Mol_PMB

Over on RMweb: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topic/155786-more-model-ideas/?do=findComment&comment=5903584

Knuckle coupler, no side buffers. Proportions all wrong. AI nonsense.

While we're on annual reports, the 1962 report includes a fairly well-known photo showing the first train in the new black and tan livery: On close inspection, 3 of the 'carriages' behind A6 are actually powered intermediate railcars, newly converted from the Wedgeheads. The other bogie coach is state saloon 351. It seems they scraped together anything in the new livery to pose for the photographer - it's certainly an unusual train formation! The first few powered intermediate conversions were definitely outshopped in green (illustrations linked upthread) but it looks like the last few came out in black and tan.

A couple of extracts from the CIE annual reports which mention these six railcars. This is from the 1957 report: And this is from the 1958 report:

At least 184 is still with us. 1907 was smashed to smithereens in 1974.

Back to 1907, there are several IRRS photos of this with RPSI 184 in 1970, including these: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570456911 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53569599852 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53570654018 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309423 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511309418 What these show is that 1907 had been converted to a driving trailer in the same way as 1906 (cab, headlights, commonwealth bogies etc), but by 1970 it had lost its headlights and therefore was no longer functional as a driving trailer. Other internal control equipment may have been stripped out too, but we can't see that in the photos. That would tally with the entry in the coaching stock register for 1969 which shows only 1906 (not 1907) wired for use with the diesel railcars.

The normal full-size windows have four sections at the top - the top corners are fixed, while the middle two are inset slightly and can slide behind the corner ones. That’s pretty standard. The narrower windows you’re asking about just have two sections at the top. The right-hand one is fixed, and the left-hand one is slightly inset and can slide behind the right-hand one. The narrower windows (but not as narrow as a toilet window) are unusual though - used here to suit the forward-facing rows of first class seats. Normal AEC railcars had the same basic arrangement but a different window style.

Excellent - nice to see some more pics. I've been trawling through the IRRS archive again and haven't yet found any more good photos of the wedgeheads, though there are a few in the distance at the far end of a train. I've found plenty more of them in later life as powered intermediates. Although the photo references a few posts upthread show some in green as PIs, I'm beginning to think that only the first 2 or 3 came out in green and the others were painted in black and tan after conversion. I'll probably add a couple more posts here once I've finished my photo trawl. With Heljan GWR railcars at almost half price at Rails, I did have a look to see if they would be good conversion fodder. They're not. Although the bogie pivot spacing matches, the Irish cars had 10' wheelbase bogies whereas the GWR cars had 7' (early ones) or 8'6" (later ones). The overall lengths are different too, and there's no commonality of body style or dimensions even below the solebar.

The elevated signalbox is the outstanding feature in my view. Will that be swept away too? I suppose it will be in an isolated location once the new station opens.

If it would be easier for you to just photograph each page on your phone, I would be happy to transcribe the data into a spreadsheet / tabular format and post that on the forum for others to use. That would make it easier to search and filter the entries too.

Thanks again! I would be very interested to see the rest of that document. It's a couple of years later than the listing in Pender & Richards but crucially it's more complete as it includes pre-CIE stock, and more detailed regarding the fittings. A decade earlier than the first Doyle&Hirsch book in 1979, by which time there was very little pre-CIE stock left. Would there be any chance of you sharing the other pages on the forum?

Most interesting, thank you! It’s great to have an official source. Does that issue of the register have a date on it? I guess it must be 1960s or early 1970s?

Thanks, that's good to confirm that 1904 and 1905 remained unmodified. There were originally five of them in total. Having had another look through the thread, BSGSV's photo upthread shows that 1908 when withdrawn also had GSR type bogies and did not have a cab, so that remained unconverted. BSGSV says upthread that both 1906 and 1907 were both converted, but there were two phases of their use and the equipment was removed in between: Maybe only one was refitted with control equipment, but both retained the cab modifications? However, 1907 was destroyed in an accident in 1974. There are several photos prior to that, and of the wreckage post-accident, which show that 1907 had commonwealth bogies, cab windows and headlights.

I'm having another look at these driving trailers, and the info above is extremely useful. There are some inconsistencies in published sources about which coaches were converted from the batch of 5 (1904-1908). They weren't all rebuilt as photos show some unmodified ones in use in the 1960s. Pender & Richards say 2 coaches, 1907 and 1908 Colm Flanagan in Diesel dawn says 1 coach, 1906 BSGSV's post above says 2 coaches, 1906 and 1907 I am beginning to wonder whether 3 of these vehicles were converted, but perhaps not all at the same time. I'm going to do a trawl of photos as I've found quite a few more to add to those linked above. Some of the best ones not already in this thread are linked below 1907 was destroyed in an accident in 1974 and this photo shows the cab side window and door arrangement which replaced the ducket on one side. https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53527598229 Here's an intact one, earlier in life: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54253223013 Note that the door position has also been moved compared to an unmodified one: These photos compare the other side, not much changed here apart from the bogies and headlight: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54252109222/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/52959572973 I'm pulling together data for a thread on AEC trailer cars and will try to combine all the info on these.

