Mol_PMB

Lovely job. You'll need to be careful with the clearance between those two lines - I can foresee a sideswipe when shunting one line if there's any stock in the other.

I agree with the above but there are plenty of areas where items are made a little over-scale thickness to ensure that they are robust, so I wouldn't worry too much about a small percentage increase. Something to think about is the typical viewing angles, especially for static scenery items. You probably wouldn't be looking down on the gate, it's more likely to be in the distance and looking across at it. So an increase in thickness in one direction is more noticeable than in the other, and I think you have done the right thing in this case - the gates at the top of your image look great. On the tubular gate the thickness can also be made less obvious with a bit of weathering or toning down the colour. For the sunburst gate, I agree that etching is the way to go because the wrought iron is so thin. It's something that would fit nicely in Weshty's scenic range.

With no splashers or outside cylinders, ‘Shamrock’ might be an easier conversion to 21mm than most kettles. It survived until 1957 latterly at Rocksavage but I don’t think it worked much (at all?) in the last few years. The Manchester Ship Canal (one of my other modelling interests) also had some very similar Hunslets in the early years. However, there were a host of detail differences among these locos which would make them challenging to produce accurately in RTR.

Not an oval boiler! But does the cab get wider, and if it does then the cab front sheet would need replacing so it still meets the sides of the firebox which are the same width as the standard gauge version. So it’s a little more complex as you indicate.

Oval boiler and all

The issue is of course that the largest market segment is 16.5mm gauge and therefore the engine and tender frames would need to be be 6" narrower, not wider! The ground has been covered by Bachmann already, admittedly some years ago. If IRM / AS chose to do an up-to-date model I expect they would cover both the GB and Irish variants but given the respective market sizes would there be a realistic prospect of the Irish one actually being wider?

Yes, that was my point!

Question: have IRM / AS ever produced a model of a loco class that no longer exists? I’m thinking in relation to which steam prototypes might be tackled in future. My impression, maybe wrong, is that scanning locos and close inspection of small details is part of their process, along with studying drawings and photos. I suppose there are some variants (e.g. some Buckjumpers, and the Class 30s) that don’t survive and must have been based on other sources.

My previous model railway was/is based on the Manchester Ship Canal and I looked at the Manchester Liners containers in great detail. In the late 1960s they leased containers from CFC, and I wrote a little document to collate my information on CFC. Why is this relevant to your question? Because CFC also leased containers to Ronagency, as well as some of the Irish Sea operators like Greenore Ferry Services. So the attached pdf may be of interest, although it's a bit tangential. Ronagency served Castletown and this shows one of their ships there, with containers in the background: https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/media/m-v-tower-duchess.134401/ CFC_Commercial Finance.pdf

A very fine selection of CIE container images have recently been uploaded to the IRRS Archive on Flickr - many thanks Ciaran! These are all from around 1975: CIE 40' with side doors CIEU 060138: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834639 CIE 20' bitumen tank CIEU 060442, a very nice set of detail views: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662801 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834634 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662786 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027845 CIE 20' half-height open top CIEU 060018: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402779127 CIE 20' double side door container CIEU 060750: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893218 CIE 20' side door container CIEU 060510 (?): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834674 CIE 20' tiltainer CIEU 060234: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893223 CIE barley hopper container CIE 480: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893248 CIE 20' insulated container CIE IRL 2071: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402779217 Small non-standard tank container, informal number only: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893098 CIE 10' bulk glucose containers, one of each type (the cylindrical tank and the cuboidal version CIEU 060144) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402779167 This shows the opposite side and end of CIEU 060144, and beyond is the end of a cylindrical one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834694 There are also a selection of CIE swapbodies, some of which may come under the 'Lancashire Flat' designation: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834579 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027740 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893238 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662761 It's also worth looking in the background of these photos for other container and wagon types. Excellent inspiration for some intermodal modelling!

Some newly uploaded photos from the IRRS Archive on Flickr, relevant to this thread and dating from the mid-1970s. 25201 series 20' flats, empty, loaded with a swapbody and loaded with a car: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662746 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893238 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893143 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027815 25436 series 20' flats loaded with CIE swapbody, a barley hopper container, and an insulated container: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834579 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893248 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402779217 27101 series 20' flats loaded with CIE swapbodies: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027740 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662761 27301 series 22' flats empty, and loaded with a wide variety of CIE containers: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893148 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027745 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403662801 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893218 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403834674 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54403893223 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402779167

Some newly uploaded photos from the IRRS Archive on Flickr, relevant to this thread; one of these may be the image in Doyle & Hirsch: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54402778987 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54404027795

101 spent part of its life as an oil burner so it could deserve a white spot.

As well as the picture albums, and noting your memories of the Larne line, then if your main interest is NIR I would suggest: Jonathan Allen’s book ‘35 years of NIR’ is excellent for a wordy history with illustrations. Edwin McMillan’s ‘Dark Days and Brighter Days’ is a very readable, more personal history of NIR. ‘Diesel Dawn’ is an excellent more technical book about the development of diesel railcars of Ireland, particularly those north of the border. They should all be available secondhand.

