Jump to content

Mol_PMB

Members
  • Posts

    1,909
  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won

    102

Everything posted by Mol_PMB

  1. Finally from 1968, details of the shipping lines that carried container traffic to and from Ireland. Some of these will be more familiar than others. This view of the ship 'Rolf' in 1969 shows what many of these Irish Sea intermodal vessels were like at the time. Small coasters adapted to carry a few containers, and in this case although there are a few ISO boxes it's mostly older container types and Lancashire Flats. In this photo the vessel is being operated by B+I and is carrying containers or flats belonging to CIE, Irish Ferryways, Containerway, Roadferry and others. (scanned from the book 'Looking back at Containerships' by Andrew Wiltshire, and the photo credited to Danny Lynch)
  2. Ah well they can be bought on the internet in a range of colours!
  3. I've long been interested in intermodal traffic and containers, particularly the early years of the ISO container in the 1960s and early 1970s. I have a fair bit of literature on the subject including several early editions of 'Jane's Freight Containers.' I know there are a few others on the forum that are interested in this sort of thing like @leslie10646 and @DJ Dangerous , so I thought I'd do a few scans which are relevant to the Irish scene, and post them in this thread. Hopefully they will provoke some discussion. I'll start with some scans from the 1968-69 edition which was the first one published. At this early stage there were many small operations with one or two ships service a wide variety of Irish Sea routes, including some that seem quite surprising from today's viewpoint. Even in the 1960s, some of these were starting to merge or collaborate. Firstly, some adverts: Next, the 'Eire' section, as it was called back then: And now some information on the container ports in Northern Ireland: Still from 1968, some data on selected GB mainland ports which served Ireland, plus the Freightliner network of the time:
  4. I've written about the green ones here. Any more info or photos would be very welcome!
  5. So, what became of the green H vans with hinged doors? Well I think the answer is that they got repainted, and disappeared into the regular H van fleet. With the green paint gone, it was only the buffers and couplings to distinguish them from the normal fitted H vans, and these don't stand out in general photos unless you're looking very closely. Fitted vans were preferred for the Derry Goods so it's no surprise to find a shot at Waterside in 1972 where the nearest fitted H van appears to have the extended buffers of a former green one, but is now painted grey: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509190566 In 1977 Jonathan Allen photographed 18778 in the Youghal goods, its number is within the modified batch but it does not have a screw coupling or vacuum bag, and the buffers appear to be the standard type; it probably lost its special features at overhaul: https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/40288038462 https://www.flickr.com/photos/152343870@N07/26356242948 Another example which did keep its extended buffers is 18848, which was still lurking at Inchicore in brown livery in 1986 and 1988 as seen in these two photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509013426 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511545930 That's all I've got so far. Any more info or photos would be welcome. When the IRM H vans turn up, I have plans to bash some of them into these types...
  6. Let's go back to another snippet of information in the Pender&Richards notes. Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time. The other really good quality photo of a green H van (albeit a black and white image) is one of those fitted with sliding doors. This is in the IRRS Flickr archive so it is only viewable by members. Here’s the Flickr link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317 Intriguingly this wagon is 18828, the consecutive number to the hinged door version in the RCTS photo. The bodysides are completely different but everything else looks the same as on 18829, including the livery (green sides, remainder black) and the extended buffers. Additionally, we can see clearly that screw couplings are fitted. Although variable in length, screw couplings are fundamentally longer than 3-link couplings and this could be a reason for extending the buffers on these wagons. In the IRRS photo, 18828 is marshalled between two other similar wagons in the same livery, so there are actually three of them in that photo although we can only see a small part of the other two. We can see enough to be sure that they were also fitted with sliding doors. Now, these sliding door H palvans are visually very distinctive compared to all other types. For weeks I've been scouring photos showing goods yards full of vans looking for more images of them. I have come up with just one! There were only 15 in total, but I'd have expected to find more than one photo. Other rare types such as GSR grain vans crop up rather more frequently. Anyway, here's a link to the photo in the IRRS Flickr archive. It's dated 1972 and by this time the van has been repainted grey, and is marshalled among a train of the later type of palvan: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292 In the next post I'll go back to some of the hinged door versions as seen in later life.
  7. A good spot. Look closely at the image of the two in the mail train at Westland Row and I think they are the same: Additionally, see the link in the next post I'm just writing...