There may be another thread to come on the AEC trailers. But not today - I’m just walking to Old Trafford to watch the last day of the test match.

In the last photo, note the 3 cattle wagons with sheets over them. My understanding is that horses are more skittish than cattle and didn't like watching the scenery go by at speed, so it was normal to sheet over a cattle wagon carrying horses. No doubt @Horsetan will tell us more! On the other hand, they might just be carrying general freight if there was a shortage of vans.

I agree. Considering the main fleet of AEC / Park Royal cars, there’s already a Silver Fox RTR model, although it has had mixed reviews. Worsley Works also make a basic set of etches but the distinctive cab curves are left to the builder to work out. IRM will probably (hopefully) make a top-quality model eventually. So there doesn’t seem much point scratchbuilding one. But the Wedgeheads were short-lived in their original form, only existed in small numbers, and their distinctive looks weren’t pretty. So an RTR or kit model is far less likely to be produced. This would make a scratchbuild more worthwhile. I am mulling over the idea of an etch.

While I was trawling books and websites for the Wedgeheads, I have also made a much longer list of photos of the AEC / Park Royal railcar fleet, again focusing on the green livery period. I may analyse that in a similar way in due course - there are some interesting variations in buffers and headlights as well as liveries. I've found about 50 colour photos of them in various shades of green, as well as a couple of hundred monochrome photos. The book 'Diesel Dawn' (Flanagan) includes a list of the coaches through-wired to work with them, which include: 10 pre-GSR coaches, the oldest from 1902 9 GSR coaches 51 CIE-built coaches 12 Park Royals 6 Cravens So now I have a challenge of finding photos showing each type in a railcar set. I've already found two photos of the clerestory diner which is one of the most distinctive. I am not sure whether the list in the book is thought to be complete For example it only lists 2 driving trailers, but I thought there were three. I may be mistaken.

The powered intermediates seem to have entered traffic in light green livery, just before the black and tan livery was introduced. The rebuilt cars were all second class, and their lined light green livery had a snail each side. Another difference from the unrebuilt cars was that the main part of the toilet window was painted green rather than white - this was also done on many of the AEC / Park Royal cars. It's important to note that there were 9 of them - 6 converted from the Wedgehead cars and 3 from AEC / Park Royal cars which had been accident-damaged. As far as I can tell, the rebuilds of the AEC / Park Royal cars replaced the windows with the same style as the Wedgehead cars, so that they were not so obviously different as one might think. To close out the Wedgehead story, here are some photos of the rebuilds in when new and whilst they retained their green livery: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305631 https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305580 https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53447301370/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772699/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510557012/ https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511453281/ There's also a colour photo in 'Diesel Dawn' (Flanagan) p101 As with the main AEC railcar fleet, they were converted into push-pull cars and 2664 (as 6316) was one of the last survivors in 1987.

Moving into February 1960, this NLI photo shows a wedgehead car being overhauled in Inchicore. The headlights have been removed from their low position: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000304878 This undated IRRS photo shows 2662 at Cork Glanmire Road. The headlights are in their higher position about mid-way between the bufferbeam and the cab windows. The car number has been repainted in large figures. However, the car still seems to be in unlined dark green with white toilet window, so I suspect that only the cab front was repainted: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53510559287/ This undated IRRS photo at Tivoli (by the same photographer) is probably the same car: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511772644/ It certainly has the same missing panels on the underframe. A photo of 2661 at Listowel appears in 'Rails Through North Kerry' (Beaumont/Carse) p75. It is dated summer 1961 and has its headlights in the higher position, but retains its small numbers and the car still seems to be in unlined dark green with white toilet window. There is a suggestion of patch painting around the old headlight position. So it appears that both 2661 and 2662 received their headlight modifications in early 1960 but retained their original livery. However, 2660 received a full repaint in 1960 to accompany its modified headlights. It was used on West Cork lines in their last few months including the very last train, so it became a bit of a celebrity and appears in several photos in this condition. @Westcorkrailway has gazumped me in the post above, which is perhaps the nicest view of its bright green livery with large running number, waist line and snail. Note also the black roof including the upper part of the front wedge. That photo from Ernie is at Cork Albert Quay on 12th September 1960. There are more photos of 2660 around Cork in this period: From Roger Joanes, 15th September 1960 at Bantry: IRRS photo at Albert Quay on 12th August 1960, also a colour image, which in comparison with Ernie's photo shows how the same shade of green can look quite different! https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511728190/ Here is 2660 in colour again, at Drimoleague in September 1960: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/54419890835/ And 2660 did sometimes escape the CBSCR, here probably heading for Cobh at Myrtle Hill: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511620958/ 2660 in this condition also appears in books on the CBSCR: Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway (Shepherd) p136, The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway Vol.3 (Creedon) p128, p129, p131. So far, that's all I've found of these cars with their Wedgehead cabs. In 1961 they were rebuilt into powered intermediate cars, losing their cabs. The cars without boilers also had their guard's vans replaced with more seating. This NLI photo dated 15th April 1961 shows three of them at Inchicore being rebuilt. The nearer one is still in unlined dark green livery: https://catalogue.nli.ie/Record/vtls000305443