Some 33 new photos on the archive this weekend - many thanks Ciaran! These are mostly black and white images of CIE wagons and containers, some nice detail shots and I’ll add links into my relevant threads when I’m home again in a couple of days. Some images will be familiar from the Doyle&Hirsch stock books or CIE diagrams, but now visible at a better size. https://flic.kr/p/2qTtSBQ https://flic.kr/p/2qTosTa etc

If you search on ebay for Irish Railway Models there are 4 of the grey/blue NIR Mk2 coach packs for sale at present - which may be suitable for the Hunslets but some are slightly later types that ran with the 111s. Maroon/blue NIR Mk2s have been promised!

There is a trolleybus turntable somewhere in Europe, where the route terminates but there’s no space for a turning loop.

Indeed! This is a picture I keep coming back to when looking at greens. It’s on the cusp between genuinely different paint colours, and the same paint but the difference between newly outshopped versus a few years of weathering. Maybe I should stick with silver! On the subject of the faded tan on the B101s it’s worth remembering that there were 3 different liveries on the withdrawn locos - one still had the early 1960s black and deep tan (without the white stripe at the cantrail), and had been withdrawn almost a decade earlier than the rest. Several had the black and shallow tan of the late 1960s. Some of the black and tan ones were looking almost greenish with weathering by the time they were cut up. Some of the other B101s received supertrain livery after being stopped! Only a few carried it in service.

Park Royals appeared in two distinct shades of green, There's a super colour photo dated 1961 in the book 'Keith Pirt Colour Portfolio' page 4 showing Park Royals in both shades in the same rake. The lighter green ones have black ends, and are cleaner so probably newly repainted. I'm pretty sure the AEC railcars appeared in the same two shades. And these two coaches are surely showing the contrast between the same two shades: The Park Royals in the 1959 image with C231 are the darker shade, and have green ends. I could be persuaded that C231 is the same colour as the Park Royals, just a bit cleaner (except for the black bits!) I don't think C231 is the lighter green seen on the railcars above, and on these photos of C class without lines The colour that to me always looks darker than all of the above, is the shade used on carriages in the 1940s with the two thick bands of eau-de-nil. Also applied to shunters 1000-1004. But perhaps it wasn't really darker. There aren't many colour photos of the 1940s livery and many of them may show vehicles after years in traffic that have darkened due to dirt, revarnishing etc. Perhaps also the bigger expanse of eau-de-nil makes it look darker? Is the official view that the green in this 1940s livery is the same as the darker shade applied to the AECs and Park Royals? Maybe after enough pints of stout all the shades of green will look the same?

The two photos I have of E410 in silver are at Fenit in 1958 and Albert Quay in 1959, and I think it is in similar condition to E402 in the picture posted above, so that's what I'm going with. There's a lot of subtle staining down the sides, with heavier dirt on the horizontal surfaces. Should be an interesting challenge! Fenit: Cork: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54323027377

Colour photos of the E class in silver livery aren't numerous, but I've found half a dozen in various states of grime that I will be using to guide my weathering. I'm going to aim for something like this: This one has a similar degree of grime: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255284989/ But there were some much worse examples, like the one on the edge of this photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255052946/ This view shows how the dirt accumulated on the bonnet top:

There are a few more variants not in your list, particularly variants of black and black'n'tan. I have looked into the green ones in more detail and I believe there were some in light green with line, possibly 211, 218, 220, maybe others. Whereas 231 and 234 (which were painted green from new, and at the same time as A46) were mid green with line. Good colour pictures with other green vehicles to compare to are needed to make a good judgement. I'm calling C231 in this image 'mid green': I know it's heresy but I think there were 3 shades of CIE green... But in my livery matrix I'm presently just showing whether green locos have the line or not. This is the current status of my C class livery matrix: There are some locos that would be particularly useful representatives of some liveries. Focusing on Crossley-engined examples for now: C231 or C234 for the mid green with line C232 carried unlined light green for much longer than most. A good example for silver livery would be one that never got painted green, and was still carrying silver in 1962/3, such as C202, C210, C214, C224 C209, C221 and C229 carried the black and deep tan (i.e. 'high band' in your terminology) livery for a long period C223 and C226 had the yellow panels for longer than most There are 5 variants of the black livery; when doing the A class IRM missed the most common one (with roundel on the side, but without yellow panel) so hopefully we'll have at least one C in that scheme which looked very smart when clean. C212, C215 or C220 might be good examples as they carried it for a long time.

All good stuff - many thanks! I think what this is telling me that for main-line diesel models at least, any number will do and I don't need to restrict myself to ones known to have worked in a particular area. Having said that, would we on the forum have any influence over which liveries and numbers are produced when the IRM C class breaks cover?

The wagon appears identical to the T&FHC one, though the only photo of that in T&FHC livery appears to be a maker’s photo before delivery. I have no idea if there was more than one. The T&FHC had fallen out with the W&LR to the extent that they bought their own loco, so perhaps no surprise they bought one or more wagons too.