Mol_PMB

In the first photo, there's an interesting vehicle visible on the left margin. It appears to be a combined goods van and brake van, what would be called a 'Road Van' in GB though I don't know if that term was used in Ireland. I know the CB&SCR had some vans of this concept, but I don't think I've seen this one before. It's quite a long wagon and the long open verandah is distinctive - like a GSWR plough van (or a GWR 'toad'), but neither of those types had doors in the sides of the van portion.

Many thanks Ernie. It looks like these books have a lot of interesting snippets and photos. I've decided to buy the Vol 3 on ebay (at a good discount) and will keep an eye out for Vol 2 at a better price. Cheers, Mol

For what it's worth, I've put some money in the pot and (re-)joined the ITG. Would encourage others to do the same.

Wow, that's impressive evidence of quite how robust the GMs are! Well done for all the hard work and I look forward to my visit to Downpatrick in August.

I was very tempted but am already booked on a steam excursion on the Manchester Ship Canal. I hope all goes well for you, and I look forward to travelling behind Uranus131 in future.

OK, so some later photos of the double-skinned vans by which time the snail was being superseded by the roundel. Some IRRS links: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508632798 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527501678 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511614184 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511123921 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509178074 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445964687 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53448459957 Some of Ernie's views in grey livery with roundel: And one in the scrap line from 67C 42909 on Flickr: And finally, some that received brown livery with roundel: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511737035 https://www.flickr.com/photos/holycorner/7080217621 I think these double-skinned vans were some of the last survivors of the IRCH wooden-framed vans; perhaps the additional strength and weatherproofing provided by the second skin was a factor. I hope this has been a useful review, and perhaps will inspire some models of this wagon design that lasted 50 years and travelled over the whole island. Whilst the standard design was common to GNR, GSR and MGWR, 3D printing technology could make the variants fairly straightforward too. I would welcome additions to this thread, if you have any more photos, drawings, diagrams or information on number series. Perhaps I've missed a variant - please help to fill the gaps! Up my sleeve I have some research on the IRCH steel-framed vans, which may follow in due course...

Until I can get some more info on the GNR vans, the finalvariant of the IRCH wood-framed vans to consider is the GSR 'double skinned' or 'flush sided' type. In the 1930s, the GSR developed the IRCH wood-framed van design into a double-skinned type, with an additional layer of planking on the outside of the wooden uprights. The design had similarities with their older butter vans but had a conventional roof. Double-skinned sides would still have provided improved protection from the weather, including thermal insulation and better waterproofing. In later years these vans survived surprisingly long in cement traffic where a dry interior was crucial, and were also seen in flour traffic. Some survived into the mid-1970s almost to the end of unfitted freight trains, and Brian Flannigan's photo (that we've seen already upthread) nicely illustrates 16549 in brown roundel livery in 1971, alongside its GNR sister: This photo of 16753 in the scrap line shows some of the outer cladding missing, revealing that underneath the van is almost identical to the standard IRCH type: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511737475 Some older photos show these vans at the front of passenger trains, implying that some were vacuum fitted, or at least through-piped. However, none of the close-up photos found to date show evidence of vacuum fitted vans of this type. This is a mystery yet to be resolved. Numbers that I have identified from photos are as follows: 16365 16432, 16445, 16460, 16481 16526, 16549, 16551, 16576, 16586 16634, 16639, 16694 16753, 16760 16809 All the known numbers are in the series 16365 to 16809, following the 'blocks of numbers' approach started by the GSWR and continued by GSR and CIE. Prior to this block in the number series were the GSR wood-framed IRCH vans without the double skin, for which the highest known number is 16290. We looked at those further back in the thread. Within the number range for the double-skinned vans, there is a known block of numbers 16400-16411 which were the GSR bulk grain vans introduced in the mid 1930s. After the block of double-skinned vans, the next known number very soon afterwards is 16812, first of the aluminium alloy bodied LMA vans. Both the bulk grain vans and the LMA vans were on steel underframes and had few similarities with the wood framed vans being considered here. Based on the number series, there may have been up to 500 double skinned vans built through the 1930s. The earliest photo of one yet found is dated 1939 and shows 16460 in GSR livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508914253 Moving forward to the 1950s, there are some useful photos in the NLI, IRRS and Ernie collections. https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000303493 shows a nice roof view, with a distinctive longitudinal rib that wouldn't be visible from ground level: Another early 1950s image from the IRRS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508949033 This photo from Ernie dated 1953 only shows part of a van, but in excellent detail: Turning round we can see a bit more of it, though the number isn't quite visible: This IRRS photo shows a pair of these vans at Ennis in 1955: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498783586 Back to the NLI for a 1959 view at Thurles. Again this shows the longitudinal rib on the roof of the double-skinned van (but not on any of the other types): https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304005 Photos become much more numerous in the early 1960s. I'll give a load of IRRS links first and then look at the ones that will embed in this thread: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253242773 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253435290 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53498932083 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253234479 (notably some of these don't have the roof rib) https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53445962692 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569640052 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255304174 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419684699 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419738558 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419892155 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54251543484 This view from Ernie shows 16694 on the Guinness branch in 1960: And this beautiful view at Shannonvale Mill with 16576 in 1961: Dromod and Ballinasloe in 1961, again with double-skinned vans lurking in the edges of the shot: Fenit, early 1960s, in a photo by John Powell, and a double-skinned van interrupts a block train of H vans: There are also some good NLI images of these from the early 1960s: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304916 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304980 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305420 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305816 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000307038 I'll leave it there for this post, and cover the late 1960s and 1970s images in a follow-up post.