Photos from 1958 and 1959 showing these vehicles are as follows: This IRRS photo at Inchicore dated November 1958 shows just part of the bodyside - who parked that kettle in the way? https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53506816536/ There's a photo of another wedgehead car at Harcourt Street in December 1958, this is in 'Rails around Dublin' (Murray) p59 2664 is seen at Enniscorthy in August 1959, in 'Railways in Ireland part 3: DSE/MGW' (Bairstow) p26, and the same car is also seen at Wexford North on p28 of the same book. An undated photo of 2661 in original condition at Newcastle West can also be found in 2 books: 'The Waterford, Limerick & Western Railway' (Shepherd) p29 and 'Railways in Ireland part 4: GS&W' (Bairstow) p45. Considering the railcar's condition, this photo is likely to be late 1950s. All the photos in the 1957-1959 period show the headlights in the low position just above the buffers. Later, they were raised. [The AEC / Park Royal railcars also had several different headlight configurations over their life.] You may have noticed that this thread is a bit short of photos actually linked in the thread. Sorry! There will be some later...

I have found myself going down a rabbithole looking for photos of these in the early years, while they still retained their driving cabs. I've got a fair number now, so I thought I would share the list of references. In this post I'll give a description and some 1957 photo references. The six railcars 2660 to 2665 were built at Inchicore and introduced to service in 1957. 2660-2662 are recorded as being completed in February, 2663 in March and the remaining two in April 1957. As with the AEC / Park Royal built cars, they had 12 first class seats, 32 second class, a toilet and a guard's van. Even-numbered cars had a steam heat boiler in the guard's van. The layout of the accommodation was the same as the AEC / Park Royal built cars. Visually they were rather different: Most obviously, the cab front was an angular wedge-shape rather than the smoothly rounded shape of the main fleet. The carbody was slightly taller and had flatter sides (though there was still a small curve in the lower bodyside). The windows had rounded corners, being similar to those fitted to the Inchicore-built carriages. The arrangement of vents on the roof was different, and with a smaller type of vent. They entered traffic in a dark green livery, with no lining. Class designations 1, 2 and GUARD were on the appropriate doors. Bogies were silver, and I think the roof was black. The toilet window was white. The clearest photo I've found in original condition shows 2664, brand new at Inchicore in 1957. This is in 'Bulleid and the Turf Burner' (Shepherd) p73. Another good photo shows 2663 at Cork Glanmire Road on 14th July 1957. This is in 'Irish Railways 40 Years of Change' (Boocock) p23 There is one IRRS photo dated 5th June 1957, at Inchicore, which shows 2664: https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishrailwayarchive/53511297171/ The only colour photo I've found in original condition shows an unidentified car at Kingsbridge in 1957, viewed from the other side compared to the three above. This is in 'Irish Railways in Colour' (Ferris) vol.1 p87 Finally for 1957, there is a photo of an unidentified car in a train at Clonakilty Junction. This appears in 'Cork Bandon & South Coast Railway' (Shepherd) p38 and 'The Cork, Bandon and South Coast Railway' Vol.3 (Creedon) p67

The 60 AEC / Park Royal railcars were supplied to CIE in 1952-1953. At the same time that Inchicore were busy building carriages to run with them. I know that some outsourced rolling stock was supplied complete and painted, whilst others were supplied complete but just in primer for Inchicore to paint. Some other orders had the first few supplied complete and the rest were supplied as 'kits' which were assembled and painted at Inchicore. What happened with the AEC railcars? Were they built and painted by AEC / Park Royal in the UK and shipped complete? Or did Inchicore contribute to the assembly and/or painting?

Continuing the topic of 1950s liveries, I stumbled across this post which is worth a read: This re-opens the prospect of multiple shades of green (not just light and dark) as well as describing different lining styles. I've been doing some more research on this myself recently based on photographs, and it might be interesting to try and cross-reference the statements in the above linked post with what appears in photos. However, I'm minded to wait until the old IRRS journals become available online, so that I can check back to the original news items and studies. Most photos from the early and mid 1950s are monochrome, though colour becomes more common in the late 1950s.

I'll send you a PM.