  8. Now, it’s time to throw a spanner in the works! Ernie has some marvellous photos on Flickr showing veteran 0-6-0T number 90 shunting vans at Cork Albert Quay, dated 12 September 1960: One of the vans shown clearly in these images is 18836, within the batch built in 1958, apparently retro-fitted with vacuum brakes and painted green in 1961/62, and only a few numbers higher than green 18829 that we’ve seen already. Yet this van is already vacuum-brake-fitted in 1960 (we can see the vac cylinder, vac pipe as well as the brake handwheel in the first photo). It is in rather grimy grey livery that would be consistent with a couple of years in service since being built in 1958. According to Pender&Richards this van ought to have been unfitted at this date. Is the photo date plausible? Well loco 90 was withdrawn at Cork shed in October 1959, but soon reinstated and remained in use on pilot, shunting and occasional railtour duties until it was withdrawn finally in 1961. So, the photo date of 12 September 1960 is entirely plausible. Given the grimy grey condition of van 18836 I would suggest that it is shown prior to any conversion and repainting in green in 1961. Yet it is vacuum brake fitted already. A possibility is that this batch of 100 H vans 18762-18861 were originally built with vacuum brakes (as per the previous 220 H vans), and that the 1961/2 conversion referred to in Pender&Richards was to fit the screw couplings and extended buffers. These would have made them more suitable for running in passenger and mail trains, and perhaps justified a different paint scheme to distinguish them from the other fitted H vans without extended buffers or screw couplings.
  9. With the ship carrying the IRM fitted H vans almost visible from the crow’s nest, I thought it would be timely to write about the green ones. IRM haven’t offered a green one (yet), perhaps wisely, because they were non-standard in some respects. Nevertheless, they were eye-catching vehicles during their short life in that livery, and I recall that I made an attempt at modelling one back in the 1980s during my first attempt at Irish modelling. By gathering together some information on them, perhaps this will help others to do a better job than I did back then! The only really clear, complete colour view of a green H van that I am aware of is in the RCTS archive, and can be seen on this link. It is number 18829: https://archive.rcts.org.uk/shopviewer.php?pg=44353&code=CH06463C There are some interesting things we can see in this photo (follow the link and you can zoom in to see the details): The sides are green, but the rest of the van is black. The buffers have been extended by inserting some packing pieces behind them. The packing is approximately 6” thick and much longer bolts have been fitted. Otherwise, from what we can see in this view, it’s a fairly standard ‘fitted’ H van. In 1967, Pender&Richards wrote with reference to the H vans in general: Nos. 18542-18761 were built with vacuum brakes and can run on passenger trains. The group 18762-18861, which were built in 1958, were fitted with vacuum brakes in 1961/62. These wagons were painted green at the same time, though some have since been repainted in the standard grey livery. Fifteen of this group were fitted with sliding doors (for pallet traffic) at the same time. The green one linked above in the RCTS photo is number 18829 (towards the end of the batch apparently retro-fitted and painted green), shown in 1962. Of course there is no guarantee that there were modified and repainted in numerical order. It wasn't a new idea to have 4-wheel wagons capable of running in passenger trains, and finished in passenger livery. For example, many horseboxes were vacuum-brake fitted and painted green. However, the timing of these modified and repainted H vans, being outshopped in 1961/62 was unfortunate because the black and tan livery was just about to replace the green livery for passenger trains. Also, many branch lines were closed to passengers (or closed entirely) in the 1960s, reducing the need for passenger-train rated vans. It is not clear whether all 100 vans were outshopped in green; if they were then many of them must have repainted in grey fairly quickly. Let’s look at some more pictures of green H vans, appearing in the background of other photos. 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol 2 p. 13 shows one at Inchicore in the background of a photo of 'Sambo', but only the top half is visible. I think there must have been a gallery of photographers taking almost the same photo at this time in 1961, as very similar but non-identical views appear in other places. For example, this photo from Ernie shows almost the same scene as the photo in the book, but a moment earlier or later. The van hidden behind Sambo is a green one, whereas the ones on the left and the right are grey: The best variant of this shot I've found in a book is shown below in heavily-cropped form, which clearly shows the extended buffers, screw coupling and the livery of green with black ends and underframe: Again, there was clearly an enthusiast visit to North Wall in 1961 where several people photographed 'Woolwich' 376 at the head of a freight train, with the first wagon being a green H van. These are all in the IRRS Flickr archive; sadly none of the images have a legible number on the van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570708143 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569609807 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510258067 