Lovely! They bring the footplate to life. The finish on the clothing is very good, touches of gloss on the greasetops and boots are spot-on despite the dirty working environment. The overalls look well cared for but not pristine, as one would expect.

Many thanks both, much appreciated.

Work in progress on the prototype palvan, shown alongside the green H van for comparison: The basic body shape is done now, based on parts from the Parkside BR palvan kit which has become a bit wider and shorter to match the Bulleid triangulaed underframe. The ends from the kit are almost right for the prototype CIE palvan, except the curve of the roof which I have altered to match the H van. The production CIE palvans had quite different ends (and several variants of them too). Next steps are to add the reinforcing strips on the door, and the door handles and door stops. The chassis needs a little more work but is nearly there. I'm only aware of two photos of these prototype palvans; there were apparently 15 of them. A clear photo of one van in a rake of three brand new in green livery: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510273317 A single van in the background of an image dated 1972, by which time it was painted grey but the photo isn't clear enough to show whether it had a snail or a roundel, or what number it was: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510435292 I'm undecided on which colour the model will be - I quite fancy the grey variant so I can run it with some 'normal' Palvans when IRM make them, but I have better info on the lettering of the green one and it would pair nicely with my green H van. Any more info on the prototypes would be very welcome!

Wonderful - many thanks for the advice. The third one is also of most interest to me in terms of the time period covered. The ebay seller sent me quite a reasonable discount offer on the third one so I might get that, and see if I can pick up the others more cheaply. Thanks for the link to a 'free' volume 1. The only one I found on Abe books at present is the £70 volume 2 which is a bit steep for me!

One of my ebay searches recently turned up an Irish railway book I hadn't seen before: Note that this is volume 3, and despite the cover price of £6.90 the seller wants £50 for a tatty secondhand copy. A search elsewhere has found volume 2 is also available from a different seller, cover price of £4.50 and a price of £70! I can't find volume 1 anywhere. Are these books good? Does the quality of the content justify the high prices being asked? Or is it just a case of 'it's scarce - so it must be valuable'? I already have the Ernie Shepherd book and the Chris Larkin book on the CBSCR.

Some oddments to finish off the GNR section, mostly thanks to Ernie's albums. Another image showing a GNR vac-fitted van, 4216: In UTA days, a pair of fitted vans being shunted: And again, another fitted van to IRCH dimensions on the left. Beyond it is a GNR ventilated van, to the older, shorter size. I do not know whether any ventilated vans were built to the larger IRCH size. Some of the older smaller type vans were branded for Guinness traffic, like this one. Again, I don't know whether any of the IRCH vans were so branded: The GNR had some unfitted bulk grain vans, bascially to the IRCH designs and dimensions but adapted for the bulk cargo. Here's a high-angle view of 4105 showing the roof hatches for loading. I assume these had a hopper bottom like the CIE bulk grain vans, but I haven't yet found any other photos. Note also the advertising panel on the side, and the resulting unusual position of the GN lettering (to which has been added a UT stencil): https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511443526 Edit, another more distant photo probably of the same bulk grain van on the same occasion: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511610703/ 'Irish Railways: 40 Years of Change' (Boocock) page 37 has a lovely photo dated September 1958 showing a fitted van at the head of a train in pristine GN red-brown livery with full GN lettering and CIE stencil. But the van doors are unusual - they have a drop section at the bottom like a cattle van. It has the larger axleboxes typical of a van to the IRCH drawings. As yet I haven't found any more images of vans like these.

