted, with the extra closely-spaced ribs. I'm pretty sure this was a modification or repair, as a consequence of boulders being dropped into the wagons and damaging this part of the hopper. So, when we come to look at these wagons in their later ballast-carrying guise, we can keep an eye out for these changes. In this photo by Jonathan Allen dated 1989, there are several different permutations: Nearest is C291, which at first glance is 'standard' but perhaps some of the ribs have been replaced with a heaver section channel. Next is C335 (we'll see 'Tony Chrisy' again later) which has the early-type arrangement of ribs extending onto the triangular corners, as well as the modification of the closely-spaced ribs in the middle section. Third is C328, which has the normal type corners, with the modification of the closely-spaced ribs in the middle section.

Thanks Alan! It's a long time ago now, I'll try to remember: The CVR wagons had etched brass underframes, I think they were by Branchlines? The bodies were scratchbuilt from plasticard and microstrip. The CVR railcar was also an etched brass kit, which I never quite finished. The CVR loco was indeed scratchbuilt from brass, lots of careful work with a piercing saw! Again, unfinished because interests changed when I went off to university!

I think we all know about the UTA/NIR spoil contract, trains of side discharge hoppers operated by the NCC WT 2-6-4Ts from 1966 to 1970. 70 wagons were built by Cravens, numbered M1 to M70, and during the course of the spoil contract they were actually owned by the Northern Ireland Ministry of Development, rather than by the UTA or NIR. The wagons took a beating in the late 1960s, with many of them suffering derailments and others being damaged when large boulders were dropped into them. While the spoil contract continued, they were patched up and this led to a host of detail differences between individual wagons. When the spoil trains finished in May 1970, they were put up for sale, but there were few organisations interested apart from NIR. NIR probably got the cheap, but they weren't really much use for anything other than their intended purpose. 70 was far too many for NIR's needs and so they selected the wagons in better condition for future use, and scrapped the bad ones. Apparently, M62 made it to Inchicore, perhaps as a sales pitch? NIR used these wagons in two ways: 1. A second (smaller) spoil contract, from October 1974 until August 1975. Spoil was carried from Magheramorne to Cloghan Point, and the trains were diesel-hauled. Initially the DH 0-6-0s were tried but they lacked power and reliability, so this became a duty for the spare Hunslet Bo-Bo. As far as I can tell, the wagons were unmodified from their previous use except that they were lettered NIR and renumbered. Jonathan Allen has a nice selection of photos of these trains on Flickr, including these examples: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26136565608 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49487458087 This photo is interesting because it clearly shows that the wagons have been renumbered in a series starting with S; the two nearest are S32 and S7. They are also stencilled NIR on the upper part of the hopper: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49525562432 In a photo, it's usually easy to identify a spoil train as distinct from a ballast train, because a spoil train has all the hoppers the same way round, whereas with a ballast train they're usually mixed. 2. Ballast wagons for works trains and track ballasting. NIR rebuilt at least a dozen spoil wagons to become ballast hoppers. Whilst in principle both a spoil and a ballast hopper are designed to discharge stone, the functionality needed is very different. A spoil hopper needs to quickly dump the whole load well clear of the track. A ballast hopper needs to drop stone at a controlled rate, either in the middle of the track, or on the sleeper ends at either side. Ideally you need to be able to shut the doors on a ballast hopper while it is still partly filled. So it was necessary to carry out some major modifications. These wagons were renumbered into NIR's civil engineers' number scheme with a C prefix. So far, the numbers I have identified include: C291, C293, C319, C321, C325, C328, C330, C335, C338, C340, C342, C344. It wasn't a continuous number series of spoil hoppers, because C300-C313 were bogie flat wagons (former coach underframes). Most commonly seen behind a DH 0-6-0 or a Hunslet, the MVs took over these duties later on. These photos from Jonathan Allen on Flickr show how they were used: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49724280377 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/49496930316 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/51561249361 In 1984, the preserved WT No.4 even found itself hauling ballast trains formed of the old spoil wagons, whilst running-in after overhaul! Some of these hoppers were still in use on ballast trains in the early 1990s (alongside the Walrus bogie hoppers) but were scrapped not long after the new French bogie ballast hoppers were commissioned. This photo by NIRailfan on Flickr shows some of the variety in the fleet at the end of their life: They're an iconic Irish wagon, which can legitimately be hauled by a WT 2-6-4T, SLNCR 0-6-4T, DH 0-6-0, Hunslet Bo-Bo, MV Bo-Bo, and various NIR railcars. I wouldn't be at all surprised if various GM classes ended up hauling them at times too. In subsequent posts in this thread I'll try to collate some photos showing the different former spoil wagons used as part of the NIR engineers' fleet, and hopefully make sense of the modifications. Anyone else is very welcome to add photos or info on the topic, of course! Mol