Another IRRS trip to Limerick also produced multiple photos of a green van in the background; these are cropped scans from a couple of my books: One of Ernie's more recent posts is this image dated 1961, with some besuited individuals standing in exactly the wrong place for our purposes: Also from Ernie, this photo is interesting, as it shows two fitted H vans in a mail train, and the visible end looks a lot darker than the sides suggesting that these are green with black ends. They are certainly doing the duty that the green vans were modified for. The nearer one appears to be 18774 but I can't make out the second one. The date is 1961: A few more image links to the IRRS Flickr archive, which you will only be able to see if you are a member: Dated 1961 and from the IRRS Flickr archive, the van on the far left appears to be a green one, though I confess the colours on this image aren't the best: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53468861704 Here's another image from the IRRS Flickr archive showing a green H van in 1962, marshalled among other unfitted H vans in a normal freight train: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570662593 This is the latest photo of a green H van I've found, dated 1967. It's a rather distant view unfortunately, and in the IRRS Flickr archive: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569603052 So, it seems that in 1961 the green vans weren't incredibly rare, it's possible that there were tens of them. However, almost all the images of them that I've found are from 1961, very few in later years, so most may have been quickly repainted. It's possible that the later conversions in 1962 were never painted green; that would seem unlikely for any outshopped after the black and tan passenger livery was introduced. I have several more posts on the subject coming up, which may muddy the waters further. If you can point me towards more photos of green H vans, please do! Mol
  10. None of the former C class had train air brakes, so no.
  11. It may also be worth looking at the branch termini which did survive to the present day and what they were like in the early 1970s. Ballina is the obvious example with varied traffic. Cobh was more passenger-focused but still interesting. To be honest, for modellers looking from a GB perspective even some of Ireland’s main line termini were/are more within the scope of a BLT layout. Sligo, Westport, Tralee, Galway, Kilkenny and Killarney only had one or two platforms and a trackplan that could be compressed into a plausible size for a 4mm scale layout. The trains were longer than might be expected at a BLT, but they often didn’t fit the stations! I think that the passenger side of Galway would make a very nice layout, one main platform and the bay for the TPO, turntable and stabling point behind and the stub of the Clifden line.
  12. In doing the A class matrix I found a couple of locos that were out of traffic for several years after accidents, but were later repaired, which obviously influenced the liveries they carried. Potentially this can be misleading when using the livery matrix to select a loco to model - you might be looking for one that worked in green for a long time, but you wouldn’t want the mangled hulk round the back of Inchicore that stayed green for years. Reading that more than half of the C class were out of traffic in the mid 1960s, I wondered whether this could be an issue for many more locos. Did some skip liveries simply because they were broken and dumped long-term? So, getting to the point finally, is there a source of info that would tell me when locos were out of traffic, mid-career, for a year or more? Cheers, Mol
  13. I think a lot depends on the date being considered within the stated 1960-75 period (probably more like 1963-75 for the Black'n'tan to be widespread). In the mid 1960s the A and C class locos (which dominated numerically) still had their unreliable Crossley engines and were mostly to be seen on freight and secondary routes, with the main line expresses entrusted to the baby GMs. The Crossley situation was so bad that in June 1963, only 12 of the 34 C class were in traffic! With the closure of branch lines the underpowered and unreliable C class became pretty irrelevant and many were relegated to engineers' trains and lifting train duties on the branch lines they had previously served. In our imaginary scenario where a branch remained open, a C class would be a valid option pre-1970, but might have been used as a last resort if nothing better was available. For shunting and pilot duties it seems the E class were considered more useful than the C class. But by the end of 1970 the majority of the A class had been re-engined and the resulting Ar class was proving itself to be reliable and more powerful than the baby GMs. At this time there was a reshuffle of power with the Ar class taking on more passenger work and releasing the baby GMs for other duties. So if the branch line model were to be set in the 1970-1975 era then I think a 141 would be the loco of choice. There was also a need to replace the AEC railcars which were at the end of their useful life as powered units, mostly on Dublin suburban services. With electrification planned (even in the era under consideration) but forever being postponed, re-engining the C class for suburban duties was an adequate stopgap and occurred in 1971/72. I don't think suburban duties needed all 34 of them though.
  14. The second half of this film shows some excellent actvity on the Youghal branch in the 1970s.
