
Mol_PMB
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Everything posted by Mol_PMB
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I've just snapped up a set of 3 IRM bubbles on ebay for £99.50 which seems like a reasonable deal (at least after a few pints). Of course, having said in my previous post that Pack J was the 'Friday afternoon job' that's completely wrong, that was the set that came up for sale. So over Christmas I now have a nice challenge of regauging and modifying them with a variety of details and appropriate liveries for some of the different batches described above.
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CIE locomotive livery variations 1960-1990
Mol_PMB replied to jhb171achill's question in Questions & Answers
I've had a go at the C class livery matrix, which has been quite a lot of work but rather interesting: General notes: Where there is a text entry in a cell that indicates a dated photo showing that livery on that loco. Cells coloured but empty are a reasonable assumption based on the same livery appearing in the years before and after. The blue boxes at the bottom represent the period when the locos were stopped. Empty white cells indicate that I haven't found any photos or other evidence to confirm the livery in that year. I expect there are some gaps that could be filled by photos I haven't found yet. Any more info would be very welcome, especially to correct errors or fill gaps. There are lots of photos which aren't dated, or only to the nearest decade. They aren't shown here, unless they depict a livery not shown in any dated photos, in which case they're at the bottom of the table. A loco could be repainted at any time of year but in my table I only have room for one livery in each year so please bear that in mind when reviewing the data. In the years that locos were re-engined (cells with a pink outline) they were also repainted, and I have put the new livery in that year. Where photos show the loco in Inchicore having work carried out in the remains of its previous livery, I have put that old livery in the previous year's cell. It is possible that some photos are wrongly dated; where there are direct clashes I have tried to prioritise the data from the photographer with the more reliable or precise date. Some further notes on the liveries themselves: Silver: almost all the C class entered service in silver, but apparently 231 and 234 were painted dark green with pale line when they entered service. Numbers and snail were green. Green: Many locos were painted from silver into green, but some may have skipped the green stage (206?). Some green locos had a pale waist line and some did not. There is a school of thought that the -G- lined green locos were all a darker shade of green than the unlined G green locos. I don't think it is as simple as that, because there are several photos showing lined and unlined green locos side-by-side where the shade appears identical. This photo shows 3 green locos side by side, the middle one has a line and the others don't. The shade of green is indistinguishable: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53449386806 Nevertheless, I think different shades of green may have been used on some locos. Lighting conditions and film/slide response to colour can be variable and many photos are in black and white. I have not attempted to distinguish light and dark green, simply whether there is a line or not. If people have more info then please let me know. Black and Tan: Mostly black, with a tan band on the lower bodyside and a white cantrail line at the top of the bodyside. There are 3 distinct variants: BDT: The tan band is deep (in dimension, not colour). In the early 1960s, some C201 class locos were painted in the original BDT scheme which had no numbers, lettering or roundel on the sides. These included 206, 207, 209, 210, 218, 221, 229 and 233, but many locos seem to have skipped this livery and gone directly from green to black. On the other hand, some BDT locos skipped the black livery (221, and probably 229). BDT2: In the late 1960s, a few locos were painted in a revised scheme which retained the deep band of tan, but also had a roundel on the sides, and small numbers at solebar level behind the cab doors. These were all B201s and included the first to receive a GM engine (206) and the two Maybach-engined locos (233 and 234) although the latter two had been outshopped in black from their first re-engining. BST: The later black and tan livery had a much shallower tan band, with a roundel on the sides, and small numbers at solebar level behind the cab doors. This was applied to almost all the class when they were re-engined in 1971/1972 (exceptions included 206, 233 and 234 which had BDT2 already). The BST livery did not last very long on the B201 class. Black: Plain black all over except white 'eyebrows' above the cab windows. Applied to most C201s and B233/234. I have decided to split this into 2 distinct variants: #B^: This has a large number near the centre of the bodyside, with styling similar to that used on the silver and green liveries. There is no roundel. I think this less common scheme came before the other black scheme. Locos carrying this scheme included 214, 219, 222, 225. B^: This has a roundel on the sides, and small numbers at solebar level behind the cab doors. This is more common and carried by the majority of the class prior to re-engining. Black with Yellow Panel: Some black locos had a large yellow panel painted on the cab front, sometimes as a later addition. 