Let's have a look at the vac-fitted variants. These seem to appear in more photos that the unfitted ones, which might suggest there were more of them. But being vac-fitted they were more likely to be marshalled at the front of a train, and they had a distinctive livery too. This photo of Ernie's shows a nice rake of GNR vans, the leading one in red-brown livery is a fitted van to the IRCH dimensions, while the fourth van in clean grey livery appears to be one of the sheet-sided 12t vans. The others appear to be older 9t vans though it's difficult to be certain from this angle: Also from Ernie, a pair which appear to being attached/detached from a passenger train: And a closer partial view of another being shunted: This photo, again from Ernie, very nicely shows the detail of the brakes: These vans had screw couplings which are longer than 3-link couplings, so they need either longer buffers or to have the buffers packed out on blocks. Most of these vans seem to have had packing blocks fitted, as can be seen in these end photos, again thanks to Ernie and the IRRS: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509081588 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53500778071 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508025162 A pack of three: The fitted vans continued to be used by both CIE and UTA after the GNR was split up. Here's 4102 in UTA service, thanks to Roger Joanes: And from Ernie, one at Castleisland a long way from home: A few were outshopped in GNR red-brown 'vac fitted' livery with flying snails - perhaps these had been under overhaul at Dundalk in 1958 and gained this unusual transitional livery. Here are 3 views of 4166N in that scheme: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257197990 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54257010559 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54255882582 'Irish Railways in Colour' volume 1 (Ferris) page 31 has a photo of 2057N in the same livery.

I'd better make a start on the next and most complex chapter of this thread - the GNR vans. It's complex because they had more variants than the other lines, and their numbering scheme was based on filling gaps in the number series from withdrawn vehicles, so there aren't neat blocks of numbers that can be associated with particular batches of vans. The IRCH standard design appears to have been based on previous GNR vehicles, being a lengthened and uprated version of the 9-ton van. The GNR produced both 10-ton and 12-ton variants to the IRCH dimensions. The HMRS has a copy of GNR diagram no.13 for a 10-ton van, dated 1921, which conforms to the IRCH dimensions: https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-5256-10-ton-standard-covered-wagon-19ft-11ins-o-a-9ft-6ins-w-b.html Only two wagon numbers (794, 5095) are given, in a note referring to a special livery applied to those two. There would have been many more standard ones. The HMRS also has a copy of a 'B.Heaven' modellers drawing which appears to be of the same type of van: https://hmrs.org.uk/hmrs-5580-10-ton-standard-9ft-6ins-w-b-16ft-11-o-b.html This gives a few more numbers, presumably based on observations. It includes the following numbers for unfitted 10t vans: 547, 588, 828, 863, 922, 1941, 1888, 5779; and these for vac-fitted vans: 840, 1663, 2760, 3660, 4722, 5453. I also have a scan of GNR diagram 14 (which appears to have been previously numbered 14B) which I can't reproduce here. It is also consistent with the IRCH drawings, except that it shows 3-hole disc wheels rather than spoked, and a slightly different style of W-iron. Diagram 14 is rated at 12t and dated 1938, with details of several batches of vans built from 1938 to 1941 totalling at least 200 vehicles. Running numbers are not given. The diagram is subtitled 'for cement traffic'. The IRRS has scans of the GNR wagon diagram books advertised for sale on their website, but my attempts to purchase a copy have so far failed - my emails going unanswered. I'd imagine that they would provide more clarity on the different variants and quantities of each. I am led to believe that there is also a list somewhere showing which vans went to CIE and which to UTA, which may help with vehicle numbers. In the meantime I'll just post some photos and links, and hopefully the story will become clearer in due course. This broadside shot nicely shows the contrast between two IRCH-design vans sandwiching an older, shorter, 9t van: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511140831 Another rake, counting from the loco vehicles 2, 3, 4 and 6 are IRCH design: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53509081423 No. 76, partial detail view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511353608 No. 1970: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53508917715 [Note meanwhile the containers loaded sideways on the flat wagon!] A nice detail shot from Ernie. The van behind the loco is a later IRCH type with 3-hole disc wheels. The nearer van is an older 9t van still with grease axleboxes: 2016 in UTA ownership in the NLI archive: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304583 A few unidentifiable examples: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53499197330 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53507977007 Whilst the drawings I've seen show planked sides and ends, some of these vans later had sheet material on the sides and ends, apparently covering the planks. It's possible that some of those built in the 1940s were like this from new as several examples also have 3-hole disc wheels as fitted to the later vans (though I appreciate that is not definitive proof by any means!). Here are some examples: No. 240, 3-hole disc wheels: No. 444 lettered 'RETURN TO DROGHEDA', 3-hole disc wheels: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253248283 end view: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511607369 No. 1241, two views from Roger Joanes: From Ernie, this photo shows both GNR and CIE (ex-GSR) vans of this type with sheeted sides: We can read No. 134 but there's probably another digit. Note 'RETURN TO DROGHEDA'. Again from Ernie: In the NLI archive: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304650 So far, I've dealt with the vans that didn't have vacuum brakes. I'll do the vac-braked ones in another post.