  15. Fenit was a favourite of mine that I part-built a model of 30-odd years ago. It had a variety of freight traffic, retained an interesting track layout with turntable, and quite a mix of motive power turned up there. Also there were enough enthusiasts' specials and locally-advertised excursions (both steam and diesel-hauled) to provide some passenger interest, and it wouldn't require too much imagination to consider that the regular passenger service had continued. In many ways, the same could be said of Youghal, which had a great deal of excursion traffic as well as the branch freights.
  16. I'm happy that I was able to purchase a couple of those that you had in stock. I do tend to agree with the general trend you mention though - the quality of RTR is now too good for kits to flourish even in quite niche markets. Even a decade ago, it was fairly straightforward to build a kit into a more accurate and better-detailed model than the RTR equivalent. Not any more. I'm looking forward to building your kits as I enjoy the construction process, making something my own. Also I'm not expecting the particular prototypes I've bought to emerge in RTR in the near future, but who knows what IRM will conjure up next? Mol
  17. This film shows a variety of these old dropside wagons in use whilst lifting the line through Dungarvan in 1970. Both 4-wheelers (some in red livery) and at least one of the 6-wheelers (freshly painted in grey with roundel) feature in the footage, as well as a nice selection of stealth black diesels and other equipment. Beats watching the same old Christmas movies...
  18. 109 was a former Maybach and hence non-standard in some ways. But having seen how they have represented the subtle differences between the Hunslets, maybe the Maybachs will be included in the collection of C class?
  19. OK, here's the big one - the A class livery matrix. I'm not sure how legible this will be as a png so I have also attached it as a pdf. The basic format is the same as for the C class one (and others) posted above, and the livery key is as follows: For the A class, I've had more than just photos to work from because there was an IRRS article about the A class liveries, which @jhb171achill quoted from much earlier in this thread. Liveries based on that information (mostly 1960s period) are shown in italic letters. In many cases they are corroborated by photos which leads me to think that the article is reliable. That data has helped to fill a lot of gaps. Most of the data in matrix makes sense, but as an example of the challenges of creating something like this, look at A43's liveries in the mid-1960s. I'm pretty certain that in reality it was green through the early 1960s and then repainted black which it carried in the late 1960s. The problem is that there's a photo of it freshly-painted in black dated May 1965, and another photo of it in tatty green dated 17 March 1966 (i.e. 10 months later). I'm pretty sure that one of those dates is wrong, but which? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508785154/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/50671073171/ In general the liveries followed the expected patterns that I've already described for the C Class. However, there are Some interesting cases to note: Some locos were repainted in silver in the early 1960s. Definitely A16, but A28, A39, A40 and A44 may also be candidates. A44 and A54 both spent several years out of traffic following major accidents (shown in blue). Some locos missed out on green. Definitely A6, A16, A39, A40. Quite likely some of the others that carried BDT in the early 1960s. A27 was tarted up and painted green for a Papal visit in 1961, and then very shortly afterwards was repainted in BDT. It looks odd in the matrix but it's correct. Some locos missed BDT and went straight from green to black. Definitely A30, quite likely A4, A9, A13, A18, A19, A32, A42, A43, A59 and probably some others. A16 went straight from silver to black and skipped both green and BDT. Some locos skipped black, and carried BDT until they were re-engined. A1, A22, A37 are examples. A21, A30, A49 and A55 carried the less common variant of black livery with large numbers on the sides and no roundel. Of these, the first three never got a yellow panel, while A55 did get a yellow panel as part of a full repaint with roundel and small numbers on the sides. The first eight locos re-engined were outshopped in BDT2: A35R, A39R, A41R, A42R, A48R, A51R, A58R, A60R. The others came out in BST For a short while in the mid-1960s, A28 carried a non-standard scheme which may have been works undercoat. The ST supertrain livery was by far the longest-lived on the class, and was applied to all of them. Most of those which survived into the 1990s got IR 'tippexed' but 047 seems to have been withdrawn in 1993 still in STIR (supertrain with IR logos). A_Class.pdf
  20. C class liveries summarised and illustrated here: https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#findComment-252106 https://irishrailwaymodeller.com/topic/1334-cie-locomotive-livery-variations-1960-1990/page/4/#findComment-251972
  21. Excellent!
  22. Hopefully one day IRM will produce the sad face loco too?
  23. Beautiful model of Blackwater too!
  24. Mol_PMB

    Shapeways

    Shapeways is being resurrected in the Netherlands. However, Shapeways itself is a marketplace and it’s up to the owners of the CAD whether they make their files available on the ‘new’ shapeways, or somewhere else, or not at all. So there may still be some options but probably best to contact the CAD owners.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use