203 was the first done in 1968 and also had a yellow bufferbeam, but the others had a red bufferbeam (including 205, 209, 211, 223, 226, 232, 233). These are shown as BYP. One of the locos with the rarer #B^ scheme received yellow panels and this loco 219 is shown as #BYP. Supertrain: Mostly orange with a black band, and only applied to B201s, sometimes not long after they had been outshopped with new GM engines in BST. Both the Maybachs B233/234 carried this livery for 6 or 7 years before they were re-engined with GM engines. A distinctive feature of the pair during that time was the lack of the white GM headlights on the cab front. NIR: some locos were sold to NIR after withdrawal by CIE, and were painted NIR blue. There were at least 12 liveries in total, perhaps more if we were to distinguish the shades of green. None of the locos came close to carrying all of them, but most carried at least 5 schemes and many had 6. I think 233 carried 7 different liveries in its life. Now then, I wonder which versions IRM might produce? (I am working on something similar for the A class but with nearly twice as many locos and 4 additional liveries it's quite a task!) -
A lot will depend on the time period (and livery) being modelled. You'll need a thorough read of the railcar site as linked above; these pages in particular may be useful. Class 108 DMU Diagrams Class 108 DMU Operations I think you will find that the 4-car sets had different driving cars to most of the 2-car sets. Those built with 4 cars were formed DMC-TBS-TS-DMC. Depending on which variants Bachmann have produced, you may therefore need to modify the driving cars too if you need to accurately recreate a 4-car set as built. You may need to buy several sets to get enough bits to cut and shut. This should tell you what Bachmann have produced, it looks like they've done mostly 2-car sets and a few 3-car sets: Bachmann Branchline OO Class 108 (2006) - Details For example this set contains one DMC and one TS that would be suitable for a 4-car set if renumbered, but the other driving car is not the correct sort. Bachmann Branchline 32-911 Class 108 3 car DMU BR green yellow warning Whereas neither of the cars in this set would be suitable for a 4-car set: Bachmann Branchline 32-906 Class 108 2 Car DMU in BR green with half In later years the formations would have been changed and very often mixed up with other classes, so it would be entirely plausible to have (say) a Class 101 trailer formed into a Class 108 set.
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A little more info from my research. Firstly here is a clipping from the Octobr 1977 IRRS journal describing the use of these wagons from Tara Mines for the first few months the mine was working, June to August 1977: Secondly, a look at the excellent book 'Rails through Tipperary' by Jonathan Beaumont (of this parish) and Barry Carse found two colour images of the Mogul zinc trains in August 1973. The wagons appear to be in brown livery, and neither the laden or empty trains have sheets on. However, the tubular sheet support framework is still present. Another photo in the same book shows a rake of empty wagons at Silvermines in July 1974. These are definitely in brown livery and the tubular sheet support framework has been removed from all the visible wagons. So those photos give us a fairly tight timeline when the framework was removed, and a reasonable idea of when they were repainted brown.
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We Surprise Nobody With A Nifty Class 50 in 00/4mm
Mol_PMB replied to Warbonnet's topic in British Outline Modelling
If you get a chance while you're sorting the class 50s, please would you apply the same fix to the IRM bulk grain wagon page? Many thanks! -
One of the benefits of this hobby is there are so many different aspects to it and you can pick a project to work on that suits the mood, weather etc. But I am guilty of a lot of half-finished models!
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Nice work on the tender behind. A pity that plan A didn’t work, maybe it needed a bit more weight?
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Peculiar CIE Rolling Stock
Mol_PMB replied to DiveController's topic in Photos & Videos of the Prototype
I had my eye on this too. I think the number is 0731. The wording appears to read ‘TO WORK BETWEEN WATERBANK AND STATION ONLY’ but it’s not entirely clear on the scan. Did the cattle bank at Mullingar have a name? From the same seller there’s also a nice photo of a pair of the MGWR side-discharge coal wagons of continental design: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335714103886?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=jL0OYQ-sSgG&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWnBnL0RQpq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY -
Curse those lacrimatory vegetables!