I recently bought an old colour slide of Limerick, dated 1983, mainly because it included a nice rake of cement bubbles viewed from above. Here's a closeup of the relevant part of the slide, slightly brightened to enhance the detail: 10 bubbles are visible, of which 4 are in ivory livery and remaining six are in filthy orange. In later years these wagons tended to be marshalled in pairs with the filler pipe ends (and ladders) adjacent. That is not the case here. Nearest, and only partially visible, is 25104 built in 1965. It retains its original Morton brake arrangement - the brake lever goes to the vee hanger, rather than reaching beyond it. At the end with the vacuum cylinders, the lack of a raised treadplate is obvious compared to the adjacent wagon which is from one of the later batches (1967 / 1970 / 1972). The third wagon, in orange, is one of the original batch from 1964. It retains the wheel handbrake arrangement but moved above the solebar (the original position was below). Reinforcing ribs have been added to the solebars above the W irons, quite different from the flat plates with protruding eyes on the later batches. The fourth wagon is one of the later batches, but seems to have a non-standard access hatch in the top. The remainder of the wagons all seem to be pretty standard, later batches, and the image isn't clear enough to show the finer details. The patterns of weathering - cement from above and rail dirt from below - are quite interesting, as is the way that some of the accumulated cement has come off in lumps to expose patches of paint underneath.

I'm delighted to see that you're learning about repainting models, and improving your skills as you go. Starting with a couple of cheap coaches is a great idea as a learning exercise, and they're looking good. In this case think you're trying to work too fast. The green hasn't properly dried before you have turned the coach side over to do the brown. Another thing to think about is the preparation of the parts before painting. If you want the paint to stick well, they need to be clean, dry and free of grease, so it's a good idea to clean them first and then let them dry properly. I agree with this. You'll get a better finish, and it will dry more quickly, with a series of thin coats. Where you're using green to cover red, it would be better to start with a light grey primer, which will neutralise the red colour and help you achieve a good even green colour without the paint having to be very thick. I suspect there's little you can do to remove the paint from the worktop. If the surface is MDF then trying to remove it either by chemicals (e.g. thinners) or mechanically (scraping/sanding) is likely to make things worse. A couple more thoughts. Think about the order you do the painting. On the coach sides it might have been better to do the brown interior first, then finish with the green exterior which is the most visible. And you might consider something to hold the parts while painting, even if it's just a couple of matchsticks to keep them clear of the newspaper. Finally, make sure you're working in a well-ventilated area with those spray paints. Keep up the good work!

Finescale wheelset conversion packs. What a great idea... Whoops, how did this get here?

Have a read of this thread...

Haha! I could probably do with a bit more patience! Having torn apart the bubble and made a start on regauging it, I've realised that I need a different type of bearing. So I've put that to ones side and done some more work on the H vans. I now have 6 bodies with all the detailing, painting and lettering complete, and ready for weathering. I also have 4 chassis complete and painted, also ready for weathering. 3 more chassis are progressing well through the re-gauging process. And I've been measuring up a Parkside palvan body as the basis of an 'H' palvan body to go on the spare chassis. Note, this isn't going to be a 'normal' palvan, but one of the prototypes converted from fitted H vans.

From 3 feet away as you said, they would be fine. The NCC's flush-sided stock was mostly non-corridor suburban vehicles, like this one: Have a look through Ernie's album (and the book, if you buy it) and you can compare the stock yourself to see whether it meets your own definition of having potential.

Have a look in Ernie's NCC album for some inspiration. There are some late 1930s photos here, and of course some of the carriages from that period remained in use well into UTA days as shown in the 1950s photos. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157626750300070 Some examples from pre-UTA days:

OK, so the UTA began in 1948, so you're thinking of the late 1930s, 4-4-0s and 2-6-0s hauling most passenger trains but no Jeeps yet. Definitely the Bachmann LMS panelled corridor stock would be your best bet. Potentially also Hornby LMS suburban coaches for local services.

John, Apologies for going off at a tangent, but in this context can you still offer the tin van etches? I appreciate that they were a dozen years ago and you have a lot on your plate at present, so feel free to say no!

Do you have a particular era in mind? Stock built by/for the NCC in the LMS period was generally in similar style to that built for the LMS itself, but there were always subtle differences in dimensions (length, width, arrangement of compartments etc) and of course gauge! After a lot of NCC coaches were destroyed in a bombing raid during the second war, to replace them some former LMS coaches (including pre-grouping types) were transferred to the NCC and regauged. So in principle there are quite a lot of RTR stock which 'looks right' from a distance, but very little that's exactly right. The Bachmann (ex Mainline) panelled LMS corridor coaches would be a fair starting point. You might also consider a cheap secondhand copy of this book, which will give you much more detail! https://www.amazon.co.uk/LMS-Ireland-Mark-Kennedy/dp/1857800974