I found some photos of a couple of my earlier Irish modelling projects, a couple of decades ago. I haven't found anything of the first EM-gauge models (which were later thrown away at some stage) although the offcut of sundeala board I've just used in my photo plank is a remnant of that layout! However, here are some 20-year old photos of some of my later attempts. I think I still have these models (and others of their ilk) boxed up somewhere. Clogher Valley Railway in 4mm scale: 1980s CIE in 6mm:ft on O gauge track: The genny van did get finished, but I can't find a pic of the completed version. Ironically, these are all prototypes that IRM haven't tackled yet in 4mm scale... Cheers, Mol

I'll see if I can find any more photos of them, I thought I had some interior shots somewhere but I can't find them. Note that 6208 was a 'spare' for the Cu Na Mara set, and often ended up running with a normal Mk3 rake, as seen at Ennis for example. It had BT10-type bogies, like a Mk3, different from the rest which were on a variant of the T4. Here are the drawings for the catering car:

A few of my photos of International stock. Two shots in comparison to a Mk3, and one with the door open showing the door edge profile. It was nice to get some baby GM haulage in one of these!

In the new book 'Ruston and Hornsby Locomotives' (Tonks) two of the CSET 88DS locos are pictured, and the caption says 'These are to the Irish 5'3" gauge but otherwise identical to the standard gauge 88DS'. However, I don't think that's quite correct. On a standard gauge 88DS, the cab is the full width of the footplating. However, on the CSET locos the footplate is about 6" wider than the cab. So I suspect the underframe of the broad gauge ones is wider, and the bodywork is standard. Here are my photos of one at Fenit many years ago. the view from above shows the width difference quite clearly. But from most angles it's not obvious.

To improve the taste, I have dipped the layout in chocolate! This is a variant of the old papier mache approach. I still use strips of newspaper, but the 'chocolate' is a mix of Artex plaster powder, brown poster paint, PVA glue and water. I've put about 6 layers of newspaper on so far and will see how it looks tomorrow. Annoyingly, I've forgotten to do the electrical wiring first! I was going to put in some track feeds and a short lead connected to the chicken wire to use for earthing when applying the static grass. Never mind, I have a work-around for both. Several parcels have arrived today, making me wonder if I've spent too much recently! From the West I have received a box of new Irish books that I ordered from the RPSI, and a set of 3 IRM corrugated open wagons. From the East I have some track components and another baby GM, this time 149 of the new batch, also supertrain livery. That's definitely enough locos for now, the three of them together would almost fill my layout end to end! But at least I have one of each class that are clearest in my childhood memories. Though I do recall once seeing a little black shunter pottering around Limerick, which at that time can only have been G611. And then there were the trips north of the border...

Yes, they definitely had a different profile, more angular at the solebar, and the end taper was more than just the door.

Very impressive! Three of those have just come through my door, definitely not enough for a beet train but satisfactory amongst some vans in a mixed freight.

Here's the BREL drawing for the International brake coach, in two halves owing to scanner limitations! Mol

Excellent. I've only just bought the two mentioned above, from the RPSI to give them some support. I've had 'Rails through the West' for a while. What have we got to look forward to next?

Many thanks, that's very useful to see, though of course the crucial dimension is missing as you say. Your 12' estimate would make it 7" higher than an H van, which is quite plausible when comparing to photos. I've been trying to learn a bit more about the alternative door design with the external ribs. I looked through two recent books 'Rails through Tipperary' and 'Rails through Wexford' both of which contain plenty of photos of freight trains in the 1970s. There were a total of 23 Palvans pictured (I tried to avoid double-counting when the same train was featured more than once). Of those 23, 20 had the normal door, and 3 had the external rib door. Extrapolating that ratio to the complete batch of 500, there would have been about 65 with the external rib door. (Yes, I know there's a statistical margin of error to consider, but the true proportion is still likely to be between 10% and 20%). So far, the numbers I've got on my list are: Corrugated ends, normal door: 26073, 26123, 26135, ..., 26326, 26338 Corrugated ends, external rib door: 26188 (fits in the gap above) Corrugated over X ends, normal door: 26363, 26373 X over X ends, normal door: 26430, 26458, 26459 Incidentally, I learnt from those books that for a period, the beet trains often ran with a few vans as well (Palvans, H vans or ex-GNR vans) carrying beet pulp. Mol

Hmm, so we have bogies and mechanism for a Class 20 under the NIR Hunslets, and now we have bogies for a Class 40 under the Beihack ploughs. Let the frothing rumours commence...