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I have looked at a lot of B101 photos in compiling the livery table, and I don’t recall tablet catchers even in silver livery photos. I will re-check once I’m home. i have found some more photos and will update the B101 and E tables next week. Mol
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Sadly I’m of the wrong generation to remember those times, but I have fond memories of some RPSI trips including a very valiant effort by 186 (a substitute itself after 4 had failed). 186 seemed to enjoy it as she arrived in Connolly with a huge glowing red smile! We’ll not talk about the speeds achieved by those little goods-engine wheels. (A good thrashing over the hills had filled the smokebox with half-burnt char which then heated the lower half of the smokebox door to a red heat, hence the smile) I also enjoyed a Herculean effort by 85 with 7 on, unassisted out of Cork on a wet slippy day and in simple mode for the first 3 miles, barely reaching 12mph. The tunnel roof got a good blasting and 85 was more black than blue on arrival at Mallow. In the old days, trains would have 2 or 3 locos for that climb.
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Yes please! I was hoping that IRM would announce the 22’ container flats, but in the meantime some of yours and John’s earlier 20’ variants would be very welcome.
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I’m reminded of an Enterprise trip in early DD days when the timetable was optimistic and the substitute was a 6-car 80. I was ‘lucky’ to get a seat with my back against the engine compartment as it roared, thumped and howled in a valiant but doomed attempt to keep time.
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I have visions of a vessel the size of the Ever Given with every container full of Accurascale and IRM products!
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I’ll add another vote for the importance of plenty of bracing, and sealing the tops. If parts are waving around then they aren’t doing anything! A bit more time invested now to ensure a robust foundation will save a lot of heartache later.
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Any OO models available of DFDS Container Pocket Wagons?
Mol_PMB replied to raymurph's topic in Irish Models
They have a rather limited timeline and geography so perhaps not a priority? But who knows - IRM have surprised Irish modellers in the past! -
Any OO models available of DFDS Container Pocket Wagons?
Mol_PMB replied to raymurph's topic in Irish Models
The Dapol ones are similar in style but the well is shorter than the Irish ones - only 40’ rather than 45’. -
I’m very tempted! On holiday at present but I’ll be in touch when I get home and have finished the brake van!
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Super progress despite the small setback. And excellent workmanship. Looking forward to seeing this take shape.
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Yes, I thought it looked a good price. It’s too late a period for my modelling though I have plenty of memories of the year or two it spent down south - including on the beet campaign.
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Might this be of any interest? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/235809461941?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=5t9tlMaHSfS&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWnBnL0RQpq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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NiR 112: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/316027066234?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=gzvx98tlryw&sssrc=4429486&ssuid=PWnBnL0RQpq&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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Anyone fancy doing a repaint? (photo posted by @seagoebox in a different thread a couple of years back)
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CIE locomotive livery variations 1960-1990
Mol_PMB replied to jhb171achill's question in Questions & Answers
Regarding the D class, I'll write in words what I've found so far. There are a lot of mysteries! The class entered service in 1948 carrying a dark green livery with an 'eau de nil' cantrail stripe and flying snail, and numbered 1000-1004. There are photos of 1000, 1001 and 1003 in this condition in the 1948-1950 period. This is a fascinating colour photo dated 1964, though only IRRS members will be able to see it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570791059 Only the top part of the D class loco's number is visible, and it could be 1000, 1002 or 1003, still carrying its original number and livery. But also in shot are three E401 locos freshly repainted in black and tan, so the quoted date of 1964 is very plausible and it couldn't be earlier than 1962. C216 is also visible, freshly repainted in plain black. It seemed remarkable to me that one of the locos would still be carrying its old number and livery in 1964. We may be able to work out which of the 3 locos it was by a process of elimination. 1000 became D301 and ended its days in black livery with a white 'fringe' as seen here. It was officially stopped in 1960. There's a 'mid-1960s' photo of it here in the same black livery with fringe, in the company of some more E401 locos freshly repainted in black and tan, and with its rods and buffers missing. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511473459 Did it get a repaint after it was stopped, surely not after it began to lose parts? Now, let's have a look at 1001. Here's a photo of Ernie's which shows it at work at Heuston in April 1961: Again, it still has its original number as late as 1961. But there's no trace of a cantrail stripe or snail, so I wonder if this has been repainted in light green but still with its old number? There's another much closer photo of 1001 in this condition in the IRRS archive, but only dated to '1960s': https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511321098 Assuming 1001 became D 302, the books tell us that it was stopped in 1960. Apart from the minor issue of Ernie's photo of it still at work in 1961, there are two more problems. Here are three photos of D302 freshly painted in black and tan livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526390417/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53526421872/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527323881/ None is precisely dated but they can't be earlier than 1962. But the story doesn't end there. D302 was repainted again, into plain black with white vee on the cab, as seen here in Jonathan Allen's photo dated 1970: Is it really plausible that the loco was repainted TWICE in two different liveries, after it was stopped from traffic? Now, 1002 later D303. Ernie's wonderful photo shows it with new number and pristine light green livery, dated 1956. That is surprisingly early for light green livery. Note also the black roof. Even if the date isn't spot-on, nevertheless it proves that the loco did carry light green with its D number, which I don't think any of the others did. Later, D303 carried black with a white 'fringe' similar to D301's last scheme. There are several photos of it at Inchicore in the 1965-1970 period in this condition. D303 wasn't officially stopped until 1970 so it would still have been in use at this time. Staying with Ernie, here are D303 and D304 together in the mid 1960s. As you can see, D304 had acquired black and tan livery at some stage in the 1962-1964 period. The tan band on D304 was a few inches deeper than that on D302. D304 was the last of the class in service, until 1972. As these photos dated 1968 and 1975 show, it was repainted in plain black with white V on the cab end: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570882505/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570643303/ Finally, 1004 later D305 seems very camera-shy, and the only photos I have found of it are 1970s well after it was stopped in 1966. By then it was plain black with white V on the cab end, as seen in this photo by Jonathan Allen: So, 5 locos, and a multitude of different liveries. 2 or 3 variants of green, 2 variants of black, 2 variants of black and tan. All started in dark green, and all ended up in black, but went via different colours in between. I wonder which was the loco featured in the first photo I linked? A curved top to the last digit so it must have been 1000, 1002 or 1003 still in its old livery in 1964. Well it wasn't 1002 because that was painted light green and renumbered D303 in the 1950s. Possibly 1000, but it seems that was black with a fringe by 1964, so it's unlikely. It could have been 1003 - maybe in the works to be repainted in black and tan as D304? There are some mysteries here, but also some fascinating variations. Can anyone add more pieces to the jigsaw? -
CIE locomotive livery variations 1960-1990
Mol_PMB replied to jhb171achill's question in Questions & Answers
And now the equivalent for the G class. Plese refer to the notes below as well. Where there is a text entry in a cell that indicates a dated photo showing that livery on that loco. Cells coloured but empty are a reasonable assumption based on the same livery appearing in the years before and after. The blue boxes at the bottom represent the period when the locos were stopped. I expect there are some gaps that could be filled by photos I haven't found yet. There are lots of photos which aren't dated, or only to the nearest decade. They aren't shown here, unless they depict a livery not shown in any dated photos, in which case they're in the bottom row. It is possible that some photos are wrongly dated. Some findings, which probably aren't a surprise. Firstly the G601s: All locos were painted silver when new. G603 was painted green around 1961; the frames were green too. I have not found photos of the other two in green. At some stage, all three were painted in plain black with a white vee on the top of the cab end and a white line around the top of the cab (B -v-). They carried this livery when withdrawn but I have only found photos of G601 in this livery in service, and those are undated. I have not seen any photos of the G601s in BST livery. Then the G611s: These were all painted green when new, and a photo exists showing all seven together at Inchicore in green, with the cabside numbers painted on the first three. However, they were all quickly repainted in black and shallow tan line around the top of the cab (BST). This may have been before they entered traffic. From the late 1960s when they needed repainting, the standard livery became plain black with a white vee on the top of the cab end and a white line around the top of the cab (B -v-). Only 4 locos received this scheme and the others remained in BST They mostly worked on branch lines, and when those closed their remaining duties were shunting at the sugar beet factories. Initially still owned by CIE the surviving locos were sold to CSE in 1977. In the mid-1980s G611 was working for CIE again, based in Limerick wagon works. I have shown this loco as still in traffic for this period, which may not be correct, but it's all a bit academic for this table as its livery didn't change for over 20 years. It should be noted that some locos have carried liveries in preservation that they did not carry in CIE service. I have been trying to prepare a similar table for the D class. It's complicated and sparse - I could do with more in-service pictures but the vast majority show them after withdrawal. There were at least 5 different